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Star Wars Disenchantment


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10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

... a lot of Lucas’ earlier drafts also read as very earnest...

 

How do you come to know about Lucas’ earlier drafts of the Saga Episodes? Have you read any of the novelizations?

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3 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

How do you come to know about Lucas’ earlier drafts of the Saga Episodes? Have you read any of the novelizations?

 

I know you're just a troll, but the novelizations don't mean crap.

 

If you want to learn about intentions, early drafts give you a much better indication of how things went.

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26 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

How do you come to know about Lucas’ earlier drafts of the Saga Episodes?

 

You can find them, they're available.

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On 26/01/2021 at 11:29 AM, SilverTrumpet said:

I know you're just a troll, but the novelizations don't mean crap.

 

If you want to learn about intentions, early drafts give you a much better indication of how things went.

 

Have you read the drafts and  the novelizations in order to compare them?

How do you know that 'the early drafts give a much better indication of how things went' than the novelizations?

Perhaps you can tell us about their differences/additions to the films.

How exactly did  things go with Star Wars?

And what does "the novelizations don't mean crap" even mean? Do you think they're all but worthless?

 

You think because @Jay calls me a troll, you feel justified to do so? Posting a lot - whilst staying on-topic - does not make me a troll. Regardless, you're lowering yourself to the level of name-calling.

 

On 26/01/2021 at 11:52 AM, Chen G. said:

You can find them, they're available.

 

That's not what I asked, @Chen G.. You certainly have a habit of avoiding answering simple, direct questions.

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The earlier drafts of Phantom Menace were actually pretty cool.

 

I also found some drafts in my college library back in the day...I thumbed through RotJ and was pretty amused by how desperate Kasdan was to inject some kind of gravitas into it. You get the feeling that he thought, "Alright George, won't let me kill Han? Let's see about this!" He tried killing Lando in like three different tries.

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On 26/01/2021 at 12:13 PM, Mattris said:

And what does "the novelizations don't mean crap" even mean? Do you think they're all but worthless?

 

They aren't written by Lucas, and yes, they pretty much are worthless. At least least for episodes 1-7.  I haven't read the ones for 8 and 9. 

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As far as I know (and no, @Mattris, I haven't read the novelizations) the novelizations tend to maintain things from earlier drafts. For instance, the novelization to Return of the Jedi maintains an extra bit of the exposition-dump-via-Alec-Guinness - written for the film but not used - where he says Owen Lars was actually his brother. <insert eye-roll here>

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For decades, George Lucas claimed author credit for the original Star Wars  novelization... until it was revealed that Alan Dean Foster was its ghostwriter. Even before Lucas sold his company, he only personally co-wrote the scripts for the films. He didn't personally write any of the Star Wars comics, novels, novelizations, etc. @Demodex, just because you didn't pick up on certain substantive inclusions in these works doesn't mean 'they are pretty much are worthless'. What an ignorant stance... but not an uncommon one.

 

Perhaps you are unaware of the novelization writing process. Once hired, the novelization authors have direct access to the drafts, alternate scripts, background notes, and the screenwriter(s) themselves. Assuming that the authors are allowed to 'make up' important details pertaining to the narrative and character arcs or that their novelizations include little-to-nothing of substance is incredibly ignorant. The contents of the novelizations is either specifically ordered and/or approved by Lucasfilm's management, the screenwriters, and the Lucasfilm Story Group (a recent addition to the company who collaborates with the writers and organizes the various volumes of canon).

 

The novelizations cannot be dismissed as 'a work by a person other than Lucas or the screenwriter, so it doesn't count.' Unless something in the novelization directly contradicts the film, it counts. This is why novelizations are released as opposed to just the movie scripts. These books present what the film couldn't or chose not to, at least in an on-the-nose manner. But the savviest of readers will notice the subtlety and substance on the canon... that is, once they know what to look for.

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If you've been an executive in any position of any job, you know that its your job to look over documents penned by your subordinates and give them the okay to proceed, without it meaning that you actually read through and hang unto every word of said document, particularly when its long and labyrinthine.

 

That's basically the nature of how Lucasfilm approves novelizations, not to mention expanded universe stuff.

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Novelizations are merchandise designed to advertise the movie. Basically they’re just the script of the movie with the barest effort taken to buff it up to the size of a novel. That’s why Lucas was listed as the author of the Star Wars novel, because the ghostwriter’s additions are insubstantial.

Screen Shot 2021-01-26 at 12.39.27 PM.png

Scintillating stuff.

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5 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

That’s why Lucas was listed as the author of the Star Wars novel, because the ghostwriter’s additions are insubstantial.

 

Also because its Lucas' "having the whole idea in his head." Early drafts/treatments of The Empire Strikes Back are said to be "from the novel by George Lucas", as if there's some George Lucas-penned Bible that the whole work derives from.

 

Having the novelization of the original film carry his name is also in service of this conceit.

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6 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

If you've been an executive in any position of any job, you know that its your job to look over documents penned by your subordinates and give them the okay to proceed, without it meaning that you actually read through and hang unto every word of said document, particularly when its long and labyrinthine.

 

That's basically the nature of how Lucasfilm approves novelizations, not to mention expanded universe stuff.

 

What evidence do you have that indicates that the Lucasfilm doesn't "hang unto every word" of the "long and labyrinthine" canon volumes, such as the film novelizations? You think not every word is read and approved? Which words do they not bother to read? This is why the Story Group exists, @Chen G.!

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16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Also because its Lucas' "having the whole idea in his head." Early drafts/treatments of The Empire Strikes Back are said to be "from the novel by George Lucas", as if there's some George Lucas-penned Bible that the whole work derives from.

 

Having the novelization of the original film carry his name is also in service of this conceit.

 

Ah well, that whole fiction of the Saga being Lucas’s story as he always intended it from the beginning was part of the mystique and part of the fun. It was to help the audience believe they were participating in something grand and meaningful. There’s some value in that approach, and I’m surprised Disney so thoroughly discarded it.

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On 1/26/2021 at 12:42 PM, Pellaeon said:

Novelizations are merchandise designed to advertise the movie. Basically they’re just the script of the movie with the barest effort taken to buff it up to the size of a novel. That’s why Lucas was listed as the author of the Star Wars novel, because the ghostwriter’s additions are insubstantial.

 

The novelizations do not  exist primarily "to advertise the movie". (Most Star Wars  fans don't even acknowledge them, much less buy or read them.) From experience, I can tell you that their main function is to present an alternate telling of the story, featuring specific (meaningful) language, inner thoughts, exposition, and extra scenes/dialog... all included to heighten the experience, compared to watching the two-hour film which has inherent limits in its presentation style.

 

Reducing the novelizations to "just the script of the movie with the barest effort taken to buff it up to the size of a novel" is incredibly ignorant... and a statement that will not age well.

 

Compared to what was presented in the scripts and films, you may have found the ghostwriter’s (or subsequent novelization authors') additions "insubstantial". But this doesn't mean that the novelizations are without unique substance or "Scintillating stuff." You just didn't notice it.

 

On 1/26/2021 at 1:09 PM, Pellaeon said:

Ah well, that whole fiction of the Saga being Lucas’s story as he always intended it from the beginning was part of the mystique and part of the fun. It was to help the audience believe they were participating in something grand and meaningful. There’s some value in that approach, and I’m surprised Disney so thoroughly discarded it.

 

Oh my, will you be surprised... but in a much different way than you are now.

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The Empire novelization calls Yoda blue, and the Jedi novelization has the most onomatopoeia per page of any book I've read.  Neither of them will just tell me what the brown hairy guy is saying already.

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8 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Oh my, will you be surprised... but in a much different way.

 

Will they be able to surprise me… when they have already lost me as a customer?

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56 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

There’s some value in that approach

 

Its false, idiotic, self-aggrandizing and assumes the fans are idiots to the point of buying this shite.

 

I happen to think a huge part of why Star Wars has a toxic fanbase, is that the very creator of the franchise played-into the hype himself - both with the "I had it all figured out out a giant script" and in all that mumbo-jumbo about Joseph Campbell and mythology.

 

When the creator treats his own creation like scripture, small wonder his fans do; and where there is scripture, there are heretics to be fought...

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2 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

Have you read the drafts and  the novelizations in order to compare them?

How do you know that 'the early drafts give a much better indication of how things went' than the novelizations?

Perhaps you can tell us about their differences/additions to the films.

How exactly did  things go with Star Wars?

And what does "the novelizations don't mean crap" even mean? Do you think they're all but worthless?

 

You think because @Jay calls me a troll, you feel justified to do so? Posting a lot - whilst staying on-topic - does not make me a troll. Regardless, you're lowering yourself to the level of name-calling.

 

 

That's not what I asked, @Chen G.. You certainly have a habit of avoiding answering simple, direct questions.

 

The drafts are not for the public, they're literally what was developed at one time. The novelizations are written after the fact. In the case of the sequels, way after the fact to patch up all the holes and bad plot points.

 

Also, I call you a troll because you very obviously are.

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On 26/01/2021 at 1:01 PM, Mattris said:

For decades, George Lucas claimed author credit for the original Star Wars  novelization...

 

So he's a liar. Great. 

 

The only novelization of the movies that may be worthwhile is TROS. Maybe it can explain all the crap in the film that didn't get an explanation like how Paplatine is still alive and who built all those Star Destroyers. And how the dagger was somehow able to show the location of the wayfinder. 

 

Otherwise the novels are a waste of time. 

 

 

Quote

Also, I call you a troll because you very obviously are.

 

Agreed. Someone who is not a troll would tell us his big secret finding so we could discuss it, since this is a discussion forum. 

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8 minutes ago, Demodex said:

So he's a liar. Great. 

 

 

Pathological!

 

See also the "I wrote all the movies out of one giant script!" and the "I'm going to make art films now!" schtick. He even lied to his buddy Spielberg by telling him he has three Indy movies for him to direct.

 

My chicken has more credibility than George Lucas.

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On 26/01/2021 at 3:07 PM, Demodex said:

So he's a liar. Great. 

 

The only novelization of the movies that may be worthwhile is TROS. Maybe it can explain all the crap in the film that didn't get an explanation like how Paplatine is still alive and who built all those Star Destroyers. And how the dagger was somehow able to show the location of the wayfinder. 

 

Otherwise the novels are a waste of time. 

 

George Lucas has told many truths and some lies about Star Wars. (Relatively soon, I suspect it will become clear why he did this.) But hiring a ghostwriter for the original novelization is hardly his worst offense.

 

Yes, the TROS novelization is a worthwhile read... but for so much more than the reasons you listed.

 

Emperor Palpatine was abundantly clear to Rey that he wanted her body as the next vessel for the Sith spirit. At the beginning of the film, clones of Snoke were shown in vats before Palpatine repeated his line from Revenge of the Sith, "The dark side is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."  The Resistance historian supposed that Palpatine had returned due to "Dark science, cloning, secrets only the Sith knew."  All of this points to the obvious: Palpatine had moved his spirit into a cloned body using the dark side. The novelization just confirms this.

 

"who built all those Star Destroyers" The most loyal supporters of Palpatine and the Sith (called the Sith Eternal), many of which were in attendance at the ceremony at the end of IX. Palpatine exclaimed to them, "Look what you have made!" And later, "Do not fear the feeble attack, my faithful. Nothing will stop the return of the Sith!"

 

"how the dagger was somehow able to show the location of the wayfinder." Made for the hired assassin/kidnapper, it was specifically designed to do just that. Inscribed upon it was the location on the moon/planet in which to stand to use the 'pointer'.

 

It's becoming increasing clear that contributing to this thread is "a waste of time" for me.

 

On 26/01/2021 at 3:02 PM, SilverTrumpet said:

The drafts are not for the public, they're literally what was developed at one time. The novelizations are written after the fact. In the case of the sequels, way after the fact to patch up all the holes and bad plot points.

 

Also, I call you a troll because you very obviously are.

 

I agree that a draft could be one version of the writer's story (screenplay, characters, details, etc.), revealing the process that led to the final version of the shooting script and the subsequent novelization, which usually contains elements/lines from drafts. So in that sense, a draft could be indicative of "how things went", assuming that it's authentic and not a distraction/misdirect, i.e. Trevorrow's IX.

 

I will take it that you didn't read the novelizations. So why say they "don't mean crap" when they "patch up all the holes and bad plot points"? It's my position that there are no plot holes in the sequels, only unresolved plots because the Saga will continue. And your opinion that some plot points are "bad" is irrelevant to reality...

 

... like this fact: I am not a troll. Calling me one does not make it so. But I will call you ignorant "because you very obviously are."

 

On 26/01/2021 at 2:58 PM, Chen G. said:

Its false, idiotic, self-aggrandizing and assumes the fans are idiots to the point of buying this shite.

 

I happen to think a huge part of why Star Wars has a toxic fanbase, is that the very creator of the franchise played-into the hype himself - both with the "I had it all figured out out a giant script" and in all that mumbo-jumbo about Joseph Campbell and mythology.

 

When the creator treats his own creation like scripture, small wonder his fans do; and where there is scripture, there are heretics to be fought...

 

Based on my research, I'm certain that George Lucas had the mythology and grand narrative of the Star Wars Saga "all figured out" from the beginning. Joseph Campbell's writings were a significant part of his inspiration.

 

It will be proven that most Star Wars fans were "idiotic" due to willful ignorance, assumptions, and pride... thoughts and feelings only bolstered with a hive-mind-like mentality. Fortunately, this reality can be beneficial  as each individual will have the opportunity to learn  from their mistakes, which as it turns out, will be one of the principal intended lessons of the Saga.

 

Once again, from the Revenge of the Sith  novelization, here is the last section of the "effective Jedi trap", with Star Wars fans representing 'the Jedi' in this analogy:

 

      And the final stroke of perfection is to organize the Jedi trap so that by walking into it at all, the Jedi has already lost.
      That is to say, a Jedi trap works best when one's true goal is merely to make sure that the Jedi in question spends some hours or days off somewhere on the far side of the galaxy. So that he won't be around to interfere with one's real plans.
       So that by the time he can return, it will be already too late.

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A quick search, and I see that the Olog-Hai ('troll-folk') from The Lord of the Rings "seldom spoke and never in any language other than the Black Tongue of Mordor." Since I speak incessantly and in the language of the Black Tongue of Lucasfilm, you're wrong once again, @Chen G.!  :P

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On the topic of the film novelisations, ROTS (not TROS, which I’ll briefly comment on in a second) is a particularly interesting case. Unlike the other books, George Lucas practically served as a co-writer by directing Matthew Stover to use pretty much all of the elements of an earlier 6 hour draft of ROTS. I hear it’s quite good and manages to serve as an alternate interpretation of the movie that is much more compelling and fleshed out

 

I find the TROS novel quite funny because in attempting to patch up the movie it created more holes. One that immediately comes to mind is making Rey’s father a failed clone of Palpatine...despite it looking nothing like him. I find it weird that a clone that had no force sensitivity and was practically useless wasn’t just immediately terminated by Palpatine.

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What you've heard about the Revenge of the Sith  novelization is true, @DarthDementous By far, it's my favorite of the novelizations... and, I would say, the most substantive. Every Star Wars  fan should read it, especially those that praise the film.

 

The Rise Of Skywalker novelization explains Rey's father from the perspective of Rey, who saw a glimpse of the Emperor's mind, as he was commanding her to kill him.

 

The heretics of the Sith Eternal "would do anything, risk anything, sacrifice anything to create a cradle for their god-consciousness".  Rey's father was the result of one of the experiments: "a not-quite-identical clone" and the only "genetic strandcast" that "lived, thrived even." While the Emperor considered the creation a "useless, powerless failure", it was allowed to live. "The boy's only worth would lay in continuing the bloodline through more natural methods." Rey was the result, who Emperor Palpatine felt would be "the perfect vessel. Strong enough to contain all the power of the Sith. His granddaughter..."

 

This explanation seemed clear to me, certainly not a "hole". What other holes did you perceive?

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Why would Palpatine want his bloodline continued by someone he considered a useless and powerless failure?

 

TROS did some really weird things to Palpatine’s character, in the original saga I never got the impression that he was interested in his legacy at all. Like many other Sith, he seemed like someone who wanted to live and rule eternally for his own sake as a result of the teachings of the Sith - not the other way around. The whole possession idea is incredibly strange, because why didn’t he do it with Anakin?

 

I always took Palpatine goading Luke to kill him as not him actually wanting to die, but rather trying to get Luke to give into his anger while fully believing that Vader would defend him. After all, he truly believed he has him completely under his control in that moment. The only change Palpatine desired was a more youthful and powerful apprentice, and if Luke died and Vader lived then so be it

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53 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

TROS did some really weird things to Palpatine’s character.

 

Fixed.

 

The Rise of Skywalker did weird things to just about every character and every story thread.

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:lol: That is true. What I found really funny was Palpatine changing his motivations again in the movie itself! He goes from wanting Kylo Ren to bring Rey to him alive, to wanting him to kill her, to wanting to rule the galaxy, to wanting to destroy it - I just can't keep up, maybe the poor lad has Dementia

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15 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

He goes from wanting Kylo Ren to bring Rey to him alive, to wanting him to kill her, to wanting to rule the galaxy, to wanting to destroy it - I just can't keep up

 

Yes! That was exactly what I was thinking when I was watching it. The pace is so breakneck that ocassionally its surprisingly hard to follow: there was a point there when Palpatine is changing his agenda AND the Resistance are trying to blow-up one specific Star Destroyer 'cause reasons that I was thinking "I have no idea what's going on anymore, I'll just take this sequence as a lightshow."

 

Bad movie.

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27 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Yes! That was exactly what I was thinking when I was watching it. The pace is so breakneck that ocassionally its surprisingly hard to follow: there was a point there when Palpatine is changing his agenda AND the Resistance are trying to blow-up one specific Star Destroyer 'cause reasons that I was thinking "I have no idea what's going on anymore, I'll just take this sequence as a lightshow."

 

Bad movie.

Him deciding to make the first planet he blows up Kijmi was the icing on the cake because you can tell it was done because the audience was just on the planet and was familiar with it, as opposed to it having any significance whatsoever for Palpatine himself. If anything he should've immediately hyper-spaced into Coruscant and wiped it out given the importance to the Resistance as well as ensuring that if he can't have the golden throne then no one can (which...if his goal is to conquer the galaxy that would make no sense but then again this seems perfectly consistent with TROS Palpatine's internal logic :P)

At least Alderaan and the Hosnian System were strategic first demonstrations of the planet-destroying super-weapon! Kijmi was under control of the First Order which just made it even more ridiculous of a target

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What details do we know of Lucas' sequel trilogy concepts?  Not the general comments that Mark Hamill has made forty years ago but do we know what he originally suggested to Kennedy/Disney?  Might it perhaps one day get released in a graphic novel like his original draft of Star Wars did?

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On 1/28/2021 at 4:11 PM, DarthDementous said:

Why would Palpatine want his bloodline continued by someone he considered a useless and powerless failure?

 

I already told you. The novelization explains, "The boy's only worth would lay in continuing the bloodline through more natural methods."

 

On 1/28/2021 at 4:11 PM, DarthDementous said:

TROS did some really weird things to Palpatine’s character, in the original saga I never got the impression that he was interested in his legacy at all. Like many other Sith, he seemed like someone who wanted to live and rule eternally for his own sake as a result of the teachings of the Sith - not the other way around. The whole possession idea is incredibly strange, because why didn’t he do it with Anakin?

 

There is no "original saga". These latest entries are part of the Star Wars Saga. Palpatine doesn't care about his family "legacy". He only cares about himself and the specific

methods that suit his own ends.

 

Anakin's debilitating injuries and disfigurements made Palpatine abandon the hope of possessing him. The new Darth Vader was reduced to a enforcer agent of the Empire and subject of further dark side manipulation.

 

On 1/28/2021 at 4:11 PM, DarthDementous said:

I always took Palpatine goading Luke to kill him as not him actually wanting to die, but rather trying to get Luke to give into his anger while fully believing that Vader would defend him. After all, he truly believed he has him completely under his control in that moment. The only change Palpatine desired was a more youthful and powerful apprentice, and if Luke died and Vader lived then so be it

 

If Vader hadn't defended Palpatine from Luke, the Emperor would have been destroyed forever? Palpatine didn't have Luke "completely under his control", as he didn't affect Luke's free will. In a single battle, Emperor Palpatine baited Vader, Luke, and the Rebel fleet to kill him. You're not giving this manipulative, over-confident villain enough credit for his role in these stories.

 

Context clues throughout the Saga have indicated to the audience Palpatine's desires: to rule the galaxy and live forever. His intentions to move his consciousness into suitable vessels (to prolong his life) has finally been made canon, but Dark Empire foreshadowed this very concept. In TROS, Emperor Palpatine was abundantly clear of his intentions and to Rey, repeated the command to Luke decades prior: "Strike me down!" ... with severe consequences.

 

On 1/28/2021 at 5:04 PM, Chen G. said:

The Rise of Skywalker did weird things to just about every character and every story thread.

 

You were supposed take this as a major clue... and a suggestion to take a closer look at "just about every character and every story thread."

 

On 1/28/2021 at 5:12 PM, DarthDementous said:

:lol: That is true. What I found really funny was Palpatine changing his motivations again in the movie itself! He goes from wanting Kylo Ren to bring Rey to him alive, to wanting him to kill her, to wanting to rule the galaxy, to wanting to destroy it - I just can't keep up, maybe the poor lad has Dementia

 

When did Palpatine say he wanted Kylo Ren to bring Rey to him alive? Palpatine offered Kylo Ren his new Empire if he killed Rey and said nothing about 'destroying the galaxy'.

 

On 1/28/2021 at 5:28 PM, Chen G. said:

Yes! That was exactly what I was thinking when I was watching it. The pace is so breakneck that ocassionally its surprisingly hard to follow: there was a point there when Palpatine is changing his agenda AND the Resistance are trying to blow-up one specific Star Destroyer 'cause reasons that I was thinking "I have no idea what's going on anymore, I'll just take this sequence as a lightshow."

 

Bad movie.

 

That's just it. Palpatine never changed his agenda. You - and Rey - were simply being made aware of it.

 

On 1/28/2021 at 5:52 PM, DarthDementous said:

Him deciding to make the first planet he blows up Kijmi was the icing on the cake because you can tell it was done because the audience was just on the planet and was familiar with it, as opposed to it having any significance whatsoever for Palpatine himself. If anything he should've immediately hyper-spaced into Coruscant and wiped it out given the importance to the Resistance as well as ensuring that if he can't have the golden throne then no one can (which...if his goal is to conquer the galaxy that would make no sense but then again this seems perfectly consistent with TROS Palpatine's internal logic :P)

At least Alderaan and the Hosnian System were strategic first demonstrations of the planet-destroying super-weapon! Kijmi was under control of the First Order which just made it even more ridiculous of a target

 

Palpatine ordered "a world they know" to be destroyed. Kijimi wasn't simply "under control of the First Order". It had just harbored the fugitives, so General Pryde selected it for the demonstration. Destroying Coruscant would have no significance to this story, and Palpatine would have likely wanted to retake it for himself.

 

1 hour ago, karelm said:

What details do we know of Lucas' sequel trilogy concepts?  Not the general comments that Mark Hamill has made forty years ago but do we know what he originally suggested to Kennedy/Disney?  Might it perhaps one day get released in a graphic novel like his original draft of Star Wars did?

 

Three excerpts from a recently-released book entitled Star Wars: Fascinating Facts, written by the head of the Lucasfilm Story Group:

 

"The Force Awakens'  long journey from idea to finished film was filled with evolution, but one idea that remained constant from the start was that of a young woman's quest to become a Jedi Knight."

 

"Although Luke Skywalker only barely appears in The Force Awakens, the concept artists had a lot to imagine based on the fragments of the story they were hearing as it developed. Rey was on a mission to seek out Luke Skywalker, who had disappeared. As described by George Lucas, Rey is like Willard going up river seeking out Colonel Kurtz, an allusion to Apocalypse Now. The story had Rey find Luke on a Jedi temple planet, but he is a recluse, withdrawn into a very dark space and needs to be drawn back from despair."

 

"Years before The Last Jedi  began development, the treatment left behind by George Lucas in 2012 also had Episode VIII be the one wherein Luke Skywalker would die."

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1 hour ago, karelm said:

What details do we know of Lucas' sequel trilogy concepts?  Not the general comments that Mark Hamill has made forty years ago but do we know what he originally suggested to Kennedy/Disney?  Might it perhaps one day get released in a graphic novel like his original draft of Star Wars did?


Plenty of minor details about the latter day sequel ideas exist in the sequel Art Of books, Lucas comments.  The story was originally about two teenagers named Kira and Sam.  Luke was going to be a Colonel Kurtz-esque hermit who lived in a cave.  It was going to deal in some way with the “microbiotic world” (ie midichlorians).  No actual plot details have leaked, I don’t believe - it would be a fascinating read.

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On 1/26/2021 at 5:29 PM, Chen G. said:

 For instance, the novelization to Return of the Jedi maintains an extra bit of the exposition-dump-via-Alec-Guinness - written for the film but not used - where he says Owen Lars was actually his brother. <insert eye-roll here>

 

Owen Lars was Obi Wan's brother...from a certain point of view.


 

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1 hour ago, mstrox said:

Plenty of minor details about the latter day sequel ideas exist in the sequel Art Of books, Lucas comments.  The story was originally about two teenagers named Kira and Sam.  Luke was going to be a Colonel Kurtz-esque hermit who lived in a cave.

 

Those aren't ideas for the sequel trilogy: they're ideas for Episode VII, specifically. In earlier iterations, Kira/Rey would have found Luke about halfway through VII.
 

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

It was going to deal in some way with the “microbiotic world” (ie midichlorians).  No actual plot details have leaked, I don’t believe - it would be a fascinating read.

 

Unlike those other ideas, which are backed-up by concept art, the notion of the sequel trilogy being in any way about "microbiotic world" comes purely from Lucas, and should be taken with a grain of salt the size of Starkiller Base.

 

Its not even consistent with the most recent things Lucas said about what the sequel trilogy would have been about. Now it was suddenly going to be about organized crime and the return of Darth Maul.

 

In short...

 

4lz1te.jpg

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@Mattris Most of those were reasonable rebuttals, except for the following:

 

Quote

Me: "Why would Palpatine want his bloodline continued by someone he considered a useless and powerless failure?"
You: "
I already told you. The novelization explains, "The boy's only worth would lay in continuing the bloodline through more natural methods."


I asked for an explanation, whereas you just told me what I'm already aware the novel says. I asked why Palpatine would want to continue his bloodline through the failed clone, and your answer was because that's what he did, which if we were to follow that line of logic then anything that ever happens in the novel is automatically valid because that's what happened in the novel. Which ignores that unlike real life, fiction can be contradictory and break the suspension of disbelief.

 

Quote

Me: "I always took Palpatine goading Luke to kill him as not him actually wanting to die, but rather trying to get Luke to give into his anger while fully believing that Vader would defend him. After all, he truly believed he has him completely under his control in that moment. The only change Palpatine desired was a more youthful and powerful apprentice, and if Luke died and Vader lived then so be it"

You: "If Vader hadn't defended Palpatine from Luke, the Emperor would have been destroyed forever? Palpatine didn't have Luke "completely under his control", as he didn't affect Luke's free will. In a single battle, Emperor Palpatine baited Vader, Luke, and the Rebel fleet to kill him. You're not giving this manipulative, over-confident villain enough credit for his role in these stories."

 

I'm more just confused than anything here. I said that Palpatine fully believed Vader would defend him, hence the cockiness in telling Luke to kill him. I see now that my phrasing was misleading, because when I said 'he truly believed he has him completely under his control' I was referring to Vader not Luke.

 

Quote

Me: ":lol: That is true. What I found really funny was Palpatine changing his motivations again in the movie itself! He goes from wanting Kylo Ren to bring Rey to him alive, to wanting him to kill her, to wanting to rule the galaxy, to wanting to destroy it - I just can't keep up, maybe the poor lad has Dementia"

You: "
When did Palpatine say he wanted Kylo Ren to bring Rey to him alive? Palpatine offered Kylo Ren his new Empire if he killed Rey and said nothing about 'destroying the galaxy'."


I'll admit my memory of TROS is hazy, but if the order didn't go 'Palpatine wants Rey alive' -> 'Palpatine wants Kylo to kill Rey' but instead the reverse, then the issue still stands that he's completely switched his motivations. There's certainly no indication that Palpatine didn't think Rey was his daughter and that he wasn't aware of her power, so why decide to have Kylo kill her instead of being brought so he can possess her? That's the inconsistency I'm talking about


 

Quote

Me: "Him deciding to make the first planet he blows up Kijmi was the icing on the cake because you can tell it was done because the audience was just on the planet and was familiar with it, as opposed to it having any significance whatsoever for Palpatine himself. If anything he should've immediately hyper-spaced into Coruscant and wiped it out given the importance to the Resistance as well as ensuring that if he can't have the golden throne then no one can (which...if his goal is to conquer the galaxy that would make no sense but then again this seems perfectly consistent with TROS Palpatine's internal logic :P)

At least Alderaan and the Hosnian System were strategic first demonstrations of the planet-destroying super-weapon! Kijmi was under control of the First Order which just made it even more ridiculous of a target"

You: "
Palpatine ordered "a world they know" to be destroyed. Kijimi wasn't simply "under control of the First Order". It had just harbored the fugitives, so General Pryde selected it for the demonstration. Destroying Coruscant would have no significance to this story, and Palpatine would have likely wanted to retake it for himself."


Why of all planets was Kijmi the most relevant? Who was Palpatine trying to send a message too - Rey? The Resistance? If it's the former then why not Jakku, if it's the latter then why not anywhere with strategic importance?

If Palpatine wanted to re-take Coruscant then why did he build an armada purely designed to blow up every planet in the galaxy? Either the inhabitants surrender of they fight back and you have to completely obliterate it, that's the dichotomy you introduce with a super-weapon for every planet




I'll admit that I'm biased in the sense that I don't like the retcon that Palpatine can possess people because it colours the previous events of the saga in a way I find unfavourable. So I'm doing my best to try and take it as it is and analyse whether it works in the confines of the existing saga, and I can't see anything too canon-breaking, except the idea of requiring him to be struck down in anger in order to transfer introduces a lot of problems, because Vader did strike him down in anger and instead his essence went into...another clone body. It's just not very clear how the mechanics of that work at all, and the movie doesn't bother justifying it either

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7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Three excerpts from a recently-released book entitled Star Wars: Fascinating Facts, written by the head of the Lucasfilm Story Group:

"The Force Awakens'  long journey from idea to finished film was filled with evolution, but one idea that remained constant from the start was that of a young woman's quest to become a Jedi Knight."

"Although Luke Skywalker only barely appears in The Force Awakens, the concept artists had a lot to imagine based on the fragments of the story they were hearing as it developed. Rey was on a mission to seek out Luke Skywalker, who had disappeared. As described by George Lucas, Rey is like Willard going up river seeking out Colonel Kurtz, an allusion to Apocalypse Now. The story had Rey find Luke on a Jedi temple planet, but he is a recluse, withdrawn into a very dark space and needs to be drawn back from despair."

"Years before The Last Jedi  began development, the treatment left behind by George Lucas in 2012 also had Episode VIII be the one wherein Luke Skywalker would die."

 

Thanks!  I saw an interview with Kennedy where she mentioned not taking all of Lucas' ideas but the bulk of them seemed to be used and developed though with their twist of it which wasn't a horrible thing.  I'm of the opinion that:

1. The original trilogy was fantastic because Lucas' ideas were refined by others. 

2. The flaw of The Prequel Trilogy was Lucas failed to heed/ignored feedback.  I assume the original script of Star Wars ANH would have suffered from these same flaws.

3. The flaw of TST is they didn't take Lucas' ideas into account enough.

 

 

7 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

Owen Lars was Obi Wan's brother...from a certain point of view.

 

Owen Lars was Obi Wan's lover...from a certain point of view too.

 

7 hours ago, mstrox said:


Plenty of minor details about the latter day sequel ideas exist in the sequel Art Of books, Lucas comments.  The story was originally about two teenagers named Kira and Sam.  Luke was going to be a Colonel Kurtz-esque hermit who lived in a cave.  It was going to deal in some way with the “microbiotic world” (ie midichlorians).  No actual plot details have leaked, I don’t believe - it would be a fascinating read.

Agreed.  I wish the sequels had about 50% more of Lucas.  Not too much but a more would have been welcome.

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6 hours ago, karelm said:

Thanks!  I saw an interview with Kennedy where she mentioned not taking all of Lucas' ideas but the bulk of them seemed to be used and developed though with their twist of it which wasn't a horrible thing.  I'm of the opinion that:

1. The original trilogy was fantastic because Lucas' ideas were refined by others. 

2. The flaw of The Prequel Trilogy was Lucas failed to heed/ignored feedback.  I assume the original script of Star Wars ANH would have suffered from these same flaws.

3. The flaw of TST is they didn't take Lucas' ideas into account enough.


I don’t like the explanation that, basically, the classic trilogy, much less the original film, was good in spite of Lucas: it strikes me as simplistic. While his friends and colleagues suggested ideas onto him during the scripting phase, the original film is still manifestly his: I haven’t heard of a single instance of anyone on-set disagreeing with Lucas and getting his way.

 

By contrast, there definitely are instances in the prequel trilogy where Lucas collaborated with his cast (I remember reading it was Liam Neeson’s idea for Qui-Gon to put a hand on Shmi’s shoulder) and his crew: virtually all the design was a collaborative effort.

 

I also think it’s Lucas preliminary work on Episode VII, largely retained by Disney, that led to the sequel trilogy being as referential as it is. I mean, look at the story Lucas was concocting: we have young-orphan-with-magic-powers-from-a-backwaters-planet, a sidekick, a reclusive-old-warrior to be found, and a villain connected by blood to the heroes. So it doesn’t have Starkiller Base, big deal: the basic storyline is still the same.

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  • 7 months later...

On 12/12/2019 at 1:07 AM, Mattris said:
"She will never be a Jedi, nor did she ever want to be one."

 

  On 12/12/2019 at 1:47 AM, Mattris said:
"Anyone who thinks the trilogy to end the Star Wars Saga will feature a 'nobody from nowhere' who saves the day and takes the Skywalker name - or anything of the sort - will be proven wildly misguided. Trust me, JJ and Lucasfilm know better. Like the Emperor, JJ has something special planned."

 

On 18/09/2021 at 6:11 PM, SilverTrumpet said:

lol

 

On 19/09/2021 at 9:01 AM, SilverTrumpet said:

Jay linked this among others in the Dune thread and somehow I ended up on that amazing prediction and just had to share! 

 

@SilverTrumpet, I stand by the statements you quoted in the TROS Spoilers Thread.

 

Rey was not 'a nobody'. She was revealed to have been a blood relative of Emperor Palpatine. Yes, she took the Skywalker name, but that doesn't change reality, which is more harsh than most can, as of yet, wrap their minds around.

 

At no point during TFA or TLJ  did Rey express that she wanted to become a Jedi. Luke gave her lessons to explain why the Jedi Order should end - not how to be a Jedi.

 

In order to designate Rey as a Jedi at the end of TROS, one would have to define what is required to be a Jedi. Is studying/following the sacred Jedi texts and building a lightsaber enough? Perhaps killing a Sith Master who wanted to be killed  earns her an honorary title.

 

On 27/09/2021 at 10:48 AM, Giftheck said:

Indeed it is! Now, if you'll all line up in single file, you will each receive a bat with which to beat this dead horse with.

 

Yes, it is that time of year!  And unbeknownst to the naïve masses, this horse is as dead as the Sith Order is extinct.

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I'm not here to amuse you, @Chen G., nor do I wish to spoil things for you. But I'm curious...

 

When John Williams spoke to his Hollywood Bowl audience at the end of August 2019, he was quite praiseworthy of JJ's work on Episode IX when saying the director was "doing a fantastic job. I won't say anything about it except the ending, I think, will just put you all away. I think you will love it."

 

... what do you think John Williams meant by that?

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Star Wars:

 

Original trilogy: absolute classic

Prequel trilogy: ambitious, decent concept, not well executed

Disney trilogy: fun but forgettable, suffers from being made up as they went.

 

What are you guys still arguing about?

 

Just listen to the music, the best thing there is from these movies.

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7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

You mean, like EVERY Star Wars trilogy?

 

I believe the original and prequel had more of an initial arc planned than the Disney.

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