Jump to content

Star Wars Disenchantment


John
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

I'm not here to amuse you, @Chen G., nor do I wish to spoil things for you. But I'm curious...

 

When John Williams spoke to his Hollywood Bowl audience at the end of August 2019, he was quite praiseworthy of JJ's work on Episode IX when saying the director was "doing a fantastic job. I won't say anything about it except the ending, I think, will just put you all away. I think you will love it."

 

... what do you think John Williams meant by that?

 

I think he meant that he thought JJ was doing a fantastic job. That he won't say anything about it except the ending. He thinks that it will put us all away, and that he thinks we will love it. I think that's what he meant.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Bellosh said:

I believe the original and prequel had more of an initial arc planned than the Disney.

 

And yet the classic trilogy is the only Star Wars trilogy that was completely reconcieved between its first two entries: the whole concept had changed. The transition from Star Wars to The Empire Strikes is at once a transition between two directors with a very different styles, a major leap in budget, a transition from an unpresumptous B-movie for kids to something much more serious-feeling, from an episodic narrative to a cyclical one, as well as introducing more continuity hiccups than anyone could ever count.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Bellosh said:

Disney trilogy: fun but forgettable, suffers from being made up as they went.

I don't think, that this being made up as they went would have been necessarily an issue.

 

The issues are rather somewhere else:

  • JJ Abrams approached the sequels rather as reboot than as sequels (similar to his Star Treks)
  • If you have different writers and directors you need at least something like a show runner pulling it all together like Lucas for the OT.
  • Way too much fan service and references without continuing the story. Basically, awful writing. If you could hire the best writers in the world why chose JJ Abrams?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because to people in the industry, JJ Abrams is a consummate professional and actually I don't think it's even really true when people say "They could get the best writers in the world." The best writers in the world don't want to write Star Wars sequels. You can get the most credible industry hacks -- which is a more lofty title than it sounds, really, basically your James Mangolds and yes, your JJ Abramses and Chris Terrios -- or occasionally you can entertain a discussion with someone who has more of an idiosyncratic voice in genre filmmaking, arguably a Rian Johnson, but of course that starts to run a greater risk of being divisive or worse as we know too well. I mean, George Lucas, it took forever for anybody to find silver linings in the prequels and basically came down to seeing what a more homogenized Star Wars looked like.  Everybody also tends to ignore that Lawrence Kasdan and Michael Arndt also co-wrote TFA, two of Kennedy's best gets who naturally didn't stick around long.

 

And by the way, for Force Awakens, they did try to get another high quality Hollywood writer/director and that was Brad Bird and he turned them down for Tomorrowland which is generally nothing great even though he is inarguably a great talent. And he's the one who goes off championing Colin Trevorrow of all people. So there's literally no accounting for taste and as cliche as it is, things like friendships and professional relationships go a longer way most of the time. It'd be a pretty easy stance to defend settling for an amiable and slightly mediocre product over a potential genre masterpiece when you're considering working with someone in real life for the better part of 2-3 years. Kennedy talked to David Fincher ffs, he ultimately wasn't into it. And to just about anybody in town, getting their hands on JJ Abrams would not be considered any sort of compromise. By the time Episode IX was in flames in 2017, Kennedy was positively desperate to get him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

I think he meant that he thought JJ was doing a fantastic job. That he won't say anything about it except the ending. He thinks that it will put us all away, and that he thinks we will love it. I think that's what he meant.

 

You honestly believe that John Williams thought that a well-intentioned Rey Palpatine killing (out-of-nowhere and with a death-wish) Emperor Palpatine in a screaming fit of rage  and taking the Skywalker surname - after the last members of the family had died - to end the Star Wars Saga would be 'loved' by its audience?

 

Either you're missing something (major) or John Williams doesn't understand the sentiment, hope, and expectations of the Star Wars fandom... at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Mattris said:

or John Williams doesn't understand the sentiment, hope, and expectations of the Star Wars fandom... at all.

 

At this rate, I don't think I'd want him to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TBH, I don't think John Williams misunderstands anything fundamental regarding Star Wars. The fans, however...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Mattris said:

I'm not here to amuse you, @Chen G., nor do I wish to spoil things for you. But I'm curious...

 

When John Williams spoke to his Hollywood Bowl audience at the end of August 2019, he was quite praiseworthy of JJ's work on Episode IX when saying the director was "doing a fantastic job. I won't say anything about it except the ending, I think, will just put you all away. I think you will love it."

 

... what do you think John Williams meant by that?

 

Also don't forget Williams scored different versions of the film... And, as @Manakin Skywalkersays, the man is old and doesn't care about the fandom nor the controversial script decisions. 

 

For me, IX is a very bad film but I also think II and III are very bad films. I think that VIII is very, very good I'm very happy that Disney bought Lucasfilm just for that movie. I enjoy VII, which I think have more good things than bad.

 

But, for example, I don't care about Mandalorian and the whole Filoni production. I'm happy that there're people that enjoy them, but I don't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

 

Palpatine's TV Set. Yeah, I remember that scene. :lol:

JW: now George, what exactly is going on here?

GL: oh, well, here we have Anakin who gets together with Palpatine and they're sort of watching a television show as Palpatine gives him a bit of a history lesson on his life and we're working on a huge performance for them to watch, all done with a computer of course.

JW: oh ok, I see... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

The man's almost 90 years old and doesn't watch these films aside from working on them. I can guarantee he doesn't know anything about the fandom and wouldn't give two shits anyway. He simply assumed the ending we got was the perfect ending the fans wanted. If you think he's returning to score more films in his 100's then you're nuts.

 

Of course if you're working on a project and want it to succeed (like actors on a press tour) you're going to talk up to it, even if you don't like the product. Obviously he's not going to trash talk the film even if he knows it's not great, because he's too respectful to do that.

 

The man's age has nothing to do with his process to compose or his knowledge of Star Wars or its fanbase. You can't guarantee anything because you know nothing more than the average John Williams fan or Star Wars fan. Prove me wrong.

 

6 hours ago, DrTenma said:

Also don't forget Williams scored different versions of the film... And, as @Manakin Skywalkersays, the man is old and doesn't care about the fandom nor the controversial script decisions. 

 

For me, IX is a very bad film but I also think II and III are very bad films. I think that VIII is very, very good I'm very happy that Disney bought Lucasfilm just for that movie. I enjoy VII, which I think have more good things than bad.

 

But, for example, I don't care about Mandalorian and the whole Filoni production. I'm happy that there're people that enjoy them, but I don't.

 

What proof do you have that "Williams scored different versions of the film"? What "controversial script decisions"?

 

You're opinion of select Star Wars episodes/shows/etc. is, quite frankly, irrelevant. It's one's interpretation  of the narrative that's critical to understanding the great mystery.

 

"All sorts of mysteries have been unraveled in the course of these."

- John Williams, 2019

 

Anyone thinking that the mysteries of Star Wars have no more significant 'unraveling' - at least in the relative short term - will be proven widely mistaken. Just watch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, mrbellamy said:

 And by the way, for Force Awakens, they did try to get another high quality Hollywood writer/director and that was Brad Bird and he turned them down for Tomorrowland which is generally nothing great even though he is inarguably a great talent.

I'd take Bird's Tomorrowland any day over another Star Wars sequel. With Tomorrowland he took a chance on writing something new whereas Star Wars is doomed to be the same by the very fandom that supports it.

 

The problem isn't getting competent writers, the problem is solely a lack of creative intent. Lucas wasn't the greatest writer, but it was his artistic will that brought Star Wars about, not fifty executives who want to milk an already empty franchise. Yes, he had to convince the studios, but it was his vision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Lucas was as much the businessman as any executive in Hollywood history, so I’m not sure as to the point you’re making here.

My point, Chen, is that it was Lucas' initiative, his creative vision. No one told him to write a Star Wars film. Where these sequels and spin-offs fail is in how they have begun with someone else's work and a directive from above. If the heart isn't there, you're left with half-baked ideas and a studio who'll dictate the rest for you. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

My point, Chen, is that it was Lucas' initiative, his creative vision. No one told him to write a Star Wars film. Where these sequels and spin-offs fail is in how they have begun with someone else's work and a directive from above. If the heart isn't there, you're left with half-baked ideas and a studio who'll dictate the rest for you. 

 

I implore you not to worry, @Arpy. George Lucas created Star Wars, ultimately, to leave its audience with hope and happiness. It is my educated assessment that those currently in charge of Lucasfilm have continued the story and lore in this direction. I truly think the majority of fans will be pleasantly surprised where this all leads.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Kasey Kockroach said:

If you die from blood loss, you totally die.

Is that a Fate reference? Lol, that series is infamous for so many bad translations

 

31 minutes ago, Mattris said:

 

I implore you not to worry, @Arpy. George Lucas created Star Wars, ultimately, to leave its audience with hope and happiness. It is my educated assessment that those currently in charge of Lucasfilm have continued the story and lore in this direction. I truly think the majority of fans will be pleasantly surprised where this all leads.

I’m not even annoyed anymore, I just feel bad that you’ve had to latch onto this alternate narrative because the truth that a franchise I’m sure you’re very attached to is currently in a really bad place, is too hard to face.

 

It does suck but there is always hope things will turn around, it just needs the right people. In the meantime this is a good opportunity to check out and fall in love with completely new pieces of entertainment. No need to end up in an abusive relationship with your media, there’s enough of that in the real world :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DarthDementous said:

... I just feel bad that you’ve had to latch onto this alternate narrative because the truth that a franchise I’m sure you’re very attached to is currently in a really bad place, is too hard to face.

 

It does suck but there is always hope things will turn around, it just needs the right people. In the meantime this is a good opportunity to check out and fall in love with completely new pieces of entertainment. No need to end up in an abusive relationship with your media, there’s enough of that in the real world :P

 

Mark my words, it has already been proven that Lucasfilm has the right people. You just don't know it yet.

 

"I just feel bad" that so many Star Wars fans basically gave up  after (any one of) these latest unexpected/undesired films. (Before this, the prequels turned off many, and they were personally made by the creator.)

 

Reading, researching, questioning, and serious contemplation is, apparently, too much to ask.  Instead, far too many fans chose to worry, complain, assume, and interpret these stories on a relative surface level.

 

Big mistake.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Mattris said:

What proof do you have that "Williams scored different versions of the film"? What "controversial script decisions"?

 

You're opinion of select Star Wars episodes/shows/etc. is, quite frankly, irrelevant. It's one's interpretation  of the narrative that's critical to understanding the great mystery.

 

"All sorts of mysteries have been unraveled in the course of these."

- John Williams, 2019

 

Anyone thinking that the mysteries of Star Wars have no more significant 'unraveling' - at least in the relative short term - will be proven widely mistaken. Just watch.

 

 

Well, we have the leaked recording sessions names/states in this forum that indicates that the movie was edited differently. For clarification: I don't mean he saw a movie where Rey was the daughter of Chewey and Kylo was a clone of Anakin, I simply mean that it was a different version.

 

The "controversial script decisions" are the returning of Palpatine, the whole Rey Palpatine, the Wayfinders... I really mean the full script.

 

I know my opinion is irrelevant, as any opinion. I was just adding things into the conversation. At the end these are movies of space wizards and I try not to take them very serious... 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mattris said:

Mark my words, it has already been proven that Lucasfilm has the right people. You just don't know it yet.

 

"I just feel bad" that so many Star Wars fans basically gave up  after (any one of) these latest unexpected/undesired films. (Before this, the prequels turned off many, and they were personally made by the creator.)

 

Reading, researching, questioning, and serious contemplation is, apparently, too much to ask.  Instead, far too many fans chose to worry, complain, assume, and interpret these stories on a relative surface level.

 

Big mistake.

I would say, the major difference between the prequels and the sequels was that the prequels became better with each movie and the sequels got worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, DrTenma said:

Well, we have the leaked recording sessions names/states in this forum that indicates that the movie was edited differently. For clarification: I don't mean he saw a movie where Rey was the daughter of Chewey and Kylo was a clone of Anakin, I simply mean that it was a different version.

 

The "controversial script decisions" are the returning of Palpatine, the whole Rey Palpatine, the Wayfinders... I really mean the full script.

 

I know my opinion is irrelevant, as any opinion. I was just adding things into the conversation. At the end these are movies of space wizards and I try not to take them very serious...

 

What evidence exists that indicates there were "multiple versions of the film"?

 

Didn't the "leaked recording sessions names" and slate numbers leak on the same day  as Colin Trevorrow's Episode IX script, along with hi-res scans of its concept art?  What a day for leaks!

 

Of course, a 'leak' implies an that either an employee broke an NDA (deliberately or accidentally) or security was breached. Could you fathom that Lucasfilm intentionally released these documents to make them look (even more) incompetent? I can.

 

What you consider "controversial script decisions", I call expected inclusions.  In fact, I was the only person on these forums to predict Palpatine's return to the Saga and that Rey would be directly related to him. Many forum members called me crazy and took the time to drive the point home. But I was right.

 

Since then, I have shared other observations and predictions that have not been confirmed in canon (yet). But given my record on this subject, betting against me would be unwise.

 

I have concluded that "the full script" for Episode IX served its purpose perfectly, which the masses have failed to realize.

 

"At the end", these stories are not just "movies of space wizards". From their inception, they were designed to reflect our very humanity and beyond.

 

The beginning of the Revenge of the Sith  novelization:

 

 

      This story happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. It is already over. Nothing can be done to change it.

      It is a story of love and loss, brotherhood and betrayal, courage and sacrifice and the death of dreams. It is a story of the blurred line between our best and our worst.

      It is the story of the end of an age.

      A strange thing about stories-

     Though all this happened so long ago and so far away that words cannot describe the time or the distance, it is also happening right now. Right here.

      It is happening as you read these words.

     This is how twenty-five millennia come to a close. Corruption and treachery have crushed a thousand years of peace. This is not just the end of a republic; night is falling on civilization itself.

     This is the twilight of the Jedi.

     The end starts now.

 

 

Perhaps you should take Star Wars  a bit more seriously.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no plans to reveal "how far" I've come... at least, not yet.

 

But you can start by telling me what I've said that's "complete insanity".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Arpy said:

If the heart isn't there, you're left with half-baked ideas and a studio who'll dictate the rest for you. 

 

Ah, I see.

 

But then, the sequel trilogy had spawned two films which are better than three out of the four Lucas-helmed Star Wars entries. Its all fine and well talking about "vision", but ultimately the test of any movie is how much you liked it, "vision" or no "vision".

 

I can only speak for myself, but I like The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi more than all of the Lucas-helmed prequels.

 

37 minutes ago, Holko said:

Some part of me does want to properly feed you to see how far into complete insanity you can go.

 

Do you really think Mattris can top the lunacy that is my signature? I doubt it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

After severely underestimating George Lucas, Lucasfilm, Kathleen Kennedy, JJ Abrams, John Williams, and me...

 

@Chen G., do you really think you'll have any Star Wars credibility remaining, say, after the next round of Star Wars shows are released?

 

I doubt it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Kasey Kockroach said:

Kill La Kill!

Ah for shame! That was literally the first anime I ever watched so I should’ve picked up on that

 

Speaking of anime, if anyone is dissatisfied with the current state of Star Wars and are looking for something to scratch a similar itch then I highly recommend Legend of the Galactic Heroes (the original, not the remake).

 

In many ways I’d say it succeeds where Star Wars fails, it’s a bit more grounded as in there’s no magic, but it’s ultimately very character and family-focused both surrogate and bloodlines. It also does an excellent job depicting what the actual scale of a galactic conflict would be, which has always bothered me about Star Wars

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It should be expected that Lucasfilm are aware of how their audience has received these characters and stories over the years: interpretations, opinions, perceived issues, loose ends, etc.

 

It follows then that Lucasfilm could use their awareness of the fans' perceptions to their advantage.

 

The real question is:  What could they do with this awareness?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 29/09/2021 at 1:12 PM, Mattris said:

 

Perhaps you should take Star Wars  a bit more seriously.

 

Nop, I'm fine without taking them seriously :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You say that, @DrTenma, but you "seriously" think that John Williams doesn't understand the Star Wars lore well, nor does he "care about the fandom" or "the controversial script decisions" when composing the scores for the films.

 

For you, Episodes II, III, and IX are 'very bad films'.

 

You "don't care about Mandalorian and the whole Filoni production."

 

You claimed there were "multiple versions of [Episode IX]", but failed to cite evidence.

 

You had no explanation for the "leaked recording sessions names" and slate numbers that leaked on the same day  as Colin Trevorrow's Episode IX script, along with hi-res images of its concept art.

 

You had no response when I noted that I was the only person on these forums to predict Palpatine's return to the Saga and that Rey would be directly related to him... among many other intriguing observations and theories derived from the official Star Wars canon material, as documented in that other thread.

 

Claiming Star Wars is just "movies of space wizards" is rather short-sighted and ignorant once you consider that, on numerous occasions, George Lucas has gone on record to explain his grander intentions for his mythology. (For instance, the beginning of the Revenge of the Sith  novelization indicated - in a rather on-the-nose way - that the story of Star Wars is fable-based.)

 

You admitted you have not taken Star Wars seriously.


All things considered, you have made it abundantly clear: You are not "fine without taking them seriously".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I've been ahead of the curve for a while... 'awake' long before anyone here badgered me out of a break from talking about Star Wars on these forums.

 

In the same vein, those assuming that Lucasfilm has been 'making it up as they go' will be proven to have been "mistaken... about a great many things."

 

 

@Jay, could you please move this conversation (from the bottom of page 43) to the Disenchantment thread. If for no other reason, everyone will know to find me there. Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ionic? Is that supposed to be a character in the secret Episode X that you've now suddenly forgotten about in admitting Disney has been pushing all these shows as their main focus instead? (That mind you have also been in slight flux with the departures of Benioff and Weiss for what was gonna be theirs, plus Carano allegedly having had one at some point pre being let go?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't forgotten about anything, @HunterTech. Along with Lucasfilm, I am keeping secrets. No need to spoil things for you. But as JJ said in the lead-up to IX, everything they're doing has been "hidden in plain view."

 

Yes, Disney/Lucasfilm have been pushing Star Wars shows as their main focus. "Look over here!", they say. And the masses look... and wait... and can't be bothered to think, certainly not outside the box.

 

Oh, and I suppose TIE Fighter engines are 'ionic'. :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 28/09/2021 at 11:21 AM, Manakin Skywalker said:

The man's almost 90 years old and doesn't watch these films aside from working on them. I can guarantee he doesn't know anything about the fandom and wouldn't give two shits anyway. He simply assumed the ending we got was the perfect ending the fans wanted. If you think he's returning to score more films in his 100's then you're nuts.

 

Of course if you're working on a project and want it to succeed (like actors on a press tour) you're going to talk up to it, even if you don't like the product. Obviously he's not going to trash talk the film even if he knows it's not great, because he's too respectful to do that.

 

Because you didn't respond to my previous post to you - instead choosing to continually laugh at various posts - I'll say again:

 

John Williams' age has nothing to do with his process to compose or his knowledge of Star Wars or its fanbase. What a pathetic, simplistic insinuation.

 

I said nothing about him "returning to score more films in his 100's". He's not even 90 yet... and I'm confident that he's long been done with his work on Episode X.

 

You can't "guarantee" anything regarding Williams' knowledge of Star Wars or how much he cares about its fandom or what they think of Star Wars. You don't sound like you know much more than the average John Williams fan or Star Wars fan. But feel free to (attempt to) prove me wrong.

 

11 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

I don't think Mattris is able to process sarcasm.

 

Oh, I am. But in this case, it's illogical to conclude that @DrTenma's admission that I "clearly won" the debate was sarcasm. Using his own statements, I proved that he was not "fine without taking [Star Wars] seriously".

 

Making fun or laughing at me won't change this fact... or any other facts that are about to hit you like a ton of bricks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Mattris said:

I said nothing about him "returning to score more films in his 100's". He's not even 90 yet... and I'm confident that he's long been done with his work on Episode X.

 

Just to clarify, are you saying that John Williams has already finishing scoring an Episode X? And if you are, are you saying that the film itself is secretly completed? Or are you saying that he has composed material to be used, like themes and sketches?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Guidelines.