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Star Wars Disenchantment


John

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6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I see we're dabbling in misandry now, are we?

 

Not really. Both can be beautiful, and both can be brutish. I just wish that one gender wouldn't try to assert, aggressively, its dominance, over the other.

 

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4 minutes ago, Richard said:

 

Not really. Both can be beautiful, and both can be brutish. I just wish that one gender wouldn't try to assert, aggressively, its dominance, over the other.

 

 

You mean when the wife murders her husband by bashing his head in with a rolling pin?

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...or when a husband is driven to murder his wife, after years of verbal, and emotional, abuse.

He feels weak, and conflicted. He wants to retaliate, but he feels that he can't, because, deep down, he knows that one does not hurt a woman. So...he bottles it all in. He keeps it repressed for oceans of time, until, one day, like a volcano, it erupts, with a devastating, and tragic force...

If only we would talk to each other?

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2 hours ago, Mattris said:

 

 

I firmly believe that most fans think that Star Wars is in the wrong hands and on the wrong track.

 

Most?  😄😄😄😄😄😄😄

 

 

 

It wasn't people upset over TLJ that kept Solo's numbers down. 

 

Link:  Experts say bad marketing is why Solo is under-performing

 

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2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

than you're not really a feminist, you've just been misinformed about western values.

 

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "western values" in this context, and honestly I'm sad that I couldn't let this go as I normally would just ignore it, but values are changing constantly.  Things that a hundred years ago most westerners would have considered fine would now be considered abhorrent.  It is activists on the bleeding edge that push societal values forward (or backwards, as sadly sometimes happens).  Once upon a time, abolitionists were considered political extremists.

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But these nuts who scream fire and fury over the use of pronouns are really weird, and it gets weirder when officials appease them by enforcing it in schools and workplaces etc, with penalties and punishment for those who accidentally refer to a "xi" as a "ze".

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10 hours ago, Mattris said:

I was one of the original members of JWfan. I recently changed my screen name but kept the same avatar. My old name was similar. Anyone care to guess what it was?

 

A Mattris.... A demon of the ancient JWFan.

 

200.gif

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2 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

conservative equivalent of ghost stories around the camp fire

 

*flashlight under chin*

 

have you ever heard the story about the liberal college professor? spoooooooooky

 

I dunno, apparently these whackjobs are so bad, they've even slammed liberal uni professors for not complying with them or accommodating their "safe space" or "trigger warning" demands.

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21 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "western values" in this contex

 

I mean equality of opportunity, which women in western societies (and in the society depicted in Star Wars) do have. 

 

Equality-of-outcome, however, has never been an ideal of the western world. There's no interest for the workplace or indeed the cast of a film to be comprised of 50/50 men and women.

 

This is especially true of these kinds of films which are essentially action films: if they were heavily populated by female characters (as opposed to just a couple, like The Last Jedi), it would feel ridicolous.

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Well, it seems women in the entertainment industry are saying they do not have equality of opportunity.  You're such a Hollywood insider, I guess you're saying they're wrong?

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I don’t like TLJ, but I don’t really see the case against Kathleen Kennedy. TLJ is the only one where we were told the director had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted. Granted, again I’m very unhappy with how it came out, but we’ve basically been told that Johnson is off to do his own trilogy and if you don’t like TLJ you can ignore that… everything else will be less experimental.

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32 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Well, it seems women in the entertainment industry are saying they do not have equality of opportunity.  You're such a Hollywood insider, I guess you're saying they're wrong?

 

I'm not looking at the industry: I'm looking at the diegesis of the films that we are watching. When people complain about feminist agenda effecting storytelling, that's what they are talking about.

 

I just don't think there's ground for this argument at the current state of things: yes, we're getting more female protagonists, but we're not getting equality-of-outcome across whole casts of action films (Ghostbusters notwithstanding), so that's fine.

 

But going forward, concerns about feminist agenda tainting storytelling may prove to be completely founded, as  far as action films are concerned.

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1 minute ago, kaseykockroach said:

Kitties make everything better!

 

Except Star Wars. Star Wars is boring even if it included kitties.

Carrie Fisher's dog was in TLJ.

https://www.cnet.com/news/star-wars-the-last-jedi-carrie-fisher-dog-space-gary/

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Good lord, this thread only had a few posts in it last I saw, today I opened it to find 10 pages!  

I moved all the posts about this topic out of the SOLO thread and into here, and now it's up to 17 pages!

 

Is it worth my time to read the last 10 pages of this thread or will this be the first thread since I became mod I don't read in its entirety?

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

 

I mean equality of opportunity, which women in western societies (and in the society depicted in Star Wars) do have. 

 

 

I see where you're going with this @Chen G. but I'm not sure I agree. We have the illusion of equal opportunity in our society, but the conscious and unconscious biases and archaic structures present at the entry point of most of the Western world's industries and - crucially - in education, are only just beginning to be understood and undone. I suppose that's where it intersects with your idea of outcome, however I think it's still more on the opportunity side of things. 

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6 minutes ago, Jay said:

Good lord, this thread only had a few posts in it last I saw, today I opened it to find 10 pages!  

I moved all the posts about this topic out of the SOLO thread and into here, and now it's up to 17 pages!

 

Is it worth my time to read the last 10 pages of this thread or will this be the first thread since I became mod I don't read in its entirety?

 

The only reason for you to do so is to fulfill my daydream of you saying, "Mr. Parker, after careful consideration, I have decided not to endorse your thread", then locking it. My only concern is that this stuff will have a Lost World effect and will spread to the other threads in wild freedom.

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19 minutes ago, Jay said:

Good lord, this thread only had a few posts in it last I saw, today I opened it to find 10 pages!  

I moved all the posts about this topic out of the SOLO thread and into here, and now it's up to 17 pages!

 

Is it worth my time to read the last 10 pages of this thread or will this be the first thread since I became mod I don't read in its entirety?

 

You should actually shut this thread down, or at a minimum put on your mod hat and tell people to take their political arguments to Other Topics.

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15 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 

You should actually shut this thread down, or at a minimum put on your mod hat and tell people to take their political arguments to Other Topics.

 

I'd vote :lock2:

 

Except it would only spread to the remaining Star Wars threads.  I'm certainly going to stop checking it (I regret being pulled into it the few times I was), so I'd probably prefer it contained here.

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28 minutes ago, Jay said:

Is it worth my time to read the last 10 pages of this thread or will this be the first thread since I became mod I don't read in its entirety?

No, unless you want to read some ridiculous babbling between this Mattris fellow and the rest of the members, in a nutshell.

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Yea the point of a thread like this is to contain discussion that many don't want to read all in one place.

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1 hour ago, Docteur Qui said:

I see where you're going with this @Chen G. but I'm not sure I agree. We have the illusion of equal opportunity in our society, but the conscious and unconscious biases and archaic structures present at the entry point of most of the Western world's industries and - crucially - in education, are only just beginning to be understood and undone.

 

Sure, but the idea of gender roles, for instance, isn’t the result of pure social construct - it’s very much grounded in our genetics. Scientifically, women are, on average, more attracted by nature to certain professions (which is why, on the topic, we rightfully expect to find them occupying these roles in movies) and less attracted to others, which is why we expect to see less of them occupying in movies.

 

I’m not making a political claim, I’m talking about storytelling in movies. In short: If a filmmaker is trying too hard to reverse gender roles, especially across the entire cast, it will likely feel contrived and quite possibly jerk a lot of people out of the movie, and not out of chauvinism.

 

That’s yet to happen in Disney’s Star Wars, though, so I don’t quite understand the claim that feminism is ruining Star Wars in present tense; but it is certainly something to be mindful of in the future, is all I’m saying.

 

That is all.

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54 minutes ago, Jay said:

Is it worth my time to read the last 10 pages of this thread or will this be the first thread since I became mod I don't read in its entirety?

 

Read pages 11 and 12, shut the place down, and place it in the deepest depths of other topics.  Or just put it in other topics.

(I'm not sure why I posted in this thread in the first place. ) 

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2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Sure, but the idea of gender roles isn’t the result of pure social construct - it’s very much grounded in our genetics. Scientifically, women are, on average, more attracted by nature to certain professions (which is why, on the topic, we rightfully expect to find them occupying these roles in movies) and less attracted to others, which is why we expect to see less of them occupying in movies.

 

I’m not making a political claim, I’m talking about storytelling in movies. In short: If a filmmaker is trying too hard to reverse gender roles, especially across the entire cast, it will likely feel contrived and quite possibly jerk a lot of people out of the movie.

 

Again, I can see where you're coming from, but where we diverge is exactly on where the science and societal constructs fall. To take your argument about the types of roles that women are attracted to doesn't take into account the fact that until very recently many roles were not available to women at all. We probably both agree that women can and do make exceptional teachers and educators, however up until the mid-19th century formal education was almost entirely run and executed by males. Similarly, there have been some exceptional (and not so exceptional) female politicians and world leaders in the past half-century, but before the first and second World Wars, women were again not present in these fields. The wars necessitated that women step away from homemaking and child rearing and take up roles in engineering, mechanics, civil services, factory work, government postings etc. (all predominantly "male" industries) because all the men were off serving their countries, and in the process they transformed those industries into what they are today. It's no coincidence that the waves of feminism in the twentieth century rose and fell around the times of these conflicts. That it took the tragedy of war for women to take up these roles says as much about society as it does about biology; for women to be able to fill these roles as successfully as they did there had to have been an evolutionary mechanism that allowed for it. Societal pressures for women to remain in largely nurturing fields and men in physical and intellectual fields only reinforces one part of their nature while weakening others, but we as humans are capable of so much more than that. 

 

With this in mind, I don't think it's such a stretch to see why gender roles are presented the way they are in Star Wars. Leia, Rey and Holdo are all women who, out of necessity, are thrust into roles of power and responsibility (unwillingly in the case of Rey in TFA), to aid in the war effort. Holdo bears the worst of it, someone not entirely equipped to be a leader who nonetheless is forced to make extraordinarily difficult choices and ultimately sacrifices herself for the Resistance. Whether or not that comes across clearly is very much up for debate, but for me it's well articulated TLJ.

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Arpy said:

 

The backlash to The Last Jedi and Solo online and elsewhere has been, quite frankly, embarrassing.    I say:  Embarrassing for Lucasfilm - Kathleen Kennedy, in particular. She produced a Star Wars film that broke the fandom... and the following movie will loose money.

 

It's the same type of shit just like when someone makes a Trump joke and they expect a round of applause for pointing out what everyone already knew, a thick smog of pretension fills the air, 'everyone who disagrees is just a loony'. Here with Solo and Star Wars, it's popular to hate everything.

 

After the disgrace that was TLJ, more and more people are sharing information/opinions and becoming aware of the situation and voting with their dollar. Money - or lack thereof - speaks volumes.

  Quote

1.  It's not Episode 9.

That didn't stop people from seeing Rogue One.

 

After The Force Awakens was received positively, people had faith that Rogue One would also be a worthy installment. Generally, it was... and it had Darth Vader!

  Quote

2.  Fans' disenchantment after The Last Jedi

No true scotsman fallacy. Fans were upset, yes, but a large portion still found the film entertaining, bought tickets and the home media.

 

A large portion of fans were immediately upset with TLJ, didn't see it a second time, didn't buy it on home media, and didn't buy any merchandise. Word has spread of the film's short-comings, resulting in many being turned-off of any new Star Wars films.

  Quote

3.  Unconvincing writing / acting from of the title character

I've personally not encountered the criticism for Han's portrayal in Solo, I think that's one thing people have been positive about because it isn't a straight Harrison Ford impersonation.

 

While many would like to have seen a Harrison Ford impersonation, I don't think many expected it. The actor performance aside, the criticism I've seen is that the writing for Han is un-true to his previously established character. In the film, he's presented as boyish, submissive, unsure, and always asking others what to do. I understand the film intended to show a younger, less mature Han, but the character did not feel like a younger version of the Han we know.

  Quote

4.  Mediocre reviews / ratings / word of mouth among fans that the film wasn't that good

I never listen to the fans or the audience reviews, simply because I never expect another fan's opinions to be near my own.   Many listen to others' advice/suggestions to avoid regretful spending and time-wasting. This movie is mediocre at best - not good enough for a company that has the deepest pockets and can hire any actors or writers.

  Quote

5.  Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson are still employed at Lucasfilm... and plan to make more movies

They've both enjoyed careers in producing films, in Kennedy's case she has had a hand in some of the most beloved film franchises in history. They aren't going to roll over because a bunch of crybabies didn't like their movie.   

 

Then they will end up being fired when their films continue to under-perform financially because a "bunch" of people will skip them entirely.

 

Do you really think KK had a hand in actually making those beloved films? She was in charge of the finances. How ironic.

  Quote

6.  Many statements/insults from Lucasfilm that failed to address the fans' concerns/complaints regarding the Saga films

What concerns? That they should just give up? 'Hey lucasfilm, I hated TFA, TLJ, Solo and R1, so you guys better make a good film next time'. Please.

 

The high-ups at Lucasfilm must be aware of the fans' concerns/complaints but do not respond positively and seem to not care. Many, including Johnson, Abrams, Hidalgo, and Wendig choose to go on the offensive by calling fans stupid, racist and sexist. Lucasfilm is a business and ultimately must make a healthy profit. Satisfying the majority of the fans is the most obvious way to do this. If not, a backlash will follow and they will make less than expected or even loose money. This is happening as we speak. The Disney CEO will have to make a decision soon: Fire Kathleen Kennedy and Co... or continue to let business slide. From a business standpoint, the choice should be easy.

  Quote

7.  Mark Hamill admitted that he "fundamentally disagreed with nearly everything that was written" for Luke in TLJ

Not sure if it has been addressed here yet, but Hamill made statements before and after that little tidbit saying that he disagreed with Johnson on the direction of Luke's character, but ultimately came to the conclusion that it was up to the director to shape Luke's character and not his role as an actor. This whole quote is generally warped far from the truth of the matter.

 

Hamill's earlier statements were made to garner interest and appear strongly opinionated with the direction Johnson took with his character. He did not come to a "conclusion" - but simply changed what he was saying publicly - at Lucasfilm's request, no doubt. Obviously, writer/director is in charge of him as an actor. Nothing was "warped from the truth".

  Quote

8.  Not many people wanted a Han Solo movie so soon after his sad/shocking death in The Force Awakens

I agree with the first part, the part about it being 'too soon' I think is ridiculous. Nothing's too soon.

 

You think a Han Solo movie released 5 years from now wouldn't have been more successful? Of course it would have.

  Quote

 

9.  SJW droid (droid rights!)

10. Lando could be pansexual

 

I've never cottoned on to the 'SJW mentality is ruining the films' narrative simply because it isn't surprising that a film today carries the social commentary and messages of the time. Sometimes it can be a bit on the nose, but not to the extent that it 'ruined Star Wars', and if you have to even say a thing like that then you really need to go home and rethink your life. These are just films, yet a lot of people seem to take them and worship them in such an unhealthy way.

 

I don't think most people would say 'SJW mentality is ruining the films'. But I do think most people don't want any "social commentary and messages of the time" in Star Wars films certainly not "a bit on the nose". Clearly, Kathleen Kennedy and Co. are using Star Wars as a platform to espouse their SJW/feminist agenda. And they are not even trying to do it in a subtle, well-written way. People don't want to be preached to - even those that would otherwise be sympathetic to their cause. The leadership at Lucasfilm "really need to go home and rethink" their lives, as they are embarrassing themselves. I expect they will find plenty of time to reflect when they find themselves out of a job.

 

Star Wars films - especially those featuring Luke, Han, and Leia - are not "just films". People have a deeper connection to the original characters... and want to connect with the new ones. But many are noticing that these movies are lacking in the fundamental elements of story-telling: complex, fleshed-out characters and intriguing plot-lines.

 

What's "unhealthy" is the way the business of Lucasfilm is currently being run.

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4 hours ago, Sharky said:

 

A Mattris.... A demon of the ancient JWFan.

 

200.gif

 

Eh, he seemed pretty normal back in the day.

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49 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Absolutely. 

 

With main characters the issue is also alleviated by virtue of the fact that we expect such characters to be exceptional.

 

But if we were to see, in episode IX, say, as many women in the lines of The First Order as we see men, that would most likely feel contrived because military organizations are predominantly male. Again, more due to biological inclinations than due to social constructs.

 

Luckily, we’re not there yet. When we get there (which we hopefully never will) then the likes of @Mattris will have due cause to complain about a feminist agenda tainting the storytelling. As of right now, I find the  use of female characters judicious, well-realized and entirely appropriate.

 

Love this discussion, but I’ll have to come back to it later. I’d like to touch on how other societal constructs (religious, political, economic) all inform and are informed by gender roles and how they could very well explain such a scenario, but I don’t have the time right now. I would however highly recommend a book called “Sapiens” by Yuval Noah Harari that very concisely touches on all of these points through the lens of human evolution. Available at all good airport bookshops.

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59 minutes ago, Steve McQueen said:

Eh, he seemed pretty normal back in the day.

 

That's what they said about Durin's Bane.

 

"He was such adorable little Maia. I blame that asshole Melkor."

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