Best Williams Orchestrator

[Guest]

I know with Williams, the orchestrators aren't really given time to shine--they just follow orders--but I do seem to sense a difference between the styles of Herb Spencer and the Pope-Neufeld duo. So my question is...who do you prefer? (Feel free to list a few others, and I'll try to add them to the poll. I know there's a few others because Arthur Morton worked on Superman with Williams, but that's one of the few non-Goldsmith films Morton worked on, I believe.)

[Magnus 0]

I prefer the Herb Spencer orchestrations. They're for some reason a bit more classic then the recent ones are.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why is Alexander Courage not included in this list?

Stefancos- who would have voted for Sandy

[Ricard 2,245]

Why is Alexander Courage not included in this list?

Stefancos- who would have voted for Sandy

Why?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Cause, he wrote the Star Trek theme, that's why.

Besides, he has orchestrated for Williams.

Stefancos-

[Ricard 2,245]

Cause, he wrote the Star Trek theme, that's why.

Besides, he has orchestrated for Williams.

Stefancos-  

I knew that your reason had nothing to do with his orchestrations for Williams :roll:

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Off course it hasn't, i don't even know how to distinguish "orchestrations" from the rest of the music.

Stefancos- who listens to MUSIC, not orchestrations.

[Guest]

I mainly didn't include Courage or Morton because they've done less than 5 films with Williams each. With Spencer, Pope, or Neufeld, you can't exactly say the same. I mean, Spencer pretty much orchestrated everything Williams did from late-70s to 1990, whereas Pope and Neufeld have been orchestrating ever since, which is a good 13 years. Maybe you could tell what kind of a job Alexander Courage can do with the four films he's done with Williams, but not as much as you can with the two other groups.

I would have to say I prefer Spencer over Pope-Neufeld. I was listening to "Return to Tatooine" today and it sounded too modern. I assume, according to the FSM interview, that Conrad Pope mainly orchestrates percussion parts. If that's the case, then I don't like what he did with "RTT" during the Force theme right before the DotF quote. That little cymbal crash under the strings RUINS the Force theme quote. It would be VERY interesting to hear that same part of the track without the cymbals, then compare it to the similar Spencer-orchestrated quotes from the classic trilogy (i.e. "Binary Sunset" and "Lando's Palace"). I think with the exception of tempo and speed, "Return" and the classic quotes would be identical. That's what I like about what Spencer did. He left the percussion out of it. Pope is a fine percussion orchestrator--don't get me wrong. However, I think at times, he ventures off from a more classical approach than is necessary or appropriate. He creates something that's too Zimmer-esque for Williams. Obviously JW likes what Conrad does or else he'd quit hiring him.

[Marian Schedenig 8,192]

Best Williams orchestrator?

Williams.

Marian -

[Ricard 2,245]

I mainly didn't include Courage or Morton because they've done less than 5 films with Williams each.  With Spencer, Pope, or Neufeld, you can't exactly say the same.  I mean, Spencer pretty much orchestrated everything Williams did from late-70s to 1990, whereas Pope and Neufeld have been orchestrating ever since, which is a good 13 years.  Maybe you could tell what kind of a job Alexander Courage can do with the four films he's done with Williams, but not as much as you can with the two other groups.  

I would have to say I prefer Spencer over Pope-Neufeld.  I was listening to "Return to Tatooine" today and it sounded too modern.  I assume, according to the FSM interview, that Conrad Pope mainly orchestrates percussion parts.  If that's the case, then I don't like what he did with "RTT" during the Force theme right before the DotF quote.  That little cymbal crash under the strings RUINS the Force theme quote.  It would be VERY interesting to hear that same part of the track without the cymbals, then compare it to the similar Spencer-orchestrated quotes from the classic trilogy (i.e. "Binary Sunset" and "Lando's Palace").  I think with the exception of tempo and speed, "Return" and the classic quotes would be identical.  That's what I like about what Spencer did.  He left the percussion out of it.  Pope is a fine percussion orchestrator--don't get me wrong.  However, I think at times, he ventures off from a more classical approach than is necessary or appropriate.  He creates something that's too Zimmer-esque for Williams.  Obviously JW likes what Conrad does or else he'd quit hiring him.

I couldn't agree more. Great post.

[Guest]

I think a major reason that the late 70s-early 80's Williams sounds different is because it was recorded more classically. Now, they have so much more technology that makes the orchestra sound so different. Also, Williams style has changed. It's not the orchestrators who choose the instruments. Williams uses more synthesizers, too now. We have to assume he is able to choose between the same 5 or 10 synth patches he always uses regardless of the orchestrator. Like how in the Harry Potter score, synth bells is written above the celeste part indicating that the celeste player would turn his body to the synth keyboard and play the synth bell sound he likes to use now and then. I know that sometimes Williams will write "large drum" for the percussionist to choose a large drum himself. Knowing of course if he meant bass drum or large tom, he would have written that, so in a limited way, he does leave some things to chance, but not anything like whether an oboe will be playing with the flute. Percussionists all have different Drums, so to get to specific beyond a certain point and say "30 inch sheep skin drum" could send the percussionist into a scavenge. Composer Tan Dun is even less specific about his percussion at times.

If you read the liner notes of the RSNO Superman, it is one clear indication of Williams' role as the actual orchestrator of all his music. The same has been said by Herb Spencer, Conrad Pope, and Pat Hollenbeck. The purpose of the orchestrator is to write the musicians' parts all on seperate staves so that the copyists will not have to copy from Williams' 9 to 16 stave manuscript. It is a rare occasion that the orchestrator suggests anything about instrumentation to Williams, and an even rarer one that he takes that advice.

The difference in the sound Williams over the years is the same reason that his scores of the 60's sound different than the early seventies, sound different than the late 70's. Composers go through different periods. Stravinsky is a fine example.As is Richard Strauss.

[RomanticStrings 10]

I would have voted for Alexander Courage because of Jurassic Park. It's my favorite orchestration, as well as music in general.

~Conor

[Guest]

i don't even know how to distinguish "orchestrations" from the rest of the music.  

Well the actual recorded music itself is a result of the orchestrations.

It's not 10 seconds of music, 25 seconds of orchestration, back to the music again.

It's like not being able to distinguish "food" from the rest of the meal.

[Guest]

sorry, I meant "food preparation" rather than just "food".

[Ricard 2,245]

i don't even know how to distinguish "orchestrations" from the rest of the music.  

Well the actual recorded music itself is a result of the orchestrations.

It's not 10 seconds of music, 25 seconds of orchestration, back to the music again.

That was good! LOL

[ocelot 508]

Well, I would say Williams, however since he isn't up there I put Herbert Spencer, because in the early days he taught Williams a lot of what he uses nowadays. Pope and Neufeld don't add much of anything but pretty much follow his orders.

[King Mark 3,631]

I say Herbert Spencer.It showed when he stopped doing them.I didn't like the orchestrations of some cues in JP,like "Dennis Steals the Embryo"or "High Wire Stunts".

K.M.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

Also, Williams style has changed. It's not the orchestrators who choose the instruments. Williams uses more synthesizers, too now.....

.....The difference in the sound Williams over the years is the same reason that his scores of the 60's sound different than the early seventies, sound different than the late 70's. Composers go through different periods. Stravinsky is a fine example.As is Richard Strauss.

It is possible, but not solely the substance of the "problem". Because, why does some material Williams writes sound not much differently from Danny Elfman or James Newton Howard nowadays, especially during the "underscore" parts?

I, on the contrary, assume it has a lot to do with orchestration. Mr. Spencer was a magician of somewhat "warm, soulful and passionate" string sound, making even the least interesting parts of a score material so much ear-friendly. Nowadays, even the size of the London Symphony Orchestra in full number "for some reason" gets somewhat retrenched, and don't try to make me believe it's due to written material. As much as I like "Duel of the Fates", I can't help thinking it still sounds choked, although it has all the necessary elements to blow you off your seat, but it doesn't. Try playing Seven Years in Tibet and Born on the Fourth of July main themes on piano, and I dare say you will find them both comparably beautiful. And then listen to their soundtrack versions. A world of difference in emotional reverberation.

But why is that? It is the same as with conductors. I collect different interpretations of my most favorite recordings, and the good example could be Dvorak's "Slavonic Dances". I have six versions, all of them performed by the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, but in each case with different conductor. While Mr. ?ejna's rendition really follows the suit and makes all of the dances really danceable (even the adagio ones), there's also the feeling that it was handled by chamber orchestra rather than large philharmonic. Nevertheless, my favorite conductor's, Mr. Neumann's, rendition of these dances puts stress on the string and woodwind sections and the result is that those few slow dances suddenly have a longing, almost touching aura about them, while the fast-paced pieces become melic and less dance-inducing, although the tempo remains almost the same. In the end, it is up to you which suits you best. I usually go with these "soulful" renditions, and this is what I think recent orchestrators of Mr. Williams don't deliver, but I don't say it's a bad thing. It only doesn't stir me as much as Mr. Spencer's orchestrations did.

Roman.-)

[Guest]

why does some material Williams writes sound not much differently from Danny Elfman or James Newton Howard nowadays, especially during the "underscore" parts?  

Maybe because they're getting better.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

James Newton Howard? Maybe. But Danny Elfman? Gone are the days of Somersby, Black Beauty or Edward Scissorhands... Maybe the two Williams' orchestrators are Elfman's huge fans.

[Guest]

Hey Roman!

Nice to see you around!

I made a better 'Best of John Williams' list lately, if you like i would like to hear your opinion on it...

MSM

[Guest]

I am glad to see no-one talking about James Horner's orchestration work for Williams... :-)

MSM

[Guest]

I would have voted for Alexander Courage because of Jurassic Park.  It's my favorite orchestration, as well as music in general.  

~Conor

This is exactly my opinion as well. Jurassic Park and Hook are among the best Williams orchestrations I think, both from Courage. Haven't JFK and Home Alone also been done by Courage? My second vote would be Spencer, because of Superman and his Indy orchestration.

MSM

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Because, why does some material Williams writes sound not much differently from Danny Elfman or James Newton Howard nowadays, especially during the "underscore" parts?

I miss the days when every cue in a John Williams score was closed on itself. It had a beginning and an ending. It was like an independent piece. Take Hyperspace from ESB, or The Hunt from The Lost World, or even TIE Fighter Attack from Star Wars. Those were like little suites written for the movie. A single cue could satisfy your ears because you had a feeling of completion when it ended.

Williams' new style, which I admire very much, only works as a whole. A single cue means nothing. In some parts it's just stretched notes to just fill a scene. An untrained ear can just sit and listen to a 70's 80's and early 90's Williams, not doing anything else and never get bored, or loose attention. His new style doesn't grab my attention. It becomes background music from a movie that plays in the background in my CD player.

I guess the change was an intentional need of fresh air for Williams.

[Guest]

The final recorded sound also has alot to do with it for me.

It's far too controlled and processed as opposed to older works.

Those really dry flutes in ANH are wonderful.

[Guest]

Hey Ross, what about "Anderton's Great Escape" or "Pre-Crime to the Rescue"? Or "Return to Tatooine"? That had the Force theme and DotF and a mess of other themes and I don't think it was even touched by Burtt & Co.

[Lurker 5]

I miss the days when every cue in a John Williams score was closed on itself.

That's probably why I think "On the Conveyor Belt" is the best cue on the AOTC CD.

Neil

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Hey Ross, what about "Anderton's Great Escape" or "Pre-Crime to the Rescue"?  Or "Return to Tatooine"?

Any of those tracks could have been edited down to end halfway to the track and none of us would have noticed there was something missing. Whereas if TIE Fighter Attack had been edited to end halfway through the cue, you'll say: "hey, where's the rest of it?"

[Lurker 5]

Probably not coincidentally, I think "Anderton's Great Escape" is actually 2 cues edited together.

Neil

[Guest]

Quote:

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The purpose of the orchestrator is to write the musicians' parts all on seperate staves so that the copyists will not have to copy from Williams' 9 to 16 stave manuscript. It is a rare occasion that the orchestrator suggests anything about instrumentation to Williams, and an even rarer one that he takes that advice.

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The guest is absolutely right. This poll is IMO pointless. Williams is solely responsible for sounding like Williams, even though it changed over years. You're overrating the effect of an orchestrator. He gets no credit in the CD booklett and you can hardly find him in the movies' end credits list. That should tell you something. Please don't insult Johnny any further.

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Alex Cremers

[Morn 8]

I agree, I don't see the point in voting for a copyist.

[Jeshopk 8]

Over at Film Score Rundowns

http://www.comcen.com.au/~agfam/rundowns/

There is a complete description of the "sketch" score for Superman. This is the score before Spencer "orchestrated" it. You can see that all the instrumentation choices are present in the Williams score, including particular string voicings.

[Gilderoy 2]

Hi all, remember that the final approvation is always by the composer.

Spencer, Pope, Neufeld are all great artists but the final supervision of the scores is by Williams.