Braveheart vs. Titanic - which score do you like the most?

[Chen G. 3,943]

5 hours ago, Horner's Dynamic Range said:

The Fox logo wasn't in front of the movie until the reissue. Even in theaters, it was just the silent Paramount logo.

 

Both Braveheart and Titanic had two distributors: Fox for North America, Paramount for the International market.

 

With Braveheart its especially noteworthy because Horner wrote a prelude that only appears over the Paramount logos.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Both Braveheart and Titanic had two distributors: Fox for North America, Paramount for the International market.

 

But neither Titanic or Braveheart ever had the Paramount logo in Australia. It was always Fox here.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Here as well.

[Chen G. 3,943]

I need to revisit Titanic, but Braveheart uses the Paramount logos in Israel.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Hey @Brundlefly, where'd you learn to shoot like that?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

5 hours ago, Chen G. said:

With Braveheart its especially noteworthy because Horner wrote a prelude that only appears over the Paramount logos.

 

I never knew that.

 

Dammit.

[Jurassic Shark 12,024]

5 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Both Braveheart and Titanic had two distributors: Fox for North America, Paramount for the International market.

 

With Braveheart its especially noteworthy because Horner wrote a prelude that only appears over the Paramount logos.

 

Like this?

 

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

Yep. That's the one.

 

Sets the mood of the score and the film quite well, much better than the Fox Fanfare.

 

Gibson originally wanted no opening credits, though. He wanted the movie to just open. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Is Braveheart basically a "Scottish" version of The Patriot?

[Brundlefly 2,385]

It's first of all a bad version of The Patriot.

[Nick1Ø66 4,688]

2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Yep. That's the one.

 

Sets the mood of the score and the film quite well, much better than the Fox Fanfare.

 

Gibson originally wanted no opening credits, though. He wanted the movie to just open. 

 

Have you watched Albu gu Brath!? 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

It's first of all a bad version of The Patriot.

 

Take that back!

[Jurassic Shark 12,024]

1 hour ago, Brundlefly said:

It's first of all a bad version of The Patriot.

 

Braveheart came first, so it can't be a version of The Patriot.

[Nick1Ø66 4,688]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

Braveheart came first, so it can't be a version of The Patriot.

 

Historically and cinematically!

 

The Patriot should have been...better.

[Dixon Hill 4,232]

Braveheart = Titanic > Star Wars

[Brundlefly 2,385]

[Chen G. 3,943]

2 hours ago, Nick1066 said:

Have you watched Albu gu Brath!? 

 

Repeadetly.

 

23 minutes ago, TGP said:

Braveheart > Titanic > Star Wars

 

You got it almost right. Fixed it for y'a. No charge.

 

2 hours ago, Horner's Dynamic Range said:

Is Braveheart basically a "Scottish" version of The Patriot?

 

Rather, The Patriot is an American, modern version of Braveheart. The main difference being that the execution of the narrative Braveheart is significantly stronger; Namely, the use of humor offsets a lot of the cheesy elements of old-school epics, in a way that it doesn't in The Patriot.

[Jurassic Shark 12,024]

27 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:

 The Patriot should have been...better.

 

Yes it should!

 

But it would require a different director.

[NL197 368]

On 7/29/2018 at 1:36 AM, Chen G. said:

 

Both Braveheart and Titanic had two distributors: Fox for North America, Paramount for the International market.

 

With Braveheart its especially noteworthy because Horner wrote a prelude that only appears over the Paramount logos.

 

You have that reversed. 

 

Fox was international for both films, Paramount was North America for both films. That's why Horner's score appears as it should over the Paramount logo. 

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

It did mean they played the 20th Century Fox Fanfare at the start of Titanic Live here.

 

People loudly applauded hearing that live. A bit of a jarring transition, going from applause to the somber opening of Titanic's score.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I prefer the Paramount logo.

[Nick1Ø66 4,688]

Hmmmm.  But doesn't the same music that plays behind the Paramount logo simply play behind the ICON, etc. logo at the start of the FOX version?  Am I missing something?

 

This sounds like a  job for @Chen G.

[Chen G. 3,943]

Like I said, in Israel its preceded by the Paramount logo. I've seen it once with the Fox logo and I don't recall the prelude being there.

[TitanicFan2018 30]

I like both scores for Braveheart and Titanic, as they are James Horner's masterpieces.  Strictly speaking, you can't compare the two scores as they are vastly different from one another.  Braveheart's score is very epic, lushly performed, and the battle cues are very heavy (extensive use of percussion).  Much of it is also in the style of Scottish music from the medieval period, in which the film takes place.  And Uilleann bagpipes are used extensively, even in battle cues.  On the other hand, Titanic's score is smaller-scale.  And the only thing in common it has with Braveheart is that it also uses bagpipes, except they're used sparingly in Titanic.  Certain cues that use the love leitmotif, like "Rose", have a pop-style sound (chord progressions, syncopations); and "My Heart Will Go On" plays over the film's closing credits.  Braveheart doesn't have any pop songs or pop-style cues in its score.

[Chen G. 3,943]

5 hours ago, TitanicFan2018 said:

Uilleann bagpipes are used extensively

 

Braveheart actually has quite an impressive palette: large orchestra, boy choir, solo tenor, synth, taikos, anvils, bodhran, dungchengs, alphorns, pibgorn, whistles, quena, shakuhachi, uileann pipes, highland bagpipes, etc...

 

Outside of the celtic flavor, Braveheart does share a little similarity with Titanic: For Braveheart Horner replaced (thank god!) his trademark three-note danger figure with a two-note low brass figure (guess he thought he ought to up his game or something) and that figure also features prominently in the second half of Titanic. You know the one - it kinda sounds like the Batman motif from Nolan's Batman features.

 

 

[NL197 368]

The opening to the LLL cue "Trapped on 'D' Deck" on the Titanic 20th anniversary album has the same two notes Zimmer used as his Batman motif. It's repeated in the butchered score for the film, notably when you see the first set of firework / flares go up in the sky and it then focuses on Jack looking out the sinking porthole, and again when Cal stuffs Murdoch's pocket with cash. 

[TitanicFan2018 30]

4 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Braveheart actually has quite an impressive palette: orchestra, boy choir, solo tenor, pibgorn, synth, taikos, anvils, bodhran, dungchengs, alphorns, whistles, quena, shakuhachi, uileann pipes, highland bagpipes, etc...

 

Indeed, Braveheart has a larger orchestration than Titanic does, but I don't recall hearing anvils except in one cue, "Wallace Courts Murron".  And yes, there are highland bagpipes heard, but it's not part of the score.  It was heard before a battle scene if I remember correctly.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Braveheart actually has quite an impressive palette: orchestra, boy choir, solo tenor, synth, taikos, anvils, bodhran, dungchengs, alphorns, pibgorn, whistles, quena, shakuhachi, uileann pipes, highland bagpipes, etc...

 

It plays like a beautiful painting.

 

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

1 hour ago, TitanicFan2018 said:

there are highland bagpipes

 

Hey, diegetic music counts, too!

 

Plus, the pipes in the buildup to the battle of Stirling don't sound like ulieann pipes, to me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So some of the more dissonant sounds might be actual bagpipes 

[Chen G. 3,943]

Uileann pipes are actual bagpipes - just of a different variety. But the pipes on the track "The Battle of Stirling" sound much too drone-y for uileann pipes.

 

The "disonant sounds" are synth and alphorns to simulate horn-calls. An odd choice, but it works well to complement the harsh reality and contemporary, kinetic filmmaking style that the movie takes up whenever there's an action sequence. They're also used to build-up towards a shakuachi riff or taiko stroke as a scene transition occurs. I love that effect: most of these transitions are simple cuts, but the way they coincide with a stinger gives them a real agression.

[Bilbo 3,709]

I’ll have a listen to the track later on and see if I can identify the pipes. Uileann pipes can be quite drone-y too but they’re generally not played that way. 

[TitanicFan2018 30]

3 hours ago, Bilbo said:

I’ll have a listen to the track later on and see if I can identify the pipes. Uileann pipes can be quite drone-y too but they’re generally not played that way. 

 

The track with the highland bagpipes is actually on the album "More Music From Braveheart" and is titled "Point of War/Johnny Cope/Up in the Morning Early", and is not on the LLL album.  But the LLL set has track called "Scottish Wedding Dance" on disc 2, and that has Scottish smallpipes.

[Jurassic Shark 12,024]

So the LLL Braveheart is incomplete? Straight to the wastebin!

[Bilbo 3,709]

6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Uileann pipes are actual bagpipes - just of a different variety. But the pipes on the track "The Battle of Stirling" sound much too drone-y for uileann pipes.

 

The "disonant sounds" are synth and alphorns to simulate horn-calls. An odd choice, but it works well to complement the harsh reality and contemporary, kinetic filmmaking style that the movie takes up whenever there's an action sequence. They're also used to build-up towards a shakuachi riff or taiko stroke as a scene transition occurs. I love that effect: most of these transitions are simple cuts, but the way they coincide with a stinger gives them a real agression.

 

Its a difficult one to place. There’s more than one playing. It doesn’t sound loud enough to be Warpipes but not sweet enough for Uileann. 

 

I guess it *could* be a couple of Uileann pipes along with a drone. 

[NL197 368]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

So the LLL Braveheart is incomplete? Straight to the wastebin!

 

It is incomplete, but not because of source music. 

 

It's missing the film version of "Betrayal and Desolation", where the finale of the cue with the choir leads into a synth string passage, but on album has a more complete resolution to it as the choir continues on. 
Very small piece of the score missing, but nonetheless, the score is incomplete without it. 

[TitanicFan2018 30]

50 minutes ago, NL197 said:

 

It is incomplete, but not because of source music. 

 

It's missing the film version of "Betrayal and Desolation", where the finale of the cue with the choir leads into a synth string passage, but on album has a more complete resolution to it as the choir continues on. 
Very small piece of the score missing, but nonetheless, the score is incomplete without it. 

 

I wonder if it's on the OST or the follow-up album "more music from Braveheart" album if it's not on the LLL album.  I too just started creating a custom complete score for Braveheart.

[davefg 29]

On 7/25/2018 at 5:48 PM, Thor said:

Difficult, since they’re both masterpieces, but I guess I’d go for Braveheart.

Ditto. I’d also go with Braveheart as there are so many beautiful pieces in that score.  Horner should have an Oscar for it. 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Out of curiosity, is the LLL worth it over just getting the ost?

[NL197 368]

1 hour ago, TitanicFan2018 said:

 

I wonder if it's on the OST or the follow-up album "more music from Braveheart" album if it's not on the LLL album.  I too just started creating a custom complete score for Braveheart.

It is not. 

 

It is however, on my version

10 minutes ago, kaseykockroach said:

Out of curiosity, is the LLL worth it over just getting the ost?

As a loving tribute to James Horner (the album is dedicated to him), and as a listening experience....

 

Absolutely. 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Paying more money just for a dedication? Can't I at least get a windsong with it?

[A. A. Ron 1,738]

21 minutes ago, kaseykockroach said:

Out of curiosity, is the LLL worth it over just getting the ost?

 

Yes. The whole album flows beautifully, even the bonus tracks.

[Bilbo 3,709]

It’s always better to have it all (or close enough) and cut it to your requirements than to have an incomplete form. IMO. 

 

Cur Thor in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

I was moreso referring to if there was any contrast in sound quality.

[NL197 368]

13 minutes ago, kaseykockroach said:

I was moreso referring to if there was any contrast in sound quality.

I'll refer you to a review I co-wrote about that:

http://jameshorner-filmmusic.com/braveheart-expanded-release-review/

Where I stated: 

 
 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Very well then! I assume the whole thing will be too long for my taste, but I'm up for trimming. And don't take such personally, rest assured! So far, The Lost World and Batman Returns are the only two super long scores where I don't want to trim anything.

[NL197 368]

Batman Returns...I admire your sense of endurance. I can't even listen to that score apart from the film. 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

It's one of only two Elfman scores I really truly love (which doesn't necessarily imply I inherently dislike all other Elfman scores, it's just Batman Returns and Nightmare Before Christmas are the special ones for me).

[NL197 368]

In the film I love it, but apart from it I can't and never could get into it like the first film's score. 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

First score is pretty meh for me, beyond the main theme of course.