Star Trek: Picard (2020 TV Series)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

14 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

I think RLM’s high point was their original Plinkett reviews, the ones for the four TNG films. I rewatch those every now and again because they are very entertaining. Even though I don’t have super strong feelings pro or anti the TNG films.

 

First Contact is the one thats really good, and perfectly watchable for the average public. The other 3 are glorified TV eps.

[Pellaeon 581]

I think for a non-Trek-fan, First Contact is the all-around best of the Trek movies, even above ’09.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

It has cool action Picard who shoots members of his own crew!

 

He reminds me of the Batfleck!

[Jurassic Shark 9,804]

4 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

even above ’09.

 

That's not very good, though.

[Pellaeon 581]

19 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

That's not very good, though.

 

Of course not.

 

21 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

It has cool action Picard who shoots members of his own crew!

 

It’s funny how the whole idea behind hunky young Riker in TNG was so that wise old Captain Picard (unlike Captain Kirk) would not be some action hero who would constantly leave his command post. Yet you get to the movies, and Picard is ripped, and beaming around and yelling and shooting and punching. Suddenly, there’s no real point to Riker anymore (who, anyway, is by that time no longer particularly young at all).

 

Teenage me was definitely impressed with the idea that a guy could get into shape in his mid-50s.

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

10 hours ago, crumbs said:

That wouldn't fit with their anti-Rian Johnson narrative so they've completely ignored it. Didn't even get a mention in their miscellaneous 2019 movies video.

 

I'm pretty sure they recorded that episode before Knives Out was released. But I was hoping they'd give it its own episode after.

 

10 hours ago, crumbs said:

I don't care if they hate Last Jedi but sticking fingers in your ears and acting like Johnson is some talentless hack who should never work again is just gaslighting the toxic internet culture.

Have they ever made this argument? I know they overall didn't like the film (but I think they still respected it more than The Force Awakens, in some ways), but I don't think they've acted like Johnson is "some talentless hack".

 

10 hours ago, crumbs said:

It's disingenuous because Johnson is talented as fuck.

 

I agree. And The Last Jedi does have some major problems that taint my enjoyment of it. The Canto Bight sequence really doesn't hold up well on a second watch (though Del Toro is still always fun to watch), Holdo is an unnecessary character who keeps an unnecessary secret, Finn's left essentially treating water, etc. That said I think The Last Jedi is still my favorite of the new trilogy, because IMO most of the Rey/Kylo/Luke material in it is really excellent! (Ironic since that's the part so many fans seem to hate.)

But Last Jedi doesn't hold a candle to Knives Out, which I consider to be a near-perfect film.

 

Yavar

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

3 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Holdo is an unnecessary character who keeps an unnecessary secret,

 

No, she's there so Poe can experience conflict and grow as a person.

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

Just now, Stefancos said:

No, she's there so Poe can experience conflict and grow as a person.

I get the purpose she serves in terms of Poe's development (though I think Leia could have filled that role just as well), but the fact is that her keeping the secret from everyone just does not make much sense in terms of story context.

Yavar

[Edmilson 4,973]

It's funny that a Trek thread once again has become about Star Wars 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

4 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I get the purpose she serves in terms of Poe's development (though I think Leia could have filled that role just as well), but the fact is that her keeping the secret from everyone just does not make much sense in terms of story context.

Yavar

 

She's not keeping a secret, she basically has no intention of sharing her plan with a hot head Leia just demoted.

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

3 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

She's not keeping a secret, she basically has no intention of sharing her plan with a hot head Leia just demoted.

If she had shared her plan with him he would have been less of a hot head. What bad thing could possibly have happened if she had told him what she was planning?

Yavar

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

Information shared on a need to know basis, in a para-military situation? Really?

 

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

Star Trek is better than Star Wars.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

Star Trek Is Better Than Everything!®

[Edmilson 4,973]

9 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Star Trek is better than Star Wars.

 

Not even people here at JWFan believe in that anymore.

 

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

Then they should be made to.

[Giftheck 744]

17 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Then they should be made to.

 

By who? Who's going to make them?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

Someone wise.

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

21 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Then they should be made to.

 

We're pilgrims in an unholy land!

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

51 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Information shared on a need to know basis, in a para-military situation? Really?

I think it was more important to keep the secret from the audience (so there could be a "surprise reveal") than it was to keep the secret from Poe, the character. That's my issue with it. But again I reiterate: I understand the desire to give Poe an arc in this and I don't necessarily disagree with his arc ("failure...the best teacher is" -- I get it!); I just think it could have been handled a little better. Despite demoting him I think Leia would've just told Poe and I guess that's why they had to invent this new character Holdo, who didn't know him.

 

Anyway can we agree that, after being set up as equally a main character to Rey in the previous film (which has its own problems of course), Finn was largely wasted in The Last Jedi?

 

It's kinda amazing to me that the "trio" for these films didn't all meet each other until the end of the 2nd movie out of three. Finn was the one link between them, and IMO he didn't get the development he deserved after The Force Awakens.

Still, I enjoy these new movies despite their flaws and anyone claiming they feel less like Star Wars than the prequels do...is just bonkers.

Yavar

[Quintus 5,394]

Finn was a rubbish character. When you think about it, he's pretty redundant. Sort of like that Canto Bight action sequence. Pointless!

 

Redundancy has plagued this trilogy.

[Pellaeon 581]

7 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I understand the desire to give Poe an arc in this

 

I don’t, honestly. He was a VERY minor character in TFA.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

Who became hugely popular right away.

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

40 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Star Trek is better than Star Wars.

Pretty much comes down to what Star Wars and Trek we are talking about. There's a lot of good and a lot of bad in both (sometimes in the same movie!)

I guess I would agree that Star Trek *at its very best* is better than Star Wars at its very best....but Star Trek at its worst and Star Wars at its worst and both pretty damn cringe-inducing, and I couldn't tell you which comes out as the "winner" in the race to the bottom.
 

9 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

I don’t, honestly. He [Poe] was a VERY minor character in TFA.

Well, that stems from the fact that originally his character was going to be killed off early on. When they decided to have his character surprisingly show up alive later, it was because they liked him so much and wanted to make him a main character going forward...that's why they had to develop him more in Last Jedi.
 

11 minutes ago, Quintus said:

Finn was a rubbish character. When you think about it, he's pretty redundant. Sort of like that Canto Bight action sequence. Pointless!

Agree with you on the Canto Bight sequence, not on Finn. What is "rubbish" or "redundant" about a former stormtrooper switching sides and joining the Rebellion? I think that's a fairly original and interesting idea, and I found his character very appealing in The Force Awakens.

Yavar

[Quintus 5,394]

I agree with all that, in The Force Awakens. But he had practically nowt to do by the time the second film came around, and his subplot felt contrived for the sake of keeping him involved. I haven't seen the third movie.

[Nick Parker 3,034]

1 minute ago, Quintus said:

I haven't seen the third movie.

 

 

 

If the worst is Star Wars is Rise of Skywalker I'd probably take it over the worst of Star Trek.

 

 

 

[Edmilson 4,973]

54 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

I think it was more important to keep the secret from the audience (so there could be a "surprise reveal") than it was to keep the secret from Poe, the character. That's my issue with it. But again I reiterate: I understand the desire to give Poe an arc in this and I don't necessarily disagree with his arc ("failure...the best teacher is" -- I get it!); I just think it could have been handled a little better. Despite demoting him I think Leia would've just told Poe and I guess that's why they had to invent this new character Holdo, who didn't know him.

 

Anyway can we agree that, after being set up as equally a main character to Rey in the previous film (which has its own problems of course), Finn was largely wasted in The Last Jedi?

 

 

Think this way: Holdo and Leia were from higher rankings than Poe.

 

The last time Poe was in action, he jumped into battle and almost annihilated the entire Resistance fleet. Leia and Holdo's plan was to actually preserve the fleet, and given Poe's actions at the Battle of D'Qar, he wasn't exactly trustworthy. By both women's calculations, he would try to defeat the First Order at all costs, no matter how much Resistance lives this would take.

 

Poe starts the movie as a pilot ready to jump into battle, and ends as a leader concearned with the safety of his colleagues.

 

About Finn, I disagree, I think TLJ improved the character in every way. I've written about it a few days ago on TROS thread:

 

Quote

On TFA, I didn't liked how the character's arcs were handled, but then when I watched TLJ, I thought it improved the characters greatly.

 

On the first movie, Finn abandoned the First Order after his first time on a conflict - about 20 minutes later, actually, which is weird, but anyway. But then, on TLJ, by the beginning of the movie, he sees that the Resistance almost being annihilated and he decides to abandon then as well.

 

I thought this was more consistent with how he was introduced. Whether fighting for the First Order or the Resistance, by that point Finn doesn't exactly have a side on that conflict. Basically, he just wants that he and his friends survive. Is it coward? Probably, but also consistent with the character.

 

Then, during TLJ, he sees how the galaxy has been oppressed, how terrible life is for a lot of its citizens, and he decides to take a stand, to fight, to inspire. His arc with Rose helps the character grow and overcome his flaws, to become the best fighter for the Resistance. Unfortunately, TROS didn't continue this arc of growth, but anyway.

 

As for Poe, on the first movie we only know him as hotshot pilot, who is trusted by Leia and commands the Resistance pilots during battles. Cool, but thin as a paper.

 

Then, on TLJ, he learns that he still have a lot to learn on how to best face the enemy, how to be a leader for its soldiers even in face of unfavorable odds - which he does, by the end of the movie ("Why are you looking at me? Follow him!").

 

In some ways, TLJ is about errors, failures, defeat, but also about growth despite the defeats. Our characters, Rey, Poe, Finn, Kylo, Luke, they all fail because of their personal flaws, but they (at least the heroes) learn how to overcome their flaws in order to become better people and better help their cause.

•  

 

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

1 hour ago, Nick Parker said:

If the worst is Star Wars is Rise of Skywalker I'd probably take it over the worst of Star Trek.

 

People who think Rise of Skywalker is the worst of Star Wars have either very poor judgement or very short memories...

 

It don't get ANY worse than that, folks, no matter how much the new films upset you. Be honest with yourselves.

Actually, maybe it does get worse, if we go beyond the live action films...

 

Good grief.

 

Yavar

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

I'll take Lucas's writing and direction over Disney's.

 

[Quintus 5,394]

No. Attack of the Clones was Star Wars in the gutter. Lowest of the low, a major turkey like Revolution and Ishtar before it.

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

2 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

I'll take Lucas's writing and direction over Disney's.

Then you just aren't thinking rationally. Almost any still frame from the new movies looks SO much better than any still frame from the fake-ass prequels. Say what you will about choices Rian Johnson made in The Last Jedi... it is BEAUTIFULLY directed on a technical level, with some truly amazing images. The screen is just an ugly mess 98% of the time in the prequels.

And if you think ANYTHING in the sequel trilogy is even HALF as bad as the "I don't like sand" monologue, I just question your sanity. The entire Anakin/Padme relationship, *every* scene, is just nonstop cringe.

The new films are largely a mess, and they *really* needed to be planned out well in advance...that said, they actually have appealing characters we care about, and occasional emotional resonance. The only emotional resonance (and only enjoyable character) in the prequels is McDiarmid's Palpatine, because he's just having so much fun hamming it up as the ultimate evil.

Yavar

 

[Nick Parker 3,034]

2 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

 

People who think Rise of Skywalker is the worst of Star Wars have either very poor judgement or very short memories...

 

It don't get ANY worse than that, folks, no matter how much the new films upset you. Be honest with yourselves.

Actually, maybe it does get worse, if we go beyond the live action films...

 

Good grief.

 

Yavar

 

 

 

 

Would you, or would you not, take the worst of Star Trek, over any of those moments!? Need I remind you the worst of Star Trek includes this!:

 

 

And THIS!:

 

 

And THIS!:

 

 

Whoops, that one's from my hard drive. Uhhhhhhhh, and THIS!:

 

 

 

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

9 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

Would you, or would you not, take the worst of Star Trek, over any of those moments!? Need I remind you the worst of Star Trek includes this!:

 

 

And THIS!:

 

 

I find the Star Wars prequels just as cringeworthy and difficult to watch as the worst of Star Trek, frankly...

 

11 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

Uhhhhh....score one point for Star Trek?

 

12 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

 

 

 

....aaaaand deduct five points. Star Trek Into Darkness is the only Trek I hate as much as the Star Wars prequels (Nemesis came close)....UGH!

Yavar

[Arpy 4,090]

Attack of the Clones is a misunderstood movie. 

[Edmilson 4,973]

Into Darkness is not the worst movie Jar Jar Abrams has directed...

 

 

.... because 6.5 years later he released TROS.

[Holko 8,228]

Yes! Many people somehow don't think it's worthless garbage.

4 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Attack of the Clones is a misunderstood movie. 

 

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Into Darkness is not the worst movie Jar Jar Abrams has directed...

 

...yes it is.  It is (and will hopefully remain) the worst thing he's ever done.

 

I do wish he would go back to doing original stuff... my favorite JJ Abrams movie is *easily* Super 8.

Yavar

[Nick Parker 3,034]

11 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

original stuff... my favorite JJ Abrams movie is *easily* Super 8.

 

 

Who's the one not thinking rationally now!?

[Edmilson 4,973]

My favorite Abrams-directed movie is Star Trek 09. I know many people don't like it, but since I was never much of a trekker myself, I watched and thought it was a pretty good, funny and well paced action flick set on space. I was hyped for Into Darkness in 2013, because I liked the 2009 movie.

 

Aside from it, however, I thought his other movies are either okay-ish at best or outright terrible (STID, TROS).

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

I feel the opposite about George Lucas and Star Wars as I feel about Roddenberry and Trek. With Trek, it really peaked when he died. By the mid-90s, the quality and fandom of Trek was unbelievable. Basically, as he stepped aside and eventually had no input, it got better. I think we can agree that Star Wars was best with Lucas running the show. I mean, even if you don't like the prequels, with him, we got the original trilogy!

 

Both franchises are very mismanaged at this point.

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

17 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

Who's the one not thinking rationally now!?

 

There's plenty of homage to other films in Super 8, obviously, but at least it's not a remake, reboot, or sequel. He wrote an original(ish) story with original characters, and I for one really liked it!
 

3 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

My favorite Abrams-directed movie is Star Trek 09. I know many people don't like it, but since I was never much of a trekker myself, I watched and thought it was a pretty good, funny and well paced action flick set on space. I was hyped for Into Darkness in 2013, because I liked the 2009 movie.

The '09 film gave me high hopes for the Star Trek franchise. I hoped that they would fix some of the stupid elements of it and capitalize on the good ones. I did really enjoy it in theater as a popcorn flick, despite really disliking some of the casting (Zachary Quinto is a great actor as Heroes and even American Horror Story shows, but though he looked the part, he turned out to be an absolutely TERRIBLE Spock, IMO.) Karl Urban as McCoy was just AMAZING, though. Wish he'd been treated more as a main character in all three films. But overall I'd say that Abrams Trek was all downhill after the excellent opening sequence of the first film, which really has some emotional resonance with me still (Giacchino's "Labor of Love" cue, the best thing he's ever written for Trek, certainly helped).
 

3 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

I feel the opposite about George Lucas and Star Wars as I feel about Roddenberry and Trek. With Trek, it really peaked when he died. By the mid-90s, the quality and fandom of Trek was unbelievable. Basically, as he stepped aside and eventually had no input, it got better. I think we can agree that Star Wars was best with Lucas running the show. I mean, even if you don't like the prequels, with him, we got the original trilogy!

The prequels were the absolute WORST Star Wars ever, with him both writing and directing and being able to do whatever he wanted.

On the original trilogy, he wasn't really "running the show" as much -- a lot of people pushed back on a lot of his worse original ideas, and were involved in supplying some of the best ideas. The original Star Wars was largely saved in editing, though it clearly doesn't have an amazing script. The Empire Strikes Back was the best of the original trilogy, and Lucas didn't write OR direct it! Then he came back and co-wrote Return of the Jedi (and also had a lot more control over the "hired hand" director than he did over Kirshner for Empire), and most people seem to agree that was a step down again.

Yavar

[Disco Stu 15,475]

Can this Star Wars stuff....not be here?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

Yavar, just because you look like Spock doesn't make you right.

[Arpy 4,090]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

Yes! Many people somehow don't think it's worthless garbage.

 

One man's trash is another man's treasure. 

 

In all seriousness: I recently rewatched the film and found some surprisingly decent moments here and there. The biggest fumble is obviously how the characters were written and the love story, but given more revisions from a more experienced writer and some of the film's painfully terrible moments could be elevated. It's like the characters were written as if they were being observed from ten feet away through binoculars, I think Lucas really needed to bring another writer on to properly give life to these characters. 

[Edmilson 4,973]

This video summarizes well what Lucas tried to achieve with Attack of the Clones, and why he failed miserably:

 

 

Like he did on the OT, he should really have relied on other screenwriters and directors on the prequels.

[Holko 8,228]

It's probably one of the worst films I've ever sat through. (Because usually I just stop watching them or never start in the first place)

[Quintus 5,394]

12 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

And if you think ANYTHING in the sequel trilogy is even HALF as bad as the "I don't like sand" monologue, I just question your sanity. 

 

I don't know half of Star Wars half as well as I should like; and I like less that half of it half as well as it deserves.

[Yavar Moradi 1,815]

17 hours ago, Arpy said:

One man's trash is another man's treasure. 

 

In all seriousness: I recently rewatched the film and found some surprisingly decent moments here and there. The biggest fumble is obviously how the characters were written and the love story, but given more revisions from a more experienced writer and some of the film's painfully terrible moments could be elevated. It's like the characters were written as if they were being observed from ten feet away through binoculars, I think Lucas really needed to bring another writer on to properly give life to these characters. 

 

There is literally ONE decent moment in the whole movie that (for that moment) made me think it might actually turn out interesting. It's when Obi-Wan has been captured by Dooku, who is explaining to him how wrong he is, telling him there is a Sith controlling things, etc. In that moment, here's what my brain thought: "OMG! Count Dooku is actually the GOOD guy! They were brilliantly casting Christopher Lee against type, making you think he was going to be another Saruman character, when all along he is the only one who realizes the Jedi are being duped! He is being painted as the enemy by the media and the ignorant. He is actually the tragic hero of this story, who the Jedi will oppose and defeat (incorrectly thinking he is the enemy) to their own detriment. They will silence the only person who is paying attention to Palpatine's manipulations. Obi-Wan will be a part of that initially but will eventually realize his mistake once it's too late!"

All of that flashed through my head, and I was onboard. It would have been an interesting plot and good use of Christopher Lee and his character. But nope. Turns out he's just another "boss" bad guy. That scene was all him just fucking with Obi-Wan, and he's actually just yet another lieutenant of Palpatine (so why say what he said in that scene to Obi-Wan, then?) Back to the Boring Predictable and Stupid show.

Yavar

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

I only made it about 10-15 minutes into episode 2 (of Picard, that is) before falling asleep and there was a lot of murdering, sex, "shit" and two f bombs! What the hell is going on here?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,256]

8 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

I only made it about 10-15 minutes into episode 2 (of Picard, that is) before falling asleep and there was a lot of murdering, sex, "shit" and two f bombs! What the hell is going on here?

 

In season 1 of TNG Picard says "merde" a few times.