Star Trek: Picard (2020 TV Series)

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

It's Star Trek. No one's ever really dead.

 

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

It's Star Trek. No one's ever really dead.

 

 

Only if you’re a main character. See Lower Decks 😜

[Brónach 1,302]

I'm really enjoying Lower Decks, despite what it looks like.

[Andy 4,127]

I tried to watch Lower Decks but I think I’m too much of an Old Fart to enjoy it.  I’ll have to give it another whirl, but I am not thrilled about the LD crossover with SNW. 
 

Captain Shaw is strong enough a character to get his own show.  Easily.  Just the Goldilocks blend of obnoxiousness and flaws, but compellingly likable with a true wanting to do the right thing under pressure.  Arguably the most relatable Trek character since the 90s.  It’s almost as if he was plucked from the Orville universe, except he’s a more emotionally wounded. 
 

Spoiler

Interesting that this week’s new Mandalorian episode features a similar sacrificial death of a similarly abrasive yet lovable character in an identical perilous escape!

 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

On 23/3/2023 at 5:41 PM, A. A. Ron said:

Season 3 is just a "little" better? What are you smoking? It's leaps and bounds better!

 

I must say this quote of mine did not age as well as I would have hoped. The first half of this season was shockingly strong. The last half... not so much. The bad writing is back and I don't see any way for the last episode to salvage the dumb plot that has been unleashed upon us over the last couple of weeks. I expect there will be at least 1-2 more surprise cameos, but there isn't enough time left to do any of the really crazy ones people have suggested and make it feel organic. Looking at you

Spoiler

Kirk

 

If nothing else, it was nice to have the warm fuzzies the first few episodes were able to provide and I'll definitely give the soundtrack a spin when it gets its official release. I just can't give this season the unconditional recommendation I wanted to.

[Giftheck 916]

Personally, I think that it's only dipped a bit but overall remains much stronger than anything in the first two seasons. Maybe the clues that this was what it was leading up to were a bit too subtle, but they were there. I know some built up expectations and ran with their predictions (lots of Pah Wraith theories now in flames) but to me: sure, it's hardly original, but, let's be honest here:

 

Spoiler

the Borg have always been the biggest enemy Picard ever faced

 

They were never going to use a non-TNG threat as anything more than a secondary villain. It's not this season's fault that they basically butchered this threat. If anything, I think this is the most threatening I've seen them, restoring a lot of the horror that has been lost post-TNG movies.

 

I can't even begin to guess what'll happen in the final episode beyond the obvious thing that the big bad will wind up defeated. I personally think they've flown fairly high and mostly well this season, I just hope they stick the landing.

[Andy 4,127]

Decent article:

 

Spoiler

https://collider.com/picard-season-3-captain-shaw-death-explained-terry-matalas/

 

[Giftheck 916]

Final episode preview

 

 

[leeallen01 2,136]

Finally decided to give in and check out Picard season 3...

 

I don't get the hype. I gave up half way through the 3rd episode. It's the same old miserable, depressing story with a cliche laughing villain on a Nemesis style evil looking pointy ship with the same old Kurtzman style mystery box plot with a planet destroying super-weapon... And I'm so sick of all the ships being pitch black inside!

The Orville is the true continuation of Trek. Self-contained episodes that explore interesting moral questions in a fun and optimistic way. And they actually explore strange new world, and they seek out new life! etc. And the ships have actual lights turned on inside!

 

I'm officially done with Trek. I was sucked back in by hearing good things, but nope, I don't see it. I'll stick to classic Trek.

[wowbobwow 69]

On 13/04/2023 at 4:40 PM, Giftheck said:

 

Can we just bin Kurtzman entirely and let Matalas handle the future of Star Trek?

 

It would be a step in the right direction.  It makes me wonder if Matalas had been given more time, a bigger budget, and the means to produce this outside of Kurtzman's production company what it would have looked like.  It's clear the guy has the passion and interest for Star Trek that has been sorely lacking in these newer shows outside of Lower Decks.

 

Matalas and Seth McFarlane being in charge of the franchise would be an even bigger step in the right direction.

 

  

On 16/04/2023 at 7:25 AM, leeallen01 said:

Finally decided to give in and check out Picard season 3...

 

I don't get the hype. I gave up half way through the 3rd episode. It's the same old miserable, depressing story with a cliche laughing villain on a Nemesis style evil looking pointy ship with the same old Kurtzman style mystery box plot with a planet destroying super-weapon... And I'm so sick of all the ships being pitch black inside!

The Orville is the true continuation of Trek. Self-contained episodes that explore interesting moral questions in a fun and optimistic way. And they actually explore strange new world, and they seek out new life! etc. And the ships have actual lights turned on inside!

 

I'm officially done with Trek. I was sucked back in by hearing good things, but nope, I don't see it. I'll stick to classic Trek.

 

I'm with you.  People are so normalized to these newer shows being terrible that any whiff of what the franchise used to be is getting them excited.

[Giftheck 916]

No. Keep Seth McFarlane away from Star Trek, please. Can't stand the guy. The Orville is overrated at best and just plain awful at worst.

[wowbobwow 69]

On 14/04/2023 at 5:41 PM, A. A. Ron said:

 

I must say this quote of mine did not age as well as I would have hoped. The first half of this season was shockingly strong. The last half... not so much. The bad writing is back and I don't see any way for the last episode to salvage the dumb plot that has been unleashed upon us over the last couple of weeks. I expect there will be at least 1-2 more surprise cameos, but there isn't enough time left to do any of the really crazy ones people have suggested and make it feel organic. Looking at you

  Reveal hidden contents

Kirk

 

If nothing else, it was nice to have the warm fuzzies the first few episodes were able to provide and I'll definitely give the soundtrack a spin when it gets its official release. I just can't give this season the unconditional recommendation I wanted to.

And this is why mystery box Star Trek is bad.  A promising start with the withholding of mysterious character information ("what's going on with Jack?"), a meandering middle ("Wow, can't believe they really haven't told us what's going on with Jack by now"), and the eventual unfulfilling payoffs to the mystery box set ups.

Spoiler

("Christ, he's a Borg??")

 

1 minute ago, Giftheck said:

No. Keep Seth McFarlane away from Star Trek, please. Can't stand the guy. The Orville is overrated at best and just plain awful at worst.

You would rather have Kurtzman over him?  I think the worst of the Orville is more watchable than what most of these new shows offer.

[Giftheck 916]

2 minutes ago, wowbobwow said:

You would rather have Kurtzman over him?  I think the worst of the Orville is more watchable than what most of these new shows offer.

 

I do recall saying the words "can we please bin Kurtzman" which you would know since you quoted that very post. I can have that sentiment while also wanting McFarlane far away from Trek.

[wowbobwow 69]

1 minute ago, Giftheck said:

 

I do recall saying the words "can we please bin Kurtzman" which you would know since you quoted that very post. I can have that sentiment while also wanting McFarlane far away from Trek.

 

Sorry, my bad. 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,892]

[leeallen01 2,136]

Orville season 3 is the best Trek since the 90's. 

 

The core of Star Trek has always been an optimistic exploration of ideas, where we question our moral choices and beliefs, while having an adventure into the unknown.

 

The Orville is every single one of those and more, including throwing in the Trek films levels of Score quality.

 

I've since checked out the overt fan-service moments of Picard season 3, such as the SPOILER ALERT I GUESS - recent Enterprise D member berries and it's heartwarming yes, to see them celebrate the Enterprise and the crew like they are meaningful to the audience instead of the trend of deconstructing and insulting them, but it's still very in-your-face fan service that feels very artificial and extremely forced. It's kind of having the same effect on older Trek fans as Force Awakens did on older Star Wars fans, with the "member han solo!!!?" "Member x-wings?!?!" Etc etc. They were all overwhelmed with the initial hit, but after they came down from the high, all realised how ultimately empty it is and ended up reevaluating their thoughts. I'm not saying Picard season 3 is empty. It is a big step in the right direction and I do understand the love for it from my fellow Trek fans. It does satify many much needed and sorely missed Trek attributes.

 

As a huge Star Trek fan, I was insanely moved and emotionally in awe of the launch of the Orville in the first episode of season 3, and that show has zero nostalgia, zero connection to decades of previous characters and ships etc, but as the Enterprise D launched with the original crew, I was happy and it was heartwarming yes, but I felt far more from the similar scene in Seth's 'essentially' Star Trek tribute show. E.g. Seth launched the Orville with a grand musical and visual fanfare for what seemed like minutes. Treating it with the honour of an iconic ship like the Enterprise D. Yet the Enterprise D was launched in about 10 seconds on Picard. 

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

11 hours ago, wowbobwow said:

Matalas and Seth McFarlane being in charge of the franchise would be an even bigger step in the right direction.

 

I'm with you.  People are so normalized to these newer shows being terrible that any whiff of what the franchise used to be is getting them excited.

 

Works for me! The new Star Trek shows just seem tonally all wrong as much as anything else. S3 of Picard is an improvement but from a low baseline. I guess it’s still lumbered with the “didn’t everyone have a crap life after the Enterprise/Voyager and Starfleet has gone to shit” storyline and it’s still much more of a sci-of action show than a broadly cerebral one with the occasional bit of action to support the narrative. It’s somewhat the issue that plagues the movies (both some of the original 6, more so the TNG movies and very much the JJ movies) which focus on action/adventure with the thematic stuff pushed to the background. The Orville has plenty of great space battles in it but they are not at the expense of meaningful stories. 

[Brónach 1,302]

Lower Decks nails it a lot of the time I think.

[1977 1,743]

 

 

Another cue posted (or should I say unlocked) by Lakeshore

 

 

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Joe laughing at the orville is blah blah blah.

[Giftheck 916]

55 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

Joe laughing at the orville is blah blah blah.

 

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

On 17/4/2023 at 5:48 PM, leeallen01 said:

Orville season 3 is the best Trek since the 90's. 

 

Agree with almost everything you wrote. I'll just add that I think Orville has been outstanding from the start, and I'd even say I enjoyed the first couple seasons more than the third. But they're all outstanding.

 

Orville is Star Trek in everything but name; nuTrek is Star Trek in name only. Picard Season 3 is definitely a step up, but still has many of the same issues that plague all nuTrek shows.

[leeallen01 2,136]

12 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

Agree with almost everything you wrote. I'll just add that I think Orville has been outstanding from the start, and I'd even say I enjoyed the first couple seasons more than the third. But they're all outstanding.

 

Orville is Star Trek in everything but name; nuTrek is Star Trek in name only. Picard Season 3 is definitely a step up, but still has many of the same issues that plague all nuTrek shows.

 

 

Yeah, I was just comparing season 3 of Orville to season 3 of Picard. I also love season 1 and 2 of The Orville and think all 3 seasons are just as great as each other.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Ok, I admit I was wrong. That last episode was completely fine. I still think the 3 preceding episodes were a bit of a letdown and that the villains generally just become tiresome by the end, but the heroes were handled really well and that tease for a potential Legacy series in the mid credits was pretty good. I'm glad the Next Gen crew got a decent send off and I'm really looking forward to digging into the soundtrack!

[leeallen01 2,136]

As I didn't make it past episode 3, is Janeway in any of this season?

[NL197 368]

4 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

As I didn't make it past episode 3, is Janeway in any of this season?

 

Spoiler

No, but another Voyager cast member is. 

 

That cast member is: 

 

Spoiler

Tim Russ (Tuvok)

 

[Andy 4,127]

That was really, really moving. They righted the wrongs of Nemesis. 
 

As a whole, the season feels disjointed because so much time was spent on the Changeling threat but it didn’t really resolve well or mesh with the real threat.   It was still solid, and I’m glad they did it.   That crew has so much infectious chemistry, you can’t help but forgive the shortcomings.   But what a fine and beautiful ending and setup for a Legacy show. 

[Laserschwert 475]

Spoiler

That closing poker game was a nice idea, but that long top-down-view during the credits looked really weird. Was it even poker they were playing? Plus that table clearly wasn't made for card games, as the cast constantly had trouble picking up the cards. That shot could have used a bit more care, as it lingered for so long and was designed as a ribbon around the emotionally fueled farewell sequences that came before.

 

The first 5 seconds of the episode on the other hand... perfect!

 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

11 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

As I didn't make it past episode 3, is Janeway in any of this season?

 

Spoiler

The main writer for this season just did an interview where he said he had wanted to feature Harry Kim as a Captain this season and had written an appearance by Janeway in the finale where she was supposed to promote Seven of Nine to Captain as well. This role was given instead to Tuvok in the finished episode.

 

[Giftheck 916]

All because his line producer (Kurtzman would be his immediate superior,  right?) said "are you nuts? We can't afford that!" (While giving Matalas the lowest budget of the series)

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

It can’t really have been the lowest budget, can it? I assumed they just spent it all on the Next Gen cast.

[Andy 4,127]

Nice Anton Yelchin tribute there. 

[Giftheck 916]

4 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

It can’t really have been the lowest budget, can it? I assumed they just spent it all on the Next Gen cast.

 

I remember reading somewhere that they didn't have the same budget as the first two seasons. It could be that was inferred from having to bring back the cast of TNG, though.

8 hours ago, Andy said:

That was really, really moving. They righted the wrongs of Nemesis. 
 

As a whole, the season feels disjointed because so much time was spent on the Changeling threat but it didn’t really resolve well or mesh with the real threat.   It was still solid, and I’m glad they did it.   That crew has so much infectious chemistry, you can’t help but forgive the shortcomings.   But what a fine and beautiful ending and setup for a Legacy show. 

 

I kind of feel like if they resolved the Changeling plotline an episode earlier, and then had an extra episode dealing with the actual threat, then all the elements of that last act would have had more room to breathe. However, overall, it was much more solid than the previous season and I found myself much more satisfied with it than I was disappointed at some of the shortcomings. Kind of a flip on how I viewed The Madalorian's season ending.

 

Some observations:

 

Spoiler

Boy, they one-upped the creep factor on the Borg with this. They could have taken the easy route and just had them 'as they were', magically restored from what happened to them before, but they took what Voyager left and ran with it.

 

Kind of a shame they couldn't fit Kate Mulgrew into the budget, because Seven's promotion to Captain should really have been Janeway's to bestow. I never did buy her being in the final fight though. This was always going to be a Titan/Enterprise tag team effort.

 

That the Titan becomes the new Enterprise was not surprising to me in the slightest given the class was a Constitution III instead of a Shangri La II. I know that has pissed a few people off - either fans of the Oddysey class Enterprise-F or people who think each successive Enterprise has to be the toughest, fastest and most advanced ship Starfleet has ever pressed into service. The Enterprise-A was practically an antique when it was pressed into service, already made obsolete by the Excelsior-class, for instance.

 

Q's return was... well, I kind of knew he'd be in it. He's probably at an earlier point in his timeline given the whole line about hoping that Jack would have been thinking in a non-linear fashion. Qs probably have centuries, millennia, even, before they actually complete the process of dying.

 

[leeallen01 2,136]

I saw a clip on twitter. I hope it was a clip from a game or perhaps a fan-made thing, but can anyone confirm whether - 

 

Spoiler

The enterprise D suddenly became the Falcon and flew through the deathstar Borg cube like it was a tiny fighter ship and not a trillion tonne, mile long graceful city in space?

 

However, I'm glad for the Trek fans that really enjoyed this season. I wish I could have connected to it enough to continue after episode 3. I hope we get a Star Trek Legacy where the showrunner for this season really gets his vision from the start and doesn't have to work around Kurtzman shite and new trek trash aesthetic. But it appears that they're going right back to Kurtzman style new series after this... they never learn.

[Tallguy 3,386]

1 hour ago, leeallen01 said:

I saw a clip on twitter. I hope it was a clip from a game or perhaps a fan-made thing, but can anyone confirm whether - 

 

It was an homage to Return of the Jedi's 40th anniversary.

[wowbobwow 69]

That finale..

At least kill someone off. 

Spoiler

Kill off Riker. Frakes has a solid gig behind the camera.

 

[Tallguy 3,386]

Yes, killing off a main character in a finale has always worked so well. (RIP Trip Tucker.)

 

Death != Weight.

[wowbobwow 69]

25 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Yes, killing off a main character in a finale has always worked so well. (RIP Trip Tucker.)

 

Death != Weight.

 

Yeah but what are the stakes if everyone is wearing plot armor?

It was standard fare for a legacy sequel at the end of the day. 

Spoiler

Star Trek The Borg Awakened

 

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

Well, that was a reasonably satisfying ending, and a much better send-off than Nemesis (if indeed it was a send-off). Too bad it took 9 episodes to get there. And like the 9 episodes preceding it, the finale looked and felt more like a TNG movie than an episode of the series, but that's fine I guess. It had a lot of the same issues as the other nuTrek shows, but it mostly hit all the right emotional notes (especially the 2nd half) and this episode alone (and all of Picard Season 3) was the best Star Trek we've gotten since Enterprise went off the air. Which admittedly is a low bar.

 

Anyway, I stuck through it until the end, which is more than I can say for Season 2, or Discovery.

[Tallguy 3,386]

Watching again (that has to count for something, right?) and while we all love Jerry's (Joel's?) Borg theme I can't help but think that there should have been some statements of Ron Jones' Borg choir in there. I mean if you want to play Star Trek music that the general populace MIGHT recognize that isn't a series theme or Amok Time, that's gotta be up there, right?

 

Plus, as good as First Contact is in almost every respect, Ron Jones freaking WAS the Borg.

 

Oh! And I love how Dennis McCarthy still scores the last scene on the Enterprise D! That's class.

[Nick1Ø66 4,714]

17 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

Ron Jones freaking WAS the Borg.

 

 

[leeallen01 2,136]

I saw a picture of a transmission saying 

 

Spoiler

Anton Chekov.

 

What a lovely tribute to Anton Yelchin. Just shows how much respect the new showrunner for season 3 has for Star Trek.

 

[Andy 4,127]

2 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Oh! And I love how Dennis McCarthy still scores the last scene on the Enterprise D! That's class.

YES! That quote of To Live Forever from Generations.  Woven in right and proper.   Love that theme. 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,892]

Man, this was such a great scene...

 

Spoiler

 

And when the Borg Queen said "You will take the throne"... goosebumps.

 

[Tom Guernsey 2,284]

11 hours ago, Tallguy said:

Watching again (that has to count for something, right?) and while we all love Jerry's (Joel's?) Borg theme I can't help but think that there should have been some statements of Ron Jones' Borg choir in there. I mean if you want to play Star Trek music that the general populace MIGHT recognize that isn't a series theme or Amok Time, that's gotta be up there, right?

 

Plus, as good as First Contact is in almost every respect, Ron Jones freaking WAS the Borg.

I reproduce my comments from the general Star Trek thread here in support, having been inspired to listen to Jones' score to Q-Who which is top notch and a perfect prelude to The Best of Both Worlds. Much though I love Jerry, Jones' Borg theme is far more effective and sinister than Jerry's from First Contact. The use of a synth choir that, in any other circumstance, would only suggest budget constraints, as absolutely perfect. That matched with superbly sinister minor key chord progressions... to be fair, it worked better when the Borg were a more sinister, unknowable and existential threat than in First Contact and later when they evolved (assimilated into?) a somewhat more generic cyborg threat.

[Giftheck 916]

The OST has now officially been unveiled on Lakeshore's YouTube channel.

 

 

[Tallguy 3,386]

The music was pretty good across the board. But there are some really really terrific Motion Picture theme quotes.

 

I'd rather hear something like Ottman's take on Can You Read My Mind that might not have the artistry or finesse that Williams does (according to a whole bunch of haters anyway) than to hear the umpteenth needle drop of The Enterprise. I already own the album. Several times, thank you.

 

Make It So is GLORIOUS.

[Faleel 5,348]

I'd rather not have cold and sterile statements of warm themes thank you very much.

[Tallguy 3,386]

2 hours ago, A Farewell to Kings said:

I'd rather not have cold statements of warm themes thank you very much.

 

I think you're on the wrong board to object to making a theme do anything you want it to.

 

Plus the coldest statement (IMHO) of a Star Trek theme was Horner's Wrath of Khan theme here:

 

 

(4:33 if the link doesn't work.)

 

I didn't think Make it So was cold, it was determined.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

5 hours ago, Giftheck said:

The OST has now officially been unveiled on Lakeshore's YouTube channel.

 

 

Wow listening to this on its own especially makes me realize how much of a significant step up this season's score was

It's a lot more traditional than I realized! I really enjoy the Titan's theme