Film cues Williams got wrong

[Josh500 1,615]

26 minutes ago, Loert said:

Aunt Marge's Waltz isn't that great either, it's a bit too "wink-wink-nudge-nudge" for my tastes.

 

It's an obvious homage to Rossini's Thieving Magpie! I love it.

 

 

38 minutes ago, Score said:

I also have a problem with the Short Round theme (and all the instances when it appears) from Temple of Doom. 

 

What problems do you have with it?

[Jurassic Shark 12,065]

Perhaps his CD is scratched so he has problems listening to it.

[Score 770]

51 minutes ago, Loert said:

 

 

Ok, maybe it was too strong an assumption on my side. I reserve the right to change my mind after I hear the glorious expanded releases of the whole Indiana Jones Tetralogy that will surely appear at some time, in the next 5 or 6 decades.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

 

What problems do you have with it?

 

My problem starts with the character: I don't like the kind of comic relief that it is supposed to provide, which I find inappropriate in that movie for various reasons (I'm not blaming the young actor, he is not guilty of the director's choice). The theme and the parts of the score written for him enhance that aspect. Maybe it is exactly what JW was asked to do, and maybe it was even the bst possibility given the premise, but I don't like the result. Other parts of the score are wonderful, of course.

 

 

 

[Josh500 1,615]

4 minutes ago, Score said:

My problem starts with the character: I don't like the kind of comic relief that it is supposed to provide, which I find inappropriate in that movie for various reasons (I'm not blaming the young actor, he is not guilty of the director's choice). The theme and the parts of the score written for him enhance that aspect. Maybe it is exactly what JW was asked to do, and maybe it was even the bst possibility given the premise, but I don't like the result. Other parts of the score are wonderful, of course.

 

 

 

 

So you just don't like the character.

 

Well, I don't agree with you (I think Short Round is one of the most memorable and sympathetic characters in the entire Indiana Jones saga!), but I respect your opinion.

[Jurassic Shark 12,065]

A wonderful child actor.

[Alex 2,835]

I will not hear a word against Aunt Marge’s Waltz and I demand the permanent banning from this forum of anyone who dares speak ill of that cue

[Score 770]

13 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

 

So you just don't like the character.

 

Well, I don't agree with you (I think Short Round is one of the most memorable and sympathetic characters in the entire Indiana Jones saga!), but I respect your opinion.

 

Not just the character: I really don't like the music for that character (that's what the topic of the thread is about). In my view, it makes the character even worse. Of course, if you like the character instead, it's very likely that you also like his theme, in this case. 

 

Maybe I should put this in the "unpopular opinions" thread as well...?

[Datameister 2,042]

While I really love to listen to ESB's complete score, including the many unused passages, I agree that some of them really wouldn't have been right for the film. Very little of the unused lightsaber duel music achieves the tone I would expect...the music for the confrontation with the probe droid is awesome but far too weird for the scene...Yoda's scenes definitely benefit from the dialing out of some of the score...again, this is all stuff I'm glad he wrote, but I don't think it would have served the film well. And in the realm of Star Wars, the original cue for "Binary Sunset" is a pretty obvious misstep.

 

The unused original first half of "Escaping the Pit" from Raiders would have been way wrong for the scene. The fix that Williams wrote is better, and the additional tracking of the Raiders March helps the film, too.

 

La La Land's recent E.T. album reveals what a disaster the original music for the spaceship's first departure would have been. Absolutely love the direction he took it in for the revised cue (as well as the similar passage he wrote for the departure from Tatooine in Jedi).

 

I'll take major flak for this, but I think "Ewok Celebration" is a total miss, and I greatly prefer the new "Victory Celebration" that Williams wrote all those years later. One of the few good things to come from the SEs. Donning my flame-retardant suit now...

 

I'm not a fan of most of the inserts Williams wrote for "Out of Fuel" in TOD, especially the ones that introduce rests into the middle of the cue. The original version of the cue is better all around.

 

I seem to recall there being a couple of largely unused cues in Hook when the titular villain is threatening the kids on his ship, fairly early on. Those feel weird when played with the film. I can't help loving "Banning Back Home", though. Objectively, I know it's a total (intentional) rip-off, and I know it's completely out of place in the score, but I just enjoy the cue so much that I don't worry about it.

 

Not a fan of the mostly unused "Hungry Raptor" cue from JP. I mean, I enjoy it in and of itself, but it feels too cartoonish for use in the film. "Into the Kitchen" ("The Raptor Attack") feels pretty weird if you try to listen to it with that scene in the film, too, though I love the cue overall. I'm ambivalent about "Goat Bait." For TLW, I approve of the disuse of some of the music in San Diego, too (although I think many of the music editing decisions in the final cut of the film overall make it a less interesting score).

 

From TPM, "Anakin Defeats Sebulba" baffles me. It fits the scene it was used in sooooooooo much better than the scene it was written for (aside from that final statement of Anakin's theme). I definitely think the badass statement of the Trade Federation theme from "The Armies Face Off" works a lot better when the battle droids are later deployed, as heard in the film.

 

The original "Owl's Flight" from HPSS is a pretty weird cue for that scene. I wonder what Williams saw for this scene in the spotting sessions. Whatever it was, the gorgeous revised cue is a vast improvement.

 

Then there's TLJ, whose score drops the ball far too many times to count. Weird uses of themes (e.g., Kylo Ren's theme when the First Order fleet appears), awkward transitions with passages already written for previous scores, insane overuse of been-there-done-that renditions of the Force theme, etc. Don't get me wrong, there's some stuff I love in that score, but it's got some crazy misfires in there.

[crumbs 14,306]

Well, that's a pretty comprehensive list @Datameister!

 

I certainly agree with many of those examples (the baffling intended version of Anakin Defeats Subulba, plus almost all cues that were dialed out of the final cut) and disagree with others (misfires in TLJ, which I consider impressively woven into the overall score in complete form, and I can't stand tracks like Banning Back Home).

 

Fully agree that Victory Celebration is a huge improvement on Ewok Celebration, but I know that's an unpopular opinion on here. Ewok Celebration is just terribad.

[Josh500 1,615]

5 hours ago, Score said:

 

Not just the character: I really don't like the music for that character (that's what the topic of the thread is about). In my view, it makes the character even worse. Of course, if you like the character instead, it's very likely that you also like his theme, in this case. 

 

In my opinion, Short Round's theme has a slightly Chinese (or Asian in general) sound. It's full of optimism, energy, and fun. It evokes thoughts of open wilderness and unlimited adventure and possibilities.

 

Not sure what's not to like about it! 

 

The first appearance of the theme (and the character it was written for). Always makes me smile...

 

 

[Holko 9,520]

Vicotry celebration does work much better than Ewok Celebration. 

What the hell is wrong with Anakin Defeats Sebulba?

 

Short Round and his theme are great, he's much less annoying than I remember.

[Score 770]

11 hours ago, Josh500 said:

 

In my opinion, Short Round's theme has a slightly Chinese (or Asian in general) sound. It's full of optimism, energy, and fun. It evokes thoughts of open wilderness and unlimited adventure and possibilities.

 

Not sure what's not to like about it! 

 

Well, for one thing, I don't find it so much "Chinese". Maybe it is designed to give that impression, but it is strongly filtered through Western ears. Musically speaking, I don't like its insistence on that descending major third interval that ends the first phrase and both starts as well as ends the second phrase. There is something in it that I find silly.   

 

 

Quote

The first appearance of the theme (and the character it was written for). Always makes me smile...

 

 

 

The actor is very good, of course, and I think he did well for that role. However, my objection is to the inclusion of a character of that kind in an Indiana Jones movie, so it is directed to Spielberg's choice. I don't find it convincing. It's ok to have children (or childish) characters, but not to assign them major roles in solving the main problems that the "good" characters have to face.

 

To me, it makes a similar effect to that produced by the Ewoks in ROTJ: you go from the scene of the very dramatic conflict between Luke, the Emperor and Darth Vader, to the scene where the Rebel Fleet is about to be destroyed (which is in tone with the previous one)... to the scene on Endor, where the teddy bears destroy the shield (as well as a legion of the Emperor's "best troops") and basically solve the whole thing. This, in my opinion, represents a huge loss of credibility and seriousness for the finale of the original saga. I would call it a tonal inconsistency.

 

Analogously, in Temple of Doom I don't like the idea that Indy goes into the temple of some guys who enjoy stripping pulsating hearts of other people in their free time, and carries a child with him, who has a major role in solving the situation. From this point of view, I find the character of Mutt in KOTCS much more credible, just because it is more believable that a character of that age took part in such an adventure (I'm not talking about the... details of the adventure itself!). I hope I have made my point clearer.

 

 

 

[EDITED to correct an erroneous statement]

 

 

 

[Holko 9,520]

Short Round doesn't smile from Amscray till Indy's back and they're escaping, he's also terrified, beaten and enslaved. Look at him during "Indy, I love you!", the poor thing's about to cry but still willing to hurt his best friend for the slight chance of bringing him back.

[Score 770]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

Short Round doesn't smile from Amscray till Indy's back and they're escaping, he's also terrified, beaten and enslaved. Look at him during "Indy, I love you!", the poor thing's about to cry but still willing to hurt his best friend for the slight chance of bringing him back.

 

Ok, I don't remember everything from that movie but my main point is not the amount of smiling, but that such a character is out of tune with the rest of the movie (for me).

 

I really realize I've lost a good occasion for the unpopular opinions thread...

[Holko 9,520]

Sure, the point wasn't the amount of smiling, but first you made it sound like Shorty turned every shot he was in into silly kiddy stuff, while he is in fact very much affected by the gravity of their situation.

[Score 770]

3 minutes ago, Holko said:

Sure, the point wasn't the amount of smiling, but first you made it sound like Shorty turned every shot he was in into silly kiddy stuff, while he is in fact very much affected by the gravity of their situation.

 

I've edited my first post to prevent this interpretation!

[Datameister 2,042]

3 hours ago, Holko said:

What the hell is wrong with Anakin Defeats Sebulba?

 

It just...somehow doesn't sound like a cue for a podrace to me. The partially unused latter half of "The Race Begins" comes a lot closer. The way "Anakin Defeats Sebulba" is used in the film is just so perfect, particularly when the energy balls start bouncing around, and when Jar Jar starts swinging around on the gun turret. (Not judging the film itself here...just how well the tracked score fits.) Frankly, other than the aforementioned statement of Anakin's theme, I'm still stunned that it wasn't written for that scene.

[Josh500 1,615]

Surely the silliest thing in Temple of Doom isn't Short Round! It might be the Thuggee Cult, the comical cartoon Indians, the crazy temple, the monkey brain dessert, the crazy roller-coaster deep underground etc.

 

And surely the most annoying thing in Temple of Doom isn't Short Round, but Willie and her constant screaming! 

 

My two cents. 😂 

[Holko 9,520]

7 minutes ago, Datameister said:

It just...somehow doesn't sound like a cue for a podrace to me.

 

Yeah, but at that point it isn't about the race anymore, just the 1v1 tussle, which one of them will make it to the finish line at all.

[Score 770]

20 minutes ago, Josh500 said:

Surely the silliest thing in Temple of Doom isn't Short Round! It might be the Thuggee Cult, the comical cartoon Indians, the crazy temple, the monkey brain dessert, the crazy roller-coaster deep underground etc.

 

And surely the most annoying thing in Temple of Doom isn't Short Round, but Willie and her constant screaming! 

 

My two cents. 😂 

 

Of course there are plenty of silly things there, but the starting point was the music cue for Short Round, then the discussion derailed towards the movie!

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,065]

3 hours ago, Josh500 said:

And surely the most annoying thing in Temple of Doom isn't Short Round, but Willie and her constant screaming! 

 

Without a doubt.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

7 hours ago, Holko said:

Vicotry celebration does work much better than Ewok Celebration. 

But what about the yub nubs?

[Holko 9,520]

It's a cue we cannot afford to lose, but is pretty anticlimactic and silly as a finisher.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

When the choir backs the Ewoks in the last reprise 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

1 hour ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

When the choir backs the Ewoks in the last reprise 

CELEBRATE THE LOOOOO-OOOVE!!!

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

I judge a person's worth by how much they love Short Round. 

[Jay 37,351]

pumpkin seed latte stevia?

[Demodex 557]

I haven't read this whole thread but my biggest disappointment in Williams is that the Luke and Leia theme doesn't appear anywhere in Revenge of the Sith. 

 

[crumbs 14,306]

2 hours ago, Demodex said:

I haven't read this whole thread but my biggest disappointment in Williams is that the Luke and Leia theme doesn't appear anywhere in Revenge of the Sith.

 

Hadn't occurred to me! There were definitely a few places he could've used it, such as towards the end when they discuss what to do with the twins. I completely understand why he preferred a suite of Leia's/Luke's/Force Theme for the final two scenes though, considering the structure of the finale.

 

And, in hindsight, having the theme come back for TLJ after being dormant for 35 years made that moment even more heartbreaking and special.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,356]

22 minutes ago, crumbs said:

And, in hindsight, having the theme come back for TLJ about being dormant for 35 years made that moment even more heartbreaking and special.

Exactly.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

Luke and Leia has a sort of emotional maturity to it, whereas Leia’s theme has this youthful optimism. The former would not have worked for the concluding scenes of ROTS but was perfect for its appearance in TLJ. I think Williams’ decisions were the right ones, and I’m grateful the sequel films allowed him this one sublime opportunity to bring closure to that theme, what could be my favorite moment in all Star Wars, centainly the most emotionally resonant. 

[Datameister 2,042]

5 hours ago, Holko said:

It's a cue we cannot afford to lose, but is pretty anticlimactic and silly as a finisher.

 

My thoughts exactly. It's a fun listen on its own, but I can't take it seriously as a conclusion to the original trilogy.

 

Oh! I totally forgot a big one...the dianoga cue from ANH! Absolutely LOVE the cue...absolutely HATE how it would have worked in the film. The scene would have felt soooo much sillier. (Oddly enough, I do think it works well in the SE's expanded Mos Eisley sequence...I have mixed feelings about those additions, certainly, but the score certainly fits nicely with them.)

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Because Star Wars should never be silly.

[Datameister 2,042]

Because that's totally what I said.

 

Of course Star Wars is always going to have a degree of silliness. Anyone who takes it super seriously on the whole is missing the point, IMO. But tonally, that particular scene feels more like "Oh man, there's a creepy unseen monster that's attempting to drown the hero in scummy dumpster water", not "Haha, look at the silly antics Luke and his friends are getting into."

 

But maybe I'm just being...silly.

[crumbs 14,306]

Another couple I thought of in the car to work this morning! 

• The weird music Williams wrote at the end of Yoda's Death to underscore Obi-Wan's reappearance on Dagobah (which was dialled out) 
• The cue he wrote to underscore Jabba's reveal after Han Solo is reawakened in ROTJ, far too goofy for the moment IMO (which was also dialled out) 
• The original opening to Return of the Jedi. The memorable opening to the revised version of that track is vastly superior.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

Because that's totally what I said.

 

Of course Star Wars is always going to have a degree of silliness. Anyone who takes it super seriously on the whole is missing the point, IMO. But tonally, that particular scene feels more like "Oh man, there's a creepy unseen monster that's attempting to drown the hero in scummy dumpster water", not "Haha, look at the silly antics Luke and his friends are getting into."

 

But maybe I'm just being...silly.

[mrbellamy 6,278]

On 9/23/2018 at 7:54 PM, Datameister said:

I'll take major flak for this, but I think "Ewok Celebration" is a total miss, and I greatly prefer the new "Victory Celebration" that Williams wrote all those years later. One of the few good things to come from the SEs. Donning my flame-retardant suit now...

 

 

I like them both for different reasons. "Yub Nub" isn't really a scoring choice, per se, the point is that it's just background source music to a largely unscored scene (until the final orchestral/choral swells join in.) Feels a little more intimate just seeing everybody reunite and celebrate, with no extra commentary from Williams.

 

But I appreciate "Victory Celebration" as the more fully non-diegetic emotional release you expect from a Star Wars finale, and it gets across the right combination of joyfulness and melancholy that you want to feel at the end of the OT. I kinda prefer being spoonfed when it comes to SW.

[TownerFan 4,983]

It's very rare that JW doesn't get a scene right musically, as imho he has some of the strongest dramatic instincts any film composer ever had. However, it's certainly true that sometimes he went too far in terms of enhancing certain aspects of a scene. Some of the example already made are true (especially the dialed out music from TESB or Indy).

 

One example that comes to my mind is the scene in A.I. where Monica arguments with his husband after they met with David, which is scored with sentimental strings that go a tad too far when coupled with Frances O'Connor's acting.

[Josh500 1,615]

3 hours ago, TownerFan said:

One example that comes to my mind is the scene in A.I. where Monica arguments with his husband after they met with David, which is scored with sentimental strings that go a tad too far when coupled with Frances O'Connor's acting.

 

You mean the cue "David's Arrival"? Speak for yourself! You're probably the only one who thinks so. 

 

This scene is scored perfectly, and like I've mentioned many times, this piece is one of my all-time favourites.

[crumbs 14,306]

I'd need to re-watch that scene to gauge my opinion but, from the last time I watched that film, not a single cue stuck out to me as being the wrong choice.

 

I consider A.I. a masterwork, probably his most recent.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

I consider A.I. a masterwork, probably his most recent.

 

 

15 hours ago, Datameister said:

Because that's totally what I said.

 

Of course Star Wars is always going to have a degree of silliness. Anyone who takes it super seriously on the whole is missing the point, IMO. But tonally, that particular scene feels more like "Oh man, there's a creepy unseen monster that's attempting to drown the hero in scummy dumpster water", not "Haha, look at the silly antics Luke and his friends are getting into."

 

But maybe I'm just being...silly.

 

 

I don't know how the cue lines up in the film, but I find it interesting you call it silly...while it's definitely exaggerated with all of those trilling woodwinds, I find the tone to be ominous with a great feeling of the characters getting in something way over their heads, further building all the way through to the end of the trash compactor sequence. Too much, probably, but not a tonal misfire. If anything, I would say the music would have slowed the pacing of the film down too much, drawing the scene in its own "shell", so to speak.

 

 

On a general note--and I apologize if this has been stated before--it's important to note with a good number of the cues listed in this thread, and elsewhere for other film composers, that before a single note was written, the director and composer could have very well agreed that the scene in question could be better with no music, but want something covered just in case-as George Lucas said once, "useable, or loseable." Or,  the director could have an attitude of--and I've experienced this personally--"I don't exactly know what I want here, could you just come up with something? We'll go from there." 

 

Personally, I find it incredible that composers such as John Williams can write such captivating, full-grown music with that angle of experimentation in the short time frame they have.

[1977 1,743]

22 hours ago, Demodex said:

I haven't read this whole thread but my biggest disappointment in Williams is that the Luke and Leia theme doesn't appear anywhere in Revenge of the Sith. 

 

 

To me that theme is meant to represent their relationship and the shared realisation that they are brother and sister, rather than merely the fact that they are siblings (if that makes any sense).

[Demodex 557]

Yeah, it makes total sense. I guess if there was no sequel trilogy I'd feel more strongly about this, but after TLJ I do see this was a good choice. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

I suppose we could have been treated a sliver of that theme in the end-credits suite rather than a "Throne Room" retread and re-retread.

[Fabulin 3,511]

.

[crumbs 14,306]

Interesting... I've always considered Rey's musical introduction basically flawless. The only negative is JJ's shitty sound mix which totally buries the opening statement of Rey's primary melody (which, as it stands, is pretty low in the score's mix). 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

Rey's Theme > Yoda's Theme

 

 

[SteveMc 2,674]

Is that an unpopular opinion?  I may just be inclined to agree.

[Josh500 1,615]

I was never that crazy about Rey's Theme. But then, neither was I crazy about Yoda's Theme. 

 

They're both okay, but seriously, there are tons of better themes in the Star Wars saga.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

Chicken in the Pot, for example!