Has the score to Gladiator aged well?

[KK 3,307]

1 hour ago, Quintus said:

All this talk of masterpieces... so what are the best three cues on Da Vinci Code? I wanna check 'em out.

 

 

 

 

 

"Chevaliers de Sangreal" is the obvious popular Zimmer highlight, the "Time" of this film, if you will, but these better represent the more subdued elegance of the score. Outside of maybe The Thin Red Line, it's the closest Zimmer ever got to a liturgical tone poem. Some of his finest writing. Also one of the best examples for Zimmer's ear for colour, which never really gets its due credit.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

3 hours ago, Edmilson said:

My favorite Zimmer scores were released from 1998 to 2007: Prince of Egypt, The Thin Red Line, Gladiator, Pearl Harbor,.....

I love alot of those scores but...

 

.

PEARL HARBOR?!😉

[Jurassic Shark 12,073]

Probably just a typo.

[Quintus 5,399]

Hey guys I listened to all of the samples, and well I'm just completely indifferent to them, the most popular (apparently) Da Vinci Code cue of them all included. I'm honestly at a bit of a loss as to why this score is seemingly so highly rated by you guys - especially given that the film itself is hardly an enormously beloved one which people have watched over and over again... or have they? See, my admittedly very single-minded understanding of and approach to quality film music (and any scoring in various different mediums) is based almost entirely on familiarity with the films themselves - a love of the soundtrack developing naturally over time, as I rewatch and build my appreciation of the entire audiovisual experience. But you guys seem to love this Da Vinci Code score based purely on its album/s presentation, which I'll just say I don't really understand (based on the IMO unremarkable cues I listened to above). Or is there more to it than that?

 

Did you guys really just simply purchase the CD and then listen the hell out of it, or was there perhaps a different angle as to why you all came to love it it? Say for instance, watching the movie many more times than you care to admit to? Musical appreciation born of passive familiarity, as it were. The timeworn and original way of getting into film scores...

[Richard Penna 3,687]

I've never seen the film. My appreciation of the score is nothing more than hearing the album and really liking it. Not sure what else I can say.

[Quintus 5,399]

Fair enough. 

 

I'm generally a Hans Zimmer fan, but I don't think his Da Vinci Code is anything special, and certainly nothing out of the ordinary. It doesn't standout in the way, say, Interstellar does. Or indeed, Gladiator.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Angels & Demons is also good, although a bit too much generic material for my liking in a few sections such as 'Fire' and 'Immolation'. It does however, have the astounding Science & Religion, which scores a scene that could have gone completely the other way, but doesn't:

 

 

 

I also enjoy a lot of Interstellar, but it can get a bit repetitive in complete form.

 

My favourite bit from Da Vinci Code has always been this: (particularly the choral bit from 6:17)

 

 

I also love the theme from here (ending with the soprano):

 

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I fell asleep during that one.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

A fine film score has to be stored at precisely the right temperature, in a dark climate controlled cellar. That will ensure it ages well.

 

Just ask any Carsini!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Zimmer actually cares about presenting his music in a we'll crafted fashion.

Like Morricone, he 3schews CDs with lots of 35 second cues and layers his cues in a seamless manner.

Wish more composers w9uld do that( they might even sell a few😉)

[Romão 2,274]

Great selections from The Da Vinci Code, KK and Richard Penna 

9 hours ago, KK said:

 

 

 

 

 

"Chevaliers de Sangreal" is the obvious popular Zimmer highlight, the "Time" of this film, if you will, but these better represent the more subdued elegance of the score. Outside of maybe The Thin Red Line, it's the closest Zimmer ever got to a liturgical tone poem. Some of his finest writing. Also one of the best examples for Zimmer's ear for colour, which never really gets its due credit.

 

Very much so. The other score where he also acomplishes this (although not as sucessfully as in The Da Vinci Code), is Hannibal. And I actually love how Hopkins' narration is blended in some tracks, works wonderfully. Like this, for example:

 

 

[KK 3,307]

8 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Angels & Demons is also good, although a bit too much generic material for my liking in a few sections such as 'Fire' and 'Immolation'. It does however, have the astounding Science & Religion, which scores a scene that could have gone completely the other way, but doesn't:

 

 

Angels & Demons is basically the punk rock cover of The Da Vinci Code. It's an absolute riot! But the original is just special.

 

8 hours ago, Quintus said:

Did you guys really just simply purchase the CD and then listen the hell out of it, or was there perhaps a different angle as to why you all came to love it it? Say for instance, watching the movie many more times than you care to admit to? Musical appreciation born of passive familiarity, as it were. The timeworn and original way of getting into film scores...

 

Well, I'm not ashamed to admit that The Da Vinci Code was actually the first film score CD I've ever purchased (Gladiator was my second). In fact, "Chevaliers de Sangreal" is responsible for getting me seriously into film music in the first place. And it had nothing to do with the film (which I absolutely loathe). I just somehow stumbled onto the track on Youtube, had my first scoregasm, and promptly sought out more. 

 

In hindsight, much of the appeal probably has to do with the musical language and what I was drawn to then. I was new to the basic aural pleasure of Zimmer ostinati (which are in peak form with "Chevaliers"), so naturally that was a big draw for me as a kid. But with the rest of the score: the large amount of choral work (shrieking chorus to operatic solos), the modal chant-like quality of the melodies, the air of intrigue and mystery through all of it (for someone who made his name off of transparent rousing power anthems...he actually rarely lets this score lean into simple emotions...its always "wonder" tinged with a bittersweet blend of something else...)...all qualities I was a sucker for at the time. Many of the same qualities that would make me obsess over Shore's LOTR shortly after (even though I was already subconsciously in love with those via the films).

 

Today, I remain fond of it because of nostalgia, yes. But I also think it remains one of the last proper dramatic blueprints I've heard Zimmer conjure. From it's core Vaughan Williams-esque ideas, to the recording...it's musical world-building, a lost form these days. And it's also a Zimmer that trusts silence, space and "subtlety" (or as subtle as Zimmer gets)...of a caliber and "sophistication" I've never heard him come back to since. Interstellar is quite nice and all, but it is mostly a handful of solid ideas, informed by the sequence of the film, than having any real arc on its own.

 

I definitely get what you mean about how Zimmer's best benefits (like many great film composers) from some fantastic cinematic moments. But honestly, this one has always been about the music for me.

 

 

4 hours ago, Romão said:

Great selections from The Da Vinci Code, KK and Richard Penna 

 

Very much so. The other score where he also acomplishes this (although not as sucessfully as in The Da Vinci Code), is Hannibal. And I actually love how Hopkins' narration is blended in some tracks, works wonderfully. Like this, for example:

 

 

 

Amen. I always remember how much people hated the Hopkins in the album, but it's become a quintessential part of the music for me.

[publicist 4,643]

Without following this thread: yes, Da Vinci is miles better than Gladiator and not just because it's no patchy collection of unrelated pop cues. Of course the latter was more of a (bad) landmark in the way film music was requested to be after it became a massive hit, but its inherent shallowness (see also: King Arthur) cemented the musical downward spiral of blockbuster scores in the years after. That Kingdom of Heaven (infinitely better music) came out so well is a small miracle.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

You mean the Titanic-effect?

[publicist 4,643]

No, Titanic had, by and large, a traditional score, albeit with pop influences. Gladiator certainly didn't introduce the world music angle to film scores, but the combination of large narrative historical epic with this kind of deliberate pop approach without much of a narrative thread broke a spell. Now producers could have their wannabe-classical pastiches together with testosterone rock action pieces and world music laments and since all could exist side by side and nobody expected the composers to bridge them, a lot of old rules were broken down. It's why i never wanted Zimmer on stuff like that. 

[Richard Penna 3,687]

I don't get the 'pop approach' way of describing scores like Gladiator. Some may take issue with how synthy and derivative the battle music is, but the only 'pop' element I hear is Now We Are Free, which is the one element that doesn't mesh with the rest of the score for me.

[publicist 4,643]

'Pop' as in popular music, also as in dumbed-down classical. Cues like Earth, To Zuccabar, The General who became a Slave (a film cue that was only released with the second edition), Duduk of the North (the same, though i don't know if it was actually used), and several others, are examples of singular numbers with at best tangential connection to the rest. 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, publicist said:

No, Titanic had, by and large, a traditional score, albeit with pop influences. Gladiator certainly didn't introduce the world music angle to film scores, but the combination of large narrative historical epic with this kind of deliberate pop approach without much of a narrative thread broke a spell. Now producers could have their wannabe-classical pastiches together with testosterone rock action pieces and world music laments and since all could exist side by side and nobody expected the composers to bridge them, a lot of old rules were broken down. It's why i never wanted Zimmer on stuff like that. 

I absolutely agree with you. I'm always very sceptical, when Zimmer is scoring a film set in ancient times, cause I know the score is still gonna sound like it has nothing to do with the setting.

[publicist 4,643]

I guess that goes for a lot of classic Hollywood scores as well (Rózsas magisterial efforts notwithstanding), but dramatically they were sound. Zimmer & Co. made scores a grab box of styles and of course, mostly styles that developed in the 80's.

[Quintus 5,399]

28 minutes ago, publicist said:

'Pop' as in popular music, also as in dumbed-down classical. Cues like Earth, To Zuccabar, The General who became a Slave (a film cue that was only released with the second edition), Duduk of the North (the same, though i don't know if it was actually used), and several others, are examples of singular numbers with at best tangential connection to the rest. 

 

I enjoyed those cues. Dumbed down classical has its place, and besides; only film music snobs (like you and I) ever make the distinction between refined scoring and pop scoring. To everyone else, or "normies", it's all movie music.

[publicist 4,643]

No question about that, my point was that dumbed-down and pop-ish became the norm. Away with Goldenthal-ian complexities that for a short time before that were still accepted and Gladiator was the beginning of the end for that.

[Quintus 5,399]

Certainly the beginning of the end for popcorn movie music worth listening to.

[Richard Penna 3,687]

1 hour ago, publicist said:

'Pop' as in popular music, also as in dumbed-down classical. Cues like Earth, To Zuccabar, The General who became a Slave (a film cue that was only released with the second edition), Duduk of the North (the same, though i don't know if it was actually used), and several others, are examples of singular numbers with at best tangential connection to the rest. 

 

Ah, you mean that those particular cues don't really relate much to the rest of the score. Fair comment, but I don't see how that makes them 'pop' cues.

 

I'm actually not a fan of the album version of To Zucchabar - either it was composed for a different scene/cut, or it's one of Zimmer's pretentious 'you don't need to hear the real film cue... here's some poetic rambling I wrote instead'.

 

Gladiator remains one of my top Zimmer scores - it's mainly competing with The Thin Red Line, which is one of the best concept albums I've ever heard, and I've never seen the film.

 

Having skimmed through a few bits of Da Vinci Code again, Zimmer is without doubt a master of creating listening experiences, provided that you don't give a crap about what has been left off. The moment you watch the film and notice all the missing music, all that falls apart.

 

As for Inferno. Oh Dear. Astoundingly bad film and I didn't notice the score at all - not once - in the entire film. Completely forgettable. Which is a shame, as I like Angels & Demons, both film and score.

[publicist 4,643]

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Ah, you mean that those particular cues don't really relate much to the rest of the score. Fair comment, but I don't see how that makes them 'pop' cues.

 

The way it is conceived, jammed and recorded. I don't say it's pop songs but pop-ish in its idiom, especially with the prominent/attractive solos and rhythmic accompaniment. Apart from a handful of scores by Vangelis or Gabriel's Temptation of Christ stuff like that didn't really exist prior to Gladiator.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Complaints about scores not " being true to the historical setting" or " anachronistic" are typically made by folks who don't have a clue#

 

 

 

"I never understood the acclaim for Morricones OUTIW or GBU.

There were no Stratocaster electric guitars in the Old West."

!😠

[Richard Penna 3,687]

Meh, it allows detractors to criticise a score when it suits them (i.e. they don't like a score). When it's a more revered score, or a composer they like, suddenly those concerns disappear.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

There are no electric guitars on Coruscant!

[gkgyver 1,645]

On 7/25/2020 at 5:34 PM, Quintus said:

All this talk of masterpieces... so what are the best three cues on Da Vinci Code? I wanna check 'em out.

 

It's not a masterpiece by a long shot, but a very good score that touches on the subject with something resembling taste, and Chevaliers De Sangreal is quite rousing. 

[Quintus 5,399]

I heard a lot of what sounded like synthesized choral sampling. It wasn't grossly offensive or anything like that, but I am spoiled by Howard Shore and The London Voices, so when I can't help but compare the choral work in Da Vinci with someone like Lord of the Rings, I'm afraid it's not great for the former.

[gkgyver 1,645]

It's one of those rare scores where the film meets Zimmer's usual style halfway, and the score profits from it, opposed to something like Man Of Steel, which is grossly, obscenely out of context. 

Zimmer's use of solo/smaller string sections in the film is surprisingly addicting, I think of the final scene with Sophie being revealed as the descendant of Jesus, for example. The fake sounding brass is generally kept to a minimum, the droning bass isn't too bad, and sometimes functions as a stark contrast to the smaller themes. 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

2 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Meh, it allows detractors to criticise a score when it suits them (i.e. they don't like a score). When it's a more revered score, or a composer they like, suddenly those concerns disappear.

You mean like.....SPARTACUS?

[Richard Penna 3,687]

I have no idea whether you're being humorous or not, as I've never seen the film or heard the score 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

12 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I have no idea whether you're being humorous or not, as I've never seen the film or heard the score 

Neither has Shark or Gruzome or Fart....

[Jurassic Shark 12,073]

On 9/23/2018 at 3:09 PM, PuhgreÞiviÞm said:

A few years ago when this movie came out, it obviously sparked a trend where other similar or even unrelated films went crazy with wailing lady music.

 

That trend started already four years earlier with The English Patient.

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

15 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

 

That trend started already four years earlier with The English Patient.

 

 

 

But did that kickstart a "trend"? Did anyone do it just because it proved popular in TEP? Or was everyone else out to capitalise on Gladiator's use of it?

[Jurassic Shark 12,073]

Basically everybody saw TEP, probably even HanZ, so I'm sure it had at least some influence.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

But everyone hates The English Patient and they went to see Sack Lunch instead!

[Thor 7,503]

22 hours ago, PuhgreÞiviÞm said:

 

But did that kickstart a "trend"? Did anyone do it just because it proved popular in TEP? Or was everyone else out to capitalise on Gladiator's use of it?

 

Obviously GLADIATOR didn't INVENT the wailing woman. Mychael Danna employed this technique too, back in his early days. And Lisa Gerrard herself, obviously. But it was GLADIATOR that popularized it into a trope.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

POWAQAATSI featured Middle - Eastern ' wailing'.

[Jurassic Shark 12,073]

Indeed.

[Thor 7,503]

Yes, and many others - especially if you move outside film music into the realms of world music or indigenous music styles. Again, GLADIATOR was not the first; just paradigm-shifting for a western film audience. 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

BLADE RUNNER

 

 

 

[KK 3,307]

The Last Temptation of the Christ is pretty much the "world music" prototype for Gladiator anyway. It's just that the latter really pushed the sound into mainstream Hollywood.

[artguy360 1,843]

1 hour ago, KK said:

The Last Temptation of the Christ is pretty much the "world music" prototype for Gladiator anyway. It's just that the latter really pushed the sound into mainstream Hollywood.

True, but The Last Temptation of Christ score sounds much more experimental and sparse while Gladiator sounds epic and designed for mainstream appeal.

[KK 3,307]

Yea, like any thoughtful experiment that transitions into the mainstream, it gets repackaged according to popular tastes.

[publicist 4,643]

Lest we forget The Insider, a Russell Crowe movie, that obviously *trended* with filmmakers.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

No to the film. No to the score.