Star Wars: Andor (2022) - released episode spoilers allowed

[DarthDementous 1,059]

3 hours ago, JTWfan77 said:

I'm happy a lot of people are enjoying this. I'm just a bit sad that I'm not one of them as I was really looking forward to this show.

 

Do we think S2 will follow the same tack or will they strike out in a new direction? I'm guessing the former.

Things are going to be pretty different given they’ll be covering 4 years instead of 1 year

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Sort of but in many ways it will be quite similar.  Gilroy confirmed that it will retain the 3 episode arc structure and he said that each 3 episode arc will tell a story in one concentrated time period.  So essentially the main difference is that there will be a big time jump between each arc.

[Tallguy 3,379]

Tatooine. The next season will certainly have Tatooine.

[1977 1,743]

10 hours ago, crocodile said:

Do you think you will still finish it @JTWfan77?

 

Karol

 

I watched up to where Andor got arrested on the coastal planet and then I gave up.

 

My wife kept watching so I saw bits and pieces and then saw the whole of Ep 12 last night.

 

I was expecting a lot more based on all the raves.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

The comments I read most about this series go along the lines of  "It's Star Wars for non-Geeks!" or "It's Star Wars for people who don't like Star Wars!", the appeal of which I admit escapes me. 

 

It's like saying, "It's pizza for people who don't like pizza!".  l mean, if I don't feel like pizza, I'll order something else. It will almost certainly taste better than pizza trying to taste like something else.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

11 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

The comments I read most about this series go along the lines of  "It's Star Wars for non-Geeks!" or "It's Star Wars for people who don't like Star Wars!", the appeal of which I admit escapes me. 

 

It's like saying, "It's pizza for people who don't like pizza!".  l mean, if I don't feel like pizza, I'll order something else. It will almost certainly taste better than pizza trying to taste like something else.

The pizza analogy actually has promise. Andor is like a pineapple pizza, you've got a group of people who will tell you that it's not 'real pizza' and then when you ask what real pizza is they'll say that it can only be bread, meat and cheese and yet despite all these rules, pineapple pizza is still delicious 

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

8 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

The pizza analogy actually has promise. Andor is like a pineapple pizza, you've got a group of people who will tell you that it's not 'real pizza' and then when you ask what real pizza is they'll say that it can only be bread, meat and cheese and yet despite all these rules, pineapple pizza is still delicious 

 

Ha ha. Well argued!

[Chen G. 3,944]

1 hour ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

mean, if I don't feel like pizza, I'll order something else.

 

Make. Make something else!

 

Anyhow, I do think Andor can be a little meandering, a little fragmented. And its wild to watch something which is a spinoff of a spinoff to a prequel. Its certainly the most science-fiction that Star Wars had ever been: almost as if someone put a little THX into it.

 

But, having said all of that, I think its very well-made, very fresh, and - at its best - packs a decent wallop.

[Nick1Ø66 4,689]

 

21 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its certainly the most science-fiction that Star Wars had ever been

 

Well, probably not hard to do, Star Wars isn't science fiction. It's fantasy with spaceships & laser swords.

[Chen G. 3,944]

38 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Star Wars isn't science fiction. It's fantasy with spaceships & laser swords.

 

I know. But Andor is science-fiction.

 

There are no fantasy elements in it whatsoever: no Force, no Jedi/Sith, and no Medievalisms to speak of except maybe some fluttering capes.

[Gabriel Bezerra 300]

2 hours ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

The comments I read most about this series go along the lines of  "It's Star Wars for non-Geeks!" or "It's Star Wars for people who don't like Star Wars!", the appeal of which I admit escapes me. 

I find this argument very... odd. I'm rewatching Rebels, another series that split the fans for the polar opposite reasons Andor did it. and I think both show, as different as they are, fit very well close to each other, and share similar themes, in many ways Andor improves the show by offering a new perspective. So it's definetely for people who like Star Wars. It's also a standalone piece of the universe and great TV, so I might get that someone who hasn't watched SW can find enjoyment in it, and that's what the argument is referring to.

[Tallguy 3,379]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

 

I know. But Andor is science-fiction.

 

There are no fantasy elements in it whatsoever: no Force, no Jedi/Sith, and no Medievalisms to speak of except maybe some fluttering capes.

 

I'll open with the fact that I hate "Star Wars isn't science fiction" as an argument. It's Lucas being lazy. If someone wants to complain about something in Star Wars he can just chuckle and say "Well, it's not science fiction, you know."

 

Is the entirety of the argument that it has the Force? I mean, even in Star Wars (pre-midichlorian) the Force was described in scientific rather than religious or fantastical terms. It's not divine or magical. It's just what happens when you have a lot of life forms.

 

But on the flip side (and possibly the flip flip side) Andor has lots of "fantastical" elements that hard sci-fi doesn't as well. It has faster than light travel that is so easy and cheap that even ships sitting in junk yards, the Star Wars equivalent of a '52 Studebaker, have it. We have artificial gravity. In other words, most of the production / story streamlining tropes of science fiction in a visual medium.

 

So what makes Andor sci-fi and Star Wars not? If it's just the Force then there is a lot of apparently now former sci-fi that has telepathy or telekinesis or premonition that has to go out the window. (Looking at you, Dune. Coming for you next Foundation.)

[Bespin 8,480]

Star Wars is indeed not about science-fiction, it's about the thinking "If you want, you can". But of course, it involves The Force, this invisible power that will make this dice turn to a 6 if you want too. In our world, it could be a mixture of luck and goodwill.

 

Tell me, at least, at one point in the Andor series, an event, no matter which one, will be attributable to The Force, but in a way a bit more precise than just luck.

[Chen G. 3,944]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

I'll open with the fact that I hate "Star Wars isn't science fiction" as an argument. It's Lucas being lazy. If someone wants to complain about something in Star Wars he can just chuckle and say "Well, it's not science fiction, you know."

 

Just because something is fantasy doesn't make it beyond reproach: it just a statement about its genre. Star Wars is part of a well-established genre called space fantasy that goes back to Edgar Rice Burroughs. It inevitably has some trappings of science fiction - spaceships, interplanetary travel, aliens, etc.. - but also a lot of the trappings of a fantasy story: in particular, a lot of thinly-disguised Medivalisms: swords, capes, quasi-chivalric orders and quasi-feudal social structures, supernatural powers, heroic quests, etc...

 

Andor may be soft science fiction, but its still science fiction.

[Datameister 2,037]

1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

 

I'll open with the fact that I hate "Star Wars isn't science fiction" as an argument. It's Lucas being lazy. If someone wants to complain about something in Star Wars he can just chuckle and say "Well, it's not science fiction, you know."

 

Is the entirety of the argument that it has the Force? I mean, even in Star Wars (pre-midichlorian) the Force was described in scientific rather than religious or fantastical terms. It's not divine or magical. It's just what happens when you have a lot of life forms.

 

But on the flip side (and possibly the flip flip side) Andor has lots of "fantastical" elements that hard sci-fi doesn't as well. It has faster than light travel that is so easy and cheap that even ships sitting in junk yards, the Star Wars equivalent of a '52 Studebaker, have it. We have artificial gravity. In other words, most of the production / story streamlining tropes of science fiction in a visual medium.

 

So what makes Andor sci-fi and Star Wars not? If it's just the Force then there is a lot of apparently now former sci-fi that has telepathy or telekinesis or premonition that has to go out the window. (Looking at you, Dune. Coming for you next Foundation.)

 

The "not sci-fi" argument doesn't excuse everything; it just excuses the consciously unscientific stuff you're talking about.

 

There's no easy or objective way to determine whether a work is science fiction, science fantasy, hard sci-fi, soft sci-fi, space opera, etc. The borders and overlaps between genres are loose and subject to debate. Personally, I'd say that the original Star Wars is very much science fantasy. You could easily tell the same story in a traditional fantasy setting, and the opening "A long time ago …" tries to set up a fantasy mindset from the start. For me it also sits on the far outskirts—Outer Rim?—of soft sci-fi. Later films feel a little less science fantasy and a little more soft sci-fi. But it's still just a soft sci-fi veneer. There's nothing sci-fi about the stories.

 

Andor is interesting. It doesn't really feel like science fantasy at all, but it's certainly not hard sci-fi for the reasons you describe. I'd describe it more as a political thriller in a soft sci-fi setting. Its themes don't feel at all sci-fi to me. If Star Wars could easily fit in a fantasy setting, Andor could easily fit in a contemporary one.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I take a fairly hard-line view of what science fiction is.  Sci-fi is fundamentally about the human relationship with technology and where it might take us in the future, and how it changes or doesn't change the fundamental nature of being a human.  The technology needs to be more than just an aesthetic or back-drop.

 

But these kind of definitions should never get in the way of just enjoying a story (or not enjoying it).

[Chen G. 3,944]

36 minutes ago, Datameister said:

Later films feel a little less science fantasy and a little more soft sci-fi.

 

I'd agree it varies from entry to entry. Star Wars is perhaps the most fairytale-like (which is not to say I for one minute believe George Lucas' stories about how combed through folk-tales and mythologies and Joseph Campbell, etc...) but the prequel trilogy is also very space-fantasy: the Jedi didn't become a quasi-monastic chivalric order until those films.

 

The sequel trilogy, outside of the Jedi/Sith dichtomoy, is perhaps less fantastical.

[Positivatee 327]

Star Wars is a science fiction universe with a few fantasy elements mixed in. 

 

The stories that George told almost 50 years ago concentrate on a few main characters that are gifted enough to use those fantasy elements. Space wizards. Mind tricks. Hand waving to pull handles and choke people. Force chain lightning. This makes the stories appear to be all fantasy, with just a little science mixed in.

 

But those characters are the exception, not the norm. The majority of characters in the Star Wars universe are normal people either trying to make a living or bring down a fascist regime in a technologically advanced but stagnant civilization.

 

Not everyone in the Empire has Sith powers. Not everyone in the Alliance has Jedi powers. Most people haven't never heard of such abilities or dismiss it as extince, because if there are three things this Republic/Empire is good at, it's suppressing information, spreading disinformation, and making people forget just one generation removed. 

 

If you don't include any of these magic characters, you can tell a story that is just science fiction: the exploration of the human condition in a futuristic setting. 

 

The Andor show is really not that different from discussing the intrigue and subterfuge of 1930s Europe before the war broke out. 

 

[Chen G. 3,944]

5 minutes ago, Positivatee said:

The stories that George told almost 50 years ago concentrate on a few main characters that are gifted enough to use those fantasy elements. Space wizards. Mind tricks. Hand waving to pull handles and choke people. Force chain lightning. This makes the stories appear to be all fantasy, with just a little science mixed in.

 

Two things: one, its more meaningful to the genre who the main characters are and what they go through, then what the setting is; and two, the Force wasn't a hereditary power until 1983 at the earliest, if not until the prequel trilogy.

[Positivatee 327]

Sure. 

[Datameister 2,037]

3 hours ago, Positivatee said:

Star Wars is a science fiction universe with a few fantasy elements mixed in. 

 

The stories that George told almost 50 years ago concentrate on a few main characters that are gifted enough to use those fantasy elements. Space wizards. Mind tricks. Hand waving to pull handles and choke people. Force chain lightning. This makes the stories appear to be all fantasy, with just a little science mixed in.

 

But those characters are the exception, not the norm. The majority of characters in the Star Wars universe are normal people either trying to make a living or bring down a fascist regime in a technologically advanced but stagnant civilization.

 

Not everyone in the Empire has Sith powers. Not everyone in the Alliance has Jedi powers. Most people haven't never heard of such abilities or dismiss it as extince, because if there are three things this Republic/Empire is good at, it's suppressing information, spreading disinformation, and making people forget just one generation removed. 

 

If you don't include any of these magic characters, you can tell a story that is just science fiction: the exploration of the human condition in a futuristic setting. 

 

 

But science fiction—especially hard sci-fi—isn't really about the exploration of the human condition in a futuristic setting. It's about the interaction between the human condition and a (scientifically plausible) futuristic setting. Star Wars intentionally leaves the realm of scientifically plausibility, even when you ignore the Force. And the futuristic setting is just that: a setting. It's not really involved in the central themes and questions.

 

None of that is a criticism of Star Wars; it just has different goals than science fiction generally does.

[Positivatee 327]

Star Wars is a fantasy universe with a minor amount of science fiction elements mixed in. 

 

The stories that George told almost 50 years ago rely almost entirely on main characters that use their fantastic abilities to dominate and intimidate normal people. 

 

Everyone in the galaxy has Force powers because of the midichlorians.

[Tallguy 3,379]

4 minutes ago, Positivatee said:

The stories that George told almost 50 years ago rely almost entirely on main characters that use their fantastic abilities to dominate and intimidate normal people. 

 

Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie, R2, 3PO... In Star Wars Luke uses the Force twice. Once in a practice session.

 

I'm OK with Jedi light Star Wars like Andor because 1) That's how it started and 2) none of my favorite characters were Space Wizards. Including Luke.

 

They lived on other planets, they had cool tech, and they flew spaceships. You know, like in science fiction.

[mstrox 6,647]

I don’t think category really matters here, and adherence to formula or genre in general is a good way to stifle art or limit personal horizons!

[DarthDementous 1,059]

10 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

I take a fairly hard-line view of what science fiction is.  Sci-fi is fundamentally about the human relationship with technology and where it might take us in the future, and how it changes or doesn't change the fundamental nature of being a human.  The technology needs to be more than just an aesthetic or back-drop.

 

But these kind of definitions should never get in the way of just enjoying a story (or not enjoying it).

That’s a good way to think about it, technology is rarely the focus in Star Wars but instead the backdrop. In that respect Andor is no different

[Andy 4,088]

On 26/11/2022 at 11:40 PM, Andy said:

I sort of feel like it was one of the Expanded Universe novels acted out live.  

On 27/11/2022 at 10:19 PM, Not Mr. Big said:

It feels like an adaptation of a SW EU novel, which sounds like a bad thing but works incredibly well onscreen here.  

 

I agree with the first part, but not the second.  Why wasn’t this just a novel?
 

On 28/11/2022 at 3:03 PM, JTWfan77 said:

I'm happy a lot of people are enjoying this. I'm just a bit sad that I'm not one of them.

I feel like the dumbass stick figure in Jay’s cartoon, except my reasons were completely unrepresented in the meme.  
 

And I don’t begrudge anyone for enjoying it, although it is a bit astonishing to me how this wasn’t divisive. Most people seem to love it. 

[greenturnedblue 372]

20 minutes ago, Andy said:

I agree with the first part, but not the second.  Why wasn’t this just a novel?

Disney makes more money on Disney+ subscriptions than they do selling books?

[Datameister 2,037]

2 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

Disney makes more money on Disney+ subscriptions than they do selling books?

 

Sure doesn't feel that way right now, what with the big Bob shakeup …

[dylanskie 104]

Season 1 was slow and boring for me at times, but it mostly paid off, and I think it'll pay off more in the second season. I was impressed with how much thought seems to have gone into this show, and the rest of the Star Wars shows completely pale in comparison to this. There were much less cheesy tropes (which is all that Kenobi really was, and same with The Mandalorian and BOBF, but to a lesser extent ), and everything just felt more plausible.

 

The best parts of the show were the ones that focused on the rebellion and Mon Mothma, who I hope we see much more of in season 2 because Genevieve O'Reilly plays her with such nuance and authenticity that she shone in pretty much every scene she was in. Also, all the worlds the show visited were different enough from other established planets that it felt fresh, but the inclusion of things like the Senate chamber and the various references (which were done with care, like the remark about Canto Bight) made it feel like Star Wars—but the good parts of it.

 

And the score fit beautifully. A JW-esque score with a traditional orchestra would've sounded out of place. Also, I liked how the band in the season finale played one of the themes from the show.

 

I will say that kids probably enjoy traditional SW movies and shows way better than Andor because they're easier to follow and less subtle. I hope Disney makes more SW shows in the realm of Andor where there doesn't have to be 24/7 action (TROS) and they can actually let the characters develop

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

I feel like the Mon Mothma story is the one that dragged the most. They kept showing us the same thing, and repeating the same information. Her position had barely changed by the end of the season.

[Datameister 2,037]

I agree that her subplots really didn't cover that much ground over the course of the season … but I also found them really compelling to watch. Genevieve O'Reilly has truly hit her stride with this character. In ROTS's deleted scenes, she struck me as a rather stilted lookalike. In R1, she got to give a more mature and nuanced performance. Now, in Andor, she totally steals the show with everything she says—and everything she doesn't.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

3 hours ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

I feel like the Mon Mothma story is the one that dragged the most. They kept showing us the same thing, and repeating the same information. Her position had barely changed by the end of the season.

What counts as significant change for you?

 

Because we went from Mon Mothma not willing to get her hands dirty and commit fully to the cause, to selling off her daughter for the greater good

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

19 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

What counts as significant change for you?

 

Because we went from Mon Mothma not willing to get her hands dirty and commit fully to the cause, to selling off her daughter for the greater good

That whole story could have been contained in one episode with some prudent editing. Besides, she was all-in when we met her, whether she realized it fully or not. 

[DarthDementous 1,059]

1 hour ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

That whole story could have been contained in one episode with some prudent editing. Besides, she was all-in when we met her, whether she realized it fully or not. 

Having that entire arc play out in a single episode would’ve been horrific pacing. It’s far more believable that it happens over the course of a season. You’re underplaying it, but someone recognising the kind of person they actually are is a HUGE breakthrough in a character. We see something similar with Andor and even Luthen so it’s definitely a common throughline

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

3 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

Having that entire arc play out in a single episode would’ve been horrific pacing. It’s far more believable that it happens over the course of a season. You’re underplaying it, but someone recognising the kind of person they actually are is a HUGE breakthrough in a character. We see something similar with Andor and even Luthen so it’s definitely a common throughline

Ok then make it two episodes lol. That's a feature length film. If you can't condense such a small amount of plot into that, then you're not a good editor. We don't need to keep going back to her parties and hearing the same conversation over and over.

[DarthDementous 1,059]

1 hour ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

Ok then make it two episodes lol. That's a feature length film. If you can't condense such a small amount of plot into that, then you're not a good editor. We don't need to keep going back to her parties and hearing the same conversation over and over.

Do you just have no idea what kind of show this is? It’s an ensemble show, it’s important to regularly check in to see what each of our main players is up to and progress the plot at the same time. You can’t do that if you dedicate entire episodes to one character’s perspective, that’s not the point of the show. I seriously doubt your ability to judge someone a good or bad editor if you’ve somehow missed how deliberately juxtaposed a lot of

those scenes are and how much meaning you would miss without the intercutting.

[Tallguy 3,379]

7 hours ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

Besides, she was all-in when we met her, whether she realized it fully or not. 

 

The story was her realizing it.

 

I can see people not liking the pacing, or the lack of humor, or maybe even missing a sense of adventure. Those are arguably the biggest departures from past Star Wars. But the two things in this show that are absolutely perfect are the prison arc and everything with Mon Mothma.

 

To me one of the greatest moments of the entire series was when MM meets with the scummy banker and he says "I don't want money, I want your child" and you see her realize that she had no idea the game that she was playing, what would be asked of her, and what she would be willing to do. It was overshadowed by some pretty amazing events in the rest of the episode. (I mean, it had Andy Serkis being astonishing AND Luthen's speech.)

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

I literally loved this show, you guys are jumping down my throat because I criticized one small subplot lol. Sometimes bad editing is just bad editing, there's no need to read a greater meaning into it.

 

[mstrox 6,647]

I had no problems with the editing or pacing of Mothma’s story.

[Tallguy 3,379]

22 minutes ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

I literally loved this show, you guys are jumping down my throat because I criticized one small subplot lol. Sometimes bad editing is just bad editing, there's no need to read a greater meaning into it.

 

 

HOW DARE YOU?!? YOU COULD NOT BEEEEE MORE WRONG! (reads reads reads) Oh. So sorry. All good. Carry on. Andor, wonderful show.

[Sweeping Strings 2,346]

Don't have Disney+ so am not watching, but read something today in which Gilroy said that the inspiration behind a funeral scene in one of the episodes was inspired by 'those epic, mad Provisional IRA funerals there used to be'. 

Erm ... OK then. 

[TBO1711 28]

Where’s Volume. 3?

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

Britell said on his Instagram todat that he just finished mastering the 3rd volume and that the releasedate wil be soon.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cloq7btpGVH/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=

[TBO1711 28]

but it was supposed to be released today

[DarthDementous 1,059]

On 01/12/2022 at 3:57 PM, JohnTheBaptist said:

I literally loved this show, you guys are jumping down my throat because I criticized one small subplot lol. Sometimes bad editing is just bad editing, there's no need to read a greater meaning into it.

 

Whether you ultimately loved the show or not has no bearing on how much I think your criticism is off-base according to the reasoning you presented

 

If you don’t want people ‘jumping down your throat’ then maybe don’t make provocative statements like “If you can't condense such a small amount of plot into that, then you're not a good editor” which implies that the editor(s) of Andor can’t even do the bare minimum of their job

[JohnTheBaptist 57]

Ok, then maybe it was the screenwriter's fault. Either way somebody dropped the ball. 

[greenturnedblue 372]

People complained about having an entire episode about the Mandalorian in the Book of Boba Fett. Imagine the complaints if they made an entire episode of Andor about Mon Mothma of all characters

[DarthDementous 1,059]

2 hours ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

Ok, then maybe it was the screenwriter's fault. Either way somebody dropped the ball. 

I fail to see how they’re at fault for not doing what you suggest which would have negative consequences for the whole story

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

8 hours ago, TBO1711 said:

but it was supposed to be released today

Yes. No idea what happened

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

On 1/12/2022 at 5:19 PM, Sweeping Strings said:

Don't have Disney+ so am not watching, but read something today in which Gilroy said that the inspiration behind a funeral scene in one of the episodes was inspired by 'those epic, mad Provisional IRA funerals there used to be'. 

Erm ... OK then. 

Mmm creepy.