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Star Wars: Andor (2022) - released episode spoilers allowed


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2 hours ago, HunterTech said:

 

Is there even anyone who fully enjoyed TRoS unironically? 


I love TRoS.  I was completely  entertained.  


I’m not sure I’m a metric for popular opinion though, because I’m cold on Rogue One, and there’s been a steady decline in my enjoyment of the television offerings.  (In other words I don’t eat everything they feed me. )

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1 hour ago, HunterTech said:

With TRoS, I've been used to people either merely enjoying the production work put into the film, or finding it so silly it makes it rather entertaining for them. Otherwise, it tends to be a resounding meh at best from a lot of people who has seen it.

 

Me and some schoolmates had this pact that we would finish the saga together in a cinema, come what may. I remember it was a rather cold December night and all of us assembled in a Berlin multiplex being completely in agreement before the movie started that our engagement level was as low as the temperature.

 

The movie was pretty bad, yes, but also weightlessly inoffensive and it rushed by in a breeze. I remember that i was weighing the thought that Disney found a secret tech formula by which they could feed all the silly lore, actor avatars and Williams' music sheets into a computer system, pressed a key and out came The Rise of Skywalker. Then i asked myself what would happen if they shuffled the elements around a little, or changed a certain variable - could they just press the key again and again? Then i watched three episodes of 'Obi Wan' and found my theory validated.

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1 hour ago, HunterTech said:

given the reports of key projects being targeted for mass downvotes

If they aren't bots why does it matter if they're en masse or not?

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Hm. This has taken some interesting turns.

 

I have no idea if this is complete garbage or not. I'm only posting it because I ran across it and it seems like total wish fulfillment for me. If it turns out to be true then so much the better!

 

https://bespinbulletin.com/2022/08/first-reaction-to-andors-first-four-episodes-appears-online-grounded-complex-expect-division/

 

"I’ve seen the first four and it’s the most serious, grounded thing Star Wars has ever done. It feels more like an English-made espionage thriller than Star Wars. It is totally unconcerned with giving you fan service moments, and instead wants to delve into what it’s like for the bit players in this universe to wake up every morning and go about their day. This is not space opera. It’s more space drama. It’s slow, deliberate, complex (for Star Wars) and asks the viewer to do some work. It actually humanizes roles that are traditionally cartoon evil in the SW universe. It’s attempting to tell a grown up story, and I think a lot of fans are going to haaaate it. Both Gilroy’s presence is all over this thing. It’s got that cinema verite vibe that the core Bourne movies had going for them. Puts you in the world like never before. Whether the world can hold up to that level of scrutiny is up for debate, but it is fascinating.”

 

That sounds like a logical progression from Rogue One. Like I said, it's totally what I want to hear so if it's totally made up, I'm primed to fall for it. If it IS totally made up then I want someone to make something like this next!

 

 

1 hour ago, Andy said:

 (In other words I don’t eat everything they feed me. )

 

Hmmm. I wonder if I do?

 

I found Book of Boba to be an entertaining but ultimately unfulfilling journey. But I don't hate the scooter gang. I hate that Boba never gets to be Boba. That episode of Mando that introduced him? Do that.

 

Mando has been very very good.

 

Obi-Wan had some spectacular moments, and almost all of them start with "Leia".

 

I ADORE THE BAD BATCH.

 

Rebels is the best that Star Wars has been since 1980.

 

The last season of the Clone Wars tricked me into watching Revenge of the Sith again. I want to visit the alternate world where Fliloni was Lucas' wing-man when he made the prequels.

 

The Sequel trilogy is an entertaining mess. The Force Awakens is annoyingly watchable. It's a great cast. But none of them are done justice. (Psst. Meryl Streep should have played Leia in The Rise of Skywalker.)

 

Am I eating everything they feed me?

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Na you just like what you like. You’re enjoying them yet critiquing flaws. 
 

From your description you posted, Andor wasn’t made for me.  If I wanted that granular level of espionage, I’d read one of the hundreds of Star Wars novels out there. Gil Roy should’ve just written one of those, because this sounds dreadfully boring. 
 

And of course I’ll watch it, but I am really missing the days of expensive budget Star Wars in the cinema. 

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8 hours ago, enderdrag64 said:

If they aren't bots why does it matter if they're en masse or not?


You can consider a RottenTomatoes audience rating (or similar on IMDB, etc) as a canvassing of all types of moviegoers (which is true in some regards, but statistically dubious because you’re already limiting yourself to the types of people who rate movies on the Internet).  An organized downvoting skews that data to a completely unusable level.

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On 07/08/2022 at 1:49 AM, Tallguy said:

That sounds like a logical progression from Rogue One.

Rogue One was nothing but fan-service moments, so it would actually be a significant break from RO and everything Star Wars since 1999. But I'm not holding my breath. 

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I'm surprised we haven't seen Palpatine "dissolving" the senate yet, per the line in ANH.

 

I guess that can't happen in this series either, based on the established timeline.

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15 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Actually, taking away the gadgets, women, larger than life villains, martinis, luxury whatever, and seemingly limitless budget... and it can still be fuckin' awesome. Allow me to introduce you to...

image.png

 

YMMV, but for me more consistently strong than the Bond series in every way. Most of your list I'd consider liabilities in my enjoying Bond, rather than features. But for the record my favorite Bond film is easily Casino Royale (2006) and before that my favorite was The Living Daylights (1987) so I assume we are coming at this from very different tastes.

 

You sound like you like the books. :)

 

5 hours ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

Rogue One was nothing but fan-service moments, so it would actually be a significant break from RO and everything Star Wars since 1999. But I'm not holding my breath. 

 

I think that's just not true that RO is nothing but fan service. It certainly has it. There are certainly a lot of callbacks just because it's set in the few days before Star Wars. Yet it manages to be very much it's own thing while still being 100% Star Wars.

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41 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

Well, like you, everything I wrote is opinion, of course. De gustibus non est disputandum & all that.

 

I disagree with most of what you said...we look at what makes Star Wars special (and what we want to get from it) from fundamentally different perspectives...but I very much appreciate the thoughtful response, Yavar!

 

I mean, I love lightsabers and Jedi too! I just don't need *all* Star Wars stories to feature lightsabers and Jedi. There are *many different things* which make Star Wars wonderful! Han Solo is many people's favorite character from the original films. Not a Jedi at any point; he's essentially a space cowboy smuggler. (There's also the buddy dynamic with him and Chewbacca.) Of the three main original trilogy characters, only one is (well, becomes) a Jedi. Leia is introduced as a freedom fighter from the beginning and yes we eventually find out she has the Force too (not originally planned, of course), but that's not a defining element of her character as it is for Luke. In many ways Andor seems to be taking up the Leia-in-Episode 4 side of things, with all of the politics included in that too. ("The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this!")

I think it's very interesting if some Star Wars stuff is Jedi-free (after all, weren't they supposed to be rare, if not merely legends, at this point?) Maybe this comes from devouring a bunch of extended universe Star Wars books back when I was a teen, but I just loved further explorations into this universe, whether it be Force-related, WAR-related, bounty hunter/smuggler/crime underbelly-related, or what have you.

 

Yavar

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52 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

I think that's just not true that RO is nothing but fan service. It certainly has it. There are certainly a lot of callbacks just because it's set in the few days before Star Wars. Yet it manages to be very much it's own thing while still being 100% Star Wars.

The fact that you're a fan and you like it doesn't make it not fan service. It just means you're the target audience for the nostalgia baiting.

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46 minutes ago, JohnTheBaptist said:

The fact that you're a fan and you like it doesn't make it not fan service. It just means you're the target audience for the nostalgia baiting.

 

I think there is some nuance that you're not getting and I'm not up to communicating. (Yavar?)

 

Which leads me to:

 

1 hour ago, Yavar Moradi said:

In many ways Andor seems to be taking up the Leia-in-Episode 4 side of things, with all of the politics included in that too. ("The Imperial Senate will not sit still for this!")

 

I'm suddenly annoyed that Leia featured so prominently in Obi-Wan, if it means that she can't show up somewhere in Andor. I don't need them to meet or anything. But if Mon Mothma is going to be prominent in showing the the seeds of the Rebellion in the Imperial Senate then I would think that the Organa family should be in there somewhere. (I'm also just eager to see the original three leads recast - WITHOUT any CG) at any opportunity. Then it becomes a legendary character rather than just a legendary performance.)

 

Maybe that's the distinction between "fan service" and just "this is the story". If the Enterprise shows up in a Star Trek movie about the crew of the Enterprise then it isn't fan service. If Random Admiral Giving Exposition is LADIES AND GENTLEMEN IT'S Admiral Janeway! then that's fan service. Darth Vader, GM Tarkin, and Leia show up in a movie that is the prelude to Star Wars? That's what we signed up for. The two schmoes from the Mos Eisley cantina? That's fan service.

 

Rogue One was a Dirty Dozen style war movie. Andor seems to be a political espionage thriller (in SPACE). Oh please let it work!

 

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4 minutes ago, Tallguy said:

I'm suddenly annoyed that Leia featured so prominently in Obi-Wan, if it means that she can't show up somewhere in Andor.

 

I don't know why that would be (she'd be at very different ages and played by different actresses, for one thing). But I agree her presence would make much more sense (and not be fan service) in Andor.

 

Yavar

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It doesn’t  need lightsabers. 
It doesn’t need intrigue and espionage.
It doesn’t need gritty realism.  
It doesn’t need politics. 
 

It needs to be fun. 
 

Obi-Wan was many things, but it wasn’t a fun adventure. 
 

Andor looks to be filled with more of the all too serious tone. 
 

Remember Luke and Leia swinging across the Death Star bridge?

 

That was Star Wars. 
 

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6 hours ago, Pellaeon said:

Solo was at least trying to be fun.

 

The Lord and Miller version would probably have been even much funnier.

 

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10 hours ago, Andy said:

Remember Luke and Leia swinging across the Death Star bridge?

 

I tried explaining to my kids why THAT scene was one of the signature scenes in Star Wars. To the point where they did an encore in Return of the Jedi. Luke and Leia (after much build up) swing from here. To there.

 

I finally settled on "But the music is amazing!"

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Wasn't "The Swashbucklers" the first Star Wars music ever recorded?  That should set the tone for all to follow.

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9 minutes ago, Andy said:

Wasn't "The Swashbucklers" the first Star Wars music ever recorded?  That should set the tone for all to follow.

 

Yup!  Takes 1-7, and they used takes 5 and 7 for the final performance edit.

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1 hour ago, Andy said:

Wasn't "The Swashbucklers" the first Star Wars music ever recorded?  That should set the tone for all to follow.

It’s the bit that sounds most like it could have come from a classic korngold score. Lovely, unashamedly romantically whimsical moment of the sort that the later films sorely miss, especially the sequels. 

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On 9/8/2022 at 1:39 PM, Andy said:

It doesn’t  need lightsabers. 
It doesn’t need intrigue and espionage.
It doesn’t need gritty realism.  
It doesn’t need politics. 
 

It needs to be fun. 
 

Obi-Wan was many things, but it wasn’t a fun adventure. 
 

Andor looks to be filled with more of the all too serious tone. 
 

Remember Luke and Leia swinging across the Death Star bridge?

 

That was Star Wars. 
 


I don’t think ‘fun’ really covers it

 

I think Star Wars needs humanity, there needs to be light to both balance and more harshly contrast the darkness. It can’t be torture porn and it can’t be light and breezy

 

When I look at the Bane trilogy from the EU, that is undeniably Star Wars to me but there’s not really a single moment it tries to be fun. It’s a very dark and tragic tale about what it means to both be and succeed as Sith, however it’s not indulgent. The darkness is presented very matter-of-factly, almost non-chalantly, as if it’s saying this is what it means to follow the dark path, the darkness is expected, and is not just the work reveling or drawing attention to how miserable it is - things just are, and the characters have to deal with it

 

Yet it’s still a series that has humanity, these are deep and nuanced characters interacting with a complex and layered world where you understand every decision that resulted in the person they are now

 

I think the mistake a lot of people make is to see something ‘dark’ and ‘serious’ as lacking ‘fun’ because the work feels like that’s an accolade to wear, and as such it feels forced, indulgent, and one-dimensional. If Andor is matter-of-fact and succeeds in creating human characters and a world with a balance of light and dark, it will feel like Star Wars. If not, then it’s not the approach that’s the problem - it’s the execution

 

Basically… it needs to not be Rogue One

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I miss Threepio and Artoo.  They've been taken for granted for too long.

 

EDIT with merged response...

 

15 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said:

I always find is so bizarre how "obscure" that cue is. When I think of music from the first film, that cue always pops up, but I pretty much never see anyone else mention it when talking about their favorite pieces. It's one of the greatest pieces of action music, one of the greatest arrangements of the main theme, AND the original Imperial motif; I always thought it deserved it's own concert performance of some kind! Not to mention it underscores one of the most iconic scenes in all of Star Wars...

 

I loved when Williams used to score big setpieces that allowed his themes their glory statements.  They really were the money shot moments, musically.  The Swashbucklers being Star Wars' moment.

 

The Helicopter Rescue with the Superman March is full on marching band style.

The German Sub in Raiders when Jones climbs out of the sea onto the sub and salutes the Bantu crew.  The crew is cheering and so are we.

and of course the Flying scenes from E.T.

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1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

I think anakin understood r2 in the prequels

No, he didn't.

 

From episode 5 we know, that in their space ships the pilot has a translater display in the cockpit, getting the R2 unit's talk as kind of chat message.

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The was a deleted scene in rots, in grievous ship that anakin and obi wan talk about r2 and anakin imitates the robots speech…

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5 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Have you seen this little 1980 sequel film called The Empire Strikes Back? ;) Are you seriously going to tell me THAT is "a fun adventure"?


Well, frankly…yes.

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Gonna have to agree with Yavar.

 

As a kid, Empire was the one I watched less.

8 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

The was a deleted scene in rots, in grievous ship that anakin and obi wan talk about r2 and anakin imitates the robots speech…

But the same scene also makes it clear that Anakin is guessing.

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29 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

Well, frankly…yes.

 

What happens in Empire that's fun (like the example of Luke and Leia swinging across in Star Wars), aside from the few bits I acknowledged? And adding up all the fun moments, do you really think they even come close in quantity/quality to the dark parts I listed?

 

Can you at least acknowledge that the sequel film generally has a very different (and much darker) tone than the original Star Wars, and that there's therefore some room to push the boundaries of tone/story content in the Star Wars universe? I'll be surprised if there aren't a few moments of fun here and there in Andor... Rogue One had them, after all.

 

Also, even the original (much more fun) Star Wars has pretty dark moments which would seem like they would fit in well with Andor (Luke's aunt and uncle murdered, Leia interrogated with drugs, the destruction of the entire planet of Alderaan??) It is still about "the last remnants of the Old Republic" being "swept away" (when the Senate is dissolved), after all, before the Death Star is (barely in time) destroyed.

 

Yavar

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Well, that's the real trick, isn't it?

 

Star Wars has the dissolution of a major democratically elected body by a tyrannical empire, the murder of the main character's foster parents, the death of the mentor character, and THE DESTRUCTION OF AN ENTIRE PLANET just so the baddies could prove a point!

 

But it's FUN! (And it is. It's fun!)

 

Empire is the "dark one" but it's still a hoot. ("They just killed Dak! But I'm still having a really good time!") It ends on a downbeat note, but it's a Star Wars movie. You still have a pretty certain idea that everything is going to be OK. You're just a little confused because you've never seen a "To be continued" in a major motion picture before!

 

Rogue One is mostly darker not so much for the body count but for the fact that the main characters know that they're in a "tragedy" and they aren't happy about it. (Really the first time in Star Wars this has happened, right? Anakin was a literal slave and he was very happy go lucky about it.) But even so, Rogue One is also... FUN!

 

I had a fair amount of fun watching Obi-Wan. A lot of that came from Leia. I just had to say "Oh, they're inserting a story here where I didn't think there was one. OK. Why aren't they making something set between Star Wars and Empire?" It didn't set my world on fire but this wasn't a story that I've been dying to see.

 

I'm kind of thinking that Andor might be a story that I've been dying to see. Or at least might have wondered about.

 

And it might be fun!

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53 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Can you at least acknowledge that the sequel film generally has a very different (and much darker) tone than the original Star Wars

 

Sure, I guess the tone of the second film is dark, but only somewhat in comparison to the first film. But it's still a fun, grand adventure...every minute of it. At least, I have fun (and I'm often moved) watching it.  It's my favorite of the films.

 

I mean, Temple of Doom is described as "dark" (including by its director) the same way Empire is, but it's still mostly just a fun adventure, which is what people expect when they see these movies.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Tallguy said:

You're just a little confused because you've never seen a "To be continued" in a major motion picture before!

I had this exact same experience as a kid, not with TESB but with The Fellowship of the Ring. I was a dumb kid and we didn't have internet in the early 2000s, so I honestly had no idea that the first LOTR movie would end with a cliffhanger.

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2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I had this exact same experience as a kid, not with TESB but with The Fellowship of the Ring. I was a dumb kid and we didn't have internet in the early 2000s, so I honestly had no idea that the first LOTR movie would end with a cliffhanger.

I was confused because I had watched the Bakshi film prior, so I was susprised it ended way before the battle of Helms Deep.

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5 hours ago, Yavar Moradi said:

Also, even the original (much more fun) Star Wars has pretty dark moments which would seem like they would fit in well with Andor (Luke's aunt and uncle murdered, Leia interrogated with drugs, the destruction of the entire planet of Alderaan??) It is still about "the last remnants of the Old Republic" being "swept away" (when the Senate is dissolved), after all, before the Death Star is (barely in time) destroyed.

 

Yavar


In this instance it’s a matter of presentation and focus. We see Owen and Beru’s skeletons briefly and Luke doesn’t dwell on it, instead using it as motivation to leave his home behind. Same with the destruction of Alderaan, single self-contained sequence that has no long-term impact on Princess Leia

 

These aren’t particularly realistic reactions from our characters, but it works because the movie is deliberately going for an optimistic tone rather than a pessimistic or realist one

 

I can relate far more to the ESB’s realism because the characters feel far more like real people (Luke in stunned bewilderment questioning why Ben lied to him), but I recognise there’s a place for larger than life fairytale figures. ESB is the movie that establishes both approaches can co-exist in the franchise

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7 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

ESB is the movie that establishes both approaches can co-exist in the franchise

 

They co-exist in the same film. That's why Empire is the best chapter.

 

Star Wars without any kind of grounded realism and characters acting like they're real people is Star Wars at its worst (e.g. AOTC). Empire is Star Wars at its best because it's both operatic, full of pathos and a heightened sense of drama, with the mythology and all the trappings of Star Wars fully intact, but also a story grounded in real characters acting like genuine human beings. 

 

But, like The Force itself, it's about balance...Star Wars needs both to be something truly great.

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15 minutes ago, Nick1Ø66 said:

 

They co-exist in the same film. That's why Empire is the best chapter.

 

Star Wars without any kind of grounded realism and characters acting like they're real people is Star Wars at its worst (e.g. AOTC). Empire is Star Wars at its best because it's both operatic, full of pathos and a heightened sense of drama, with the mythology and all the trappings of Star Wars fully intact, but also a story grounded in real characters acting like genuine human beings. 

 

But, like The Force itself, it's about balance...Star Wars needs both to be something truly great.


AOTC is many things, but it is certainly not grounded realism and full of realistic characters

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2 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:


AOTC is many things, but it is certainly not grounded realism and full of realistic characters

 

Which...is what I said.

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Interesting parallel between Rogue One (2016) and Discovery, Season 1 (2017):

  1. Rebellion/Starfleet not idealistic
  2. Dead-faced protagonist super not idealistic
  3. Entire movie/season of gritty, cynical badassery
  4. Protagonist suddenly decides to lecture Rebellion/Starfleet on how they should be idealistic after all
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Rogue One made it pretty clear that she was hiding the idealism she took from her father for survival/to cope with the trauma.

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