Harry Potter 7CD Collection - MUSIC discussion

[mrbellamy 6,286]

20 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

 

 

 

You know there is a funny sort of resemblance

 

 

 

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Hehehehehe

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

I see Mike still uses CRT screens.

[MikeH 768]

https://www.orchestraltools.com/store/magazine/view/33
 

Richard Harvey talks playing the “Window to the Past” solo during the Azkaban sessions. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

What a great guy! Wonderful player.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

 

HMM - I think this video more articulately expresses the problem some people have with HP3 score than CC managed.

 

When you see it framed this way, you do wonder that how come Williams literally chucked 20+ themes and motifs for the 3rd film in the series. Out of the blue.

 

Surely he's talented enough to adapt his earlier themes to darker textures. Why just suddenly wholesale discard your material?

[Smeltington 1,440]

Agree with you that it would have been nice to have at least some small representation of the existing themes, and that he could have easily pulled off a tone shift while still using them. My theory has always been that he wanted a fresh start because he probably felt the earlier material was getting stale after all the rehashing in Chamber of Secrets. Looking at some of his other sequel scores, he takes pride in coming up with new ideas and often shies away from leaning too heavily on old material. He was proud to say in an interview for one of the Star Wars sequels (I think it was TFA) what a small fraction of the score was made up of old themes. Plus he's chucked out lots of other themes in other sequel scores. Like writing a new Indy nazi theme, losing the ANH Imperial theme, "Finn's" theme, Anakin's theme, Rose's theme, the list goes on. So it's not out of character for him... although it's still puzzling.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Dumping the old themes was the best thing Williams could do - don't believe me? - listen to The Prisoner of Azkaban!

[mrbellamy 6,286]

For one thing, I don’t think Chamber of Secrets would have reused as much as it did if he had given the whole thing his full attention, so I think it’s already lopsided for that reason. There are probably a dozen recurring motifs or more that might not have been so recurring ordinarily. A lot of them are really superficial/tangential, like the Flying Keys being repurposed for the Pixies, Norbert for the slugs etc. However Columbus also routinely calls back to specific scenes, shots, situations from the first one as well which Cuaron inevitably avoids.

 

And the other thing that I’ve always said is that Azkaban is unique in that it’s one of only two of the films without any physical appearance by Voldemort, and the only one if you count the memories in Half Blood Prince. And there isn’t really much opportunity for even a fleeting callback a la Imperial March in Last Jedi. He could have used the Nimbus themes for the Quidditch game or the family/friendship themes for certain moments, I guess, but he didn’t? I don’t think it’s that weird.

 

To me it’s just a moot point because there were 5 other potential scores for those themes to return (or not) and to just see what he would have done. Probably the most relevant things would have come together while we’d still be scratching our heads over minutia like always. But I don’t think it’s something you can really go that far criticizing Azkaban on as far as thematic continuity and development because it’s an abandoned work.

[oierem 152]

6 hours ago, Smeltington said:

Agree with you that it would have been nice to have at least some small representation of the existing themes, and that he could have easily pulled off a tone shift while still using them. My theory has always been that he wanted a fresh start because he probably felt the earlier material was getting stale after all the rehashing in Chamber of Secrets. Looking at some of his other sequel scores, he takes pride in coming up with new ideas and often shies away from leaning too heavily on old material. He was proud to say in an interview for one of the Star Wars sequels (I think it was TFA) what a small fraction of the score was made up of old themes. Plus he's chucked out lots of other themes in other sequel scores. Like writing a new Indy nazi theme, losing the ANH Imperial theme, "Finn's" theme, Anakin's theme, Rose's theme, the list goes on. So it's not out of character for him... although it's still puzzling.

 

I think overall Williams is not as concerned as we, as fans, are about the keeping a thematic and motivic coherence in his sequels. As you say, he takes pride on not relying too much on old material.

 

The OT of SW is the best and most perfect example of Williams contructing a coherent thematic narrative throughout the three films (and even still, many of the minor motifs disappear from film to film, and he only keeps the major themes). The PT and the ST also keep a sense of thematic continuity, but again, it's far from "perfect". He seems perfectly fine letting Anakin's theme disappear, as you said (or Finn's, or Rose's....). And I admit that I don't really like his recent tendency of copying entire passages of previous scores (as he has done in the last two sequels), which is not the best example of thematic development. 

 

But we have many other examples of Williams not crafting a coherent sequel score. Home Alone 2 is a perfect example of reusing material, often copying without any new development. The Lost World is an example of the contrary: barely and thematic conections, except for a few brief quotes (and a copy&pasted concert suite at the end).

 

I've often said that I see Williams closer to Mozart (who had the gift of creating unlimited sweeping new melodies, but he didn't really care about developing them), than to Beethoven (who used short thematic elements and developed them ---- something closer to Howard Shore for example). Which isn't a bad thing, at all!

 

It's true that Williams often talks about the use of themes in his SW movies (and others), and even though there are some great examples, I think he doesn't really care that much about developing themes, and he more often tends to just quote them, with not too many substantital variations. 

 

In HP3, I think he just watched a very different film and was clearly inspired (and possibly pushed) to write very different music. 

 

[Richard Penna 3,687]

A lot of stock is being put into musing why JW would decide to put all his themes in the bin.

 

It could be easily explained by Cuaron deciding he wanted a musical change to go along with his darker tone, and asking JW to not reuse his themes.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

He probably just forgot about them.

[Holko 9,526]

Actually Azkaban has a dark lower range unfinished Family statement in Rescue of Sirius and a (very likely only imagined by me) faint, unsure Hogwarts Forever opening starting Snape Dresses Up V2!

[bollemanneke 3,348]

I can see why you hear these things, but really don't think that's what's going on.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

I may not be the first to ask, but what do you guys think of the transition at 9:28 in Time Past / Saving Buckbeak (POA 2-02)? Is it a bad edit or what?

[Chewy 2,391]

1 hour ago, A. A. Ron said:

I may not be the first to ask, but what do you guys think of the transition at 9:28 in Time Past / Saving Buckbeak (POA 2-02)? Is it a bad edit or what?

Yes it is a bad edit, but I've personally come to get used to it and it doesn't bother me so much anymore.

[crumbs 14,315]

I don't notice it because I fixed it in my edit. 

 

About 3/24 of a second is looped before the insert, for whatever reason. Maybe just a relic from whatever element had the Bats insert. For all we know that insert was already appended to Saving Buckbeak in the elements. Does it sound wrong in the film? 

[Holko 9,526]

For all we know it may be that the new ending just doesn't fit too well onto the already complete take with the old ending but the film gets away with it because mixing and sound effects, so Mike compromised?

[crumbs 14,315]

1 hour ago, Holko said:

For all we know it may be that the new ending just doesn't fit too well onto the already complete take with the old ending but the film gets away with it because mixing and sound effects, so Mike compromised?

 

Checked the film and it sounds fine. The edit isn't really disguised or hidden under SFX, it's seamless.

[bollemanneke 3,348]

I'm beginning to think LLL sent me a copy none of you got.

[Holko 9,526]

8 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

Checked the film and it sounds fine. The edit isn't really disguised or hidden under SFX, it's seamless.

hm

[bollemanneke 3,348]

oh, NOW I know what you mean! It's hardly noticeable though.

[crumbs 14,315]

13 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

oh, NOW I know what you mean! It's hardly noticeable though.

 

I noticed it from my first listen, the transition always sounded off. I wonder if it's partly mental though, because everyone listening to that track is specifically waiting to hear that insert begin (a highly coveted unreleased cue until the LLL release), and your brain is so used to the existing version that it's doubly jarring on first listen.

 

I had a similar experience with the unreleased section of Rescuing Sarah. Something sounded off for the first few listens, simply because I spent two decades hearing that damn OST microedit. I couldn't imagine going back to the OST version now.

[bollemanneke 3,348]

I still have that reaction when the Diagon Alley insert in HP1 is over. I still think the recorder starts a fraction of a second too late. (Re-issue!!!)

[crumbs 14,315]

17 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

I still have that reaction when the Diagon Alley insert in HP1 is over. I still think the recorder starts a fraction of a second too late. (Re-issue!!!)

 

I think that insert took everyone a while to get used to, it was totally out of the blue.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

I had a similar experience with the unreleased section of Rescuing Sarah. Something sounded off for the first few listens.

 

2 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

I still have that reaction when the Diagon Alley insert in HP1 is over.

 

But those are musically and editorially flawless pieces. The Saving Buckbeak issue is not.

[bollemanneke 3,348]

Disagree.

[crumbs 14,315]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

Disagree.

 

Don't understand how you can argue it's flawless when there's a clear editing mistake there?

 

I can understand people disagreeing over early or late crossfades throughout the set (The Flying Car springs to mind) but the Bats extension is clearly an editing flub.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

It's how JW wants it.

[Arpy 4,145]

Aside from the two small glitches in Rescuing Sirius, there's another slight one near the beginning of the track that always puts me off - it's miniscule but I can hear it every time! Both seem to be present in the film when I checked so they're artifacts of the recording and not the mastering. 

[crumbs 14,315]

25 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Aside from the two small glitches in Rescuing Sirius, there's another slight one near the beginning of the track that always puts me off - it's miniscule but I can hear it every time! Both seem to be present in the film when I checked so they're artifacts of the recording and not the mastering. 

 

Oh geez, please don't tell me unless they can be fixed. Happy to blissfully ignorant on these things occasionally.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

On 4/8/2020 at 4:31 AM, Smeltington said:

He was proud to say in an interview for one of the Star Wars sequels (I think it was TFA) what a small fraction of the score was made up of old themes. Plus he's chucked out lots of other themes in other sequel scores. Like writing a new Indy nazi theme, losing the ANH Imperial theme, "Finn's" theme, Anakin's theme, Rose's theme, the list goes on. So it's not out of character for him... although it's still puzzling.

 

Nah, he just forgets about the old themes.

[crumbs 14,315]

For anyone totally perplexed about the whole Saving Buckbeak thing, this might help. Listen carefully to the LLL transition first at exactly 0:02, then my edited version second. Notice that a fragment of music skips/repeats, like a scratched CD:

 

jurassicjello · Saving Buckbeak Fixed

[Edmilson 7,443]

Yeah, the transition on the fixed version is much smoother than the one on the LLL.

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

Just listen to the OST.

[bollemanneke 3,348]

Just don't listen to the score at all.

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

3 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

But those are musically and editorially flawless pieces. The Saving Buckbeak issue is not.

 

2 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Disagree.

 

This edit may not bother you and that's fine, but you don't get to "disagree" that there is a flaw. There objectively is.

[crumbs 14,315]

33 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Just don't listen to the score at all.

 

I don't understand the basis of this comment. By this rationale, anyone who mentioned the teeth misprint shouldn't listen to Jurassic Park either?

 

I think you'll find the appreciation and praise towards Mike, all the labels and all the hard working folk getting these releases out the door would far outweigh any discussion about flaws in the sets. And I certainly intend to continue supporting them in the hope these releases continue for years to come.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

For anyone totally perplexed about the whole Saving Buckbeak thing, this might help. Listen carefully to the LLL transition first at exactly 0:02, then my edited version second. Notice that a fragment of music skips/repeats, like a scratched CD:

 

jurassicjello · Saving Buckbeak Fixed

There's no skip/repeat any more, however, it is rhythmically even worse than the original. It just cuts to the alternate ending at a random spot. In my opinion, it was a wrong decision to put that musically very questionable alternate in the main program to begin with.

[crumbs 14,315]

1 minute ago, Brundlefly said:

There's no skip/repeat any more, however, it is rhythmically even worse than the original. It just cuts to the alternate ending at a random spot.

 

I don't think there's a better way to fix it, to be honest (short of asking Mike if he can check his elements and see if there's something amiss on his editing timeline).

[Brundlefly 2,385]

I guess you're right.

[bollemanneke 3,348]

41 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

I don't understand the basis of this comment. By this rationale, anyone who mentioned the teeth misprint shouldn't listen to Jurassic Park either?

 

I think you'll find the appreciation and praise towards Mike, all the labels and all the hard working folk getting these releases out the door would far outweigh any discussion about flaws in the sets. And I certainly intend to continue supporting them in the hope these releases continue for years to come.

I was joking.

[Smaug The Iron 515]

I have never heard that edit before but now that I have I think it is not as bad as many are saying. You can hardly hear it really unless you are listening really close and even then it is not to bad. Yeah it is a mistake but I can hardly hear it so its no problem for me. 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

It is the only mistake that MM ever did in his whole life.

[Edmilson 7,443]

Question for the Azkaban experts: on Time Past/Saving Buckbeak, is the sound of the clock ticking a sound effect that Williams incorporated into his score? Also, from 0:13 to 0:28, the orchestra sounds like it was artifially playing backwards, as if they took the recording and reversed it to give an impression of the time returning.

 

In any case, a pretty amazing example of Williams making his music sound, say, "clock-y". lol

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

1 hour ago, crumbs said:

By this rationale, anyone who mentioned the teeth misprint shouldn't listen to Jurassic Park either?

 

It's sufficient not to look at it.

[mrbellamy 6,286]

7 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

In any case, a pretty amazing example of Williams making his music sound, say, "clock-y". lol

 

We need a poll putting it against Prokofiev's "Midnight" from Cinderella and Leroy Anderson's "The Syncopated Clock"

 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,075]

Not to mention the clock symphony!

[Datameister 2,042]

37 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Question for the Azkaban experts: on Time Past/Saving Buckbeak, is the sound of the clock ticking a sound effect that Williams incorporated into his score? Also, from 0:13 to 0:28, the orchestra sounds like it was artifially playing backwards, as if they took the recording and reversed it to give an impression of the time returning.

 

In any case, a pretty amazing example of Williams making his music sound, say, "clock-y". lol

 

Various parts of that sequence call for clock ticking sounds in the score, though they sometimes don't quite match what we hear. And you're not imagining things - there are reversed audio elements mixed in too. Brilliant writing.

[bollemanneke 3,348]

We really need a big score analysis.