Harry Potter 7CD Collection - MUSIC discussion

[bollemanneke 3,334]

Great point about the HP1 source cues. And yes, luckily we have nearly every clean opening and ending from HP3. It could have been much, much worse.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

Some of the HP3 liberties don't work for me at all, however. For instance, going from Birds to The Courtyard. In my view, it would have been far better to have Birds, Sir Cadogan, then The Courtyard and then The Hippogriff Lesson. Makes much more sense musically. And moving the Hogsmeade source cues to the bonus section is something I would never have done either. I’m guessing these decisions were taken because JW didn’t include them on the OST, but then, he also didn’t include The Courtyard.

However, would it have been completely chronological, every musical senselessness had been accepted.

[crumbs 14,287]

I tried a strictly chronological edit of Azkaban, even moving the source cues to their correct place, and I ultimately preferred Mike's assembly. 

 

Bunching those 3 source cues (candy store, Three Broomsticks and Winter's Spell) between the suspense-heavy score cues really breaks the musical narrative heading into Act 3. 

[Jay 37,249]

I think Star Wars is the only score where I love having the source cues as part of the main program - Cantina Band 1 and 2 are just that iconic and essential

 

In any other score I can think of, source music is a bonus I sometimes listen to after the main program is over, sometimes not

[Alan 689]

I might try doing my own chronological edit of Azkaban again (recently found out I get Adobe Audition free with work so hey, might as well use it!). Doubt I'll prefer it to what Mike came up with though.

 

Will be an interesting experiment if nothing else. I always knew HP3 was heavy on the short cues but had no idea it was so complicated!

[bollemanneke 3,334]

5 hours ago, crumbs said:

I tried a strictly chronological edit of Azkaban, even moving the source cues to their correct place, and I ultimately preferred Mike's assembly. 

 

Bunching those 3 source cues (candy store, Three Broomsticks and Winter's Spell) between the suspense-heavy score cues really breaks the musical narrative heading into Act 3. 

But that's the thing, however awkward those cues feel in their rightful place, it's the only way they make sense in the story. Why would you change the narrative of a film score? Why can't HP3 just be a disjointed score?

[crumbs 14,287]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

But that's the thing, however awkward those cues feel in their rightful place, it's the only way they make sense in the story. Why would you change the narrative of a film score? Why can't HP3 just be a disjointed score?

 

Well source cues aren't really designed to be heard in their entirety at full volume, rather in fragments as background ambience. They don't sync to events onscreen or contribute to the musical narrative like score cues. Still, they're interesting as standalone cues and I'm always happy to hear them... just relegated to the bonus section.

 

Ironically, the only missing source music (Shawm) is probably the most effective at meshing directly into the score itself; the unsettling dissonance it creates with Discussing Black is tremendously effective and rather unique. Despite all the tedious jokes, I still think it's a shame it wasn't on the LLL. One of the few instances where source and score are intertwined by design and create an entirely new texture (can anyone with the sheet music confirm if there's an overlap direction here?)

 

Reminds me of the way Poisoned Dates blends with the Azan prayer in Raiders, though I doubt Williams handled the latter:

 

[bollemanneke 3,334]

You''re right, we ned a re-release, produced by JWFan. We must locate the tapes.

[Holko 9,491]

2 minutes ago, crumbs said:

ronically, the only missing source music (Shawm) is probably the most effective at meshing directly into the score itself; the unsettling dissonance it creates with Discussing Black is tremendously effective and rather unique. Despite all the tedious jokes, I still think it's a shame it wasn't on the LLL. One of the few instances where source and score are seemingly designed to overlap and create an entirely new texture

 

3 minutes ago, crumbs said:

They don't sync to the events happening

Wait till I post the CE3K iso score, you'll be surprised

[crumbs 14,287]

2 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

You''re right, we ned a re-release, produced by JWFan. We must locate the tapes.

 

 

[TSMefford 1,509]

I tend to listen to Mike's program most as well, but I have a playlist that recreates nearly all the film edits regardless of how nasty they are. I enjoy music editing though so it was fun to recreate, but I imagine there are many here that would hate listening to it this way. I also do have a playlist that separates all the cues out as close as I can to how they were recorded though.

 

Essentially I have 4 Azkaban playlists: OST, LLL, Film Edit, Recorded Cues.

[Richard Penna 3,662]

I used to have more film edits, particularly for the first score, but I eventually settled only on the tracked Halloween and First Night cues.

 

I've kept CoS and Azkaban pretty much exactly as they are. I did switch out the alternate Aunt Marge's Waltz to get the stinger, and I prefer the alternate opening.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

5 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Why would you change the narrative of a film score?

=>

5 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

awkward those cues feel in their rightful place

[bollemanneke 3,334]

Great that was.

[Holko 9,491]

I have a solid background in recording session reediting (a main program has to be really really perfect for me not to meddle with it at all - JW's Dracula, Intrada Jaws, Black Sunday, STTMP and WoK, Empire of the Sun, A.I. for example) - but especially with HP1 and 2, I knew those inside and out and still do.

 

This is my current version I keep on my phone after many revisions:

Spoiler

The only main changes to the LLL are restoring It's Guarding Something and Troll in the Dungeon to their place, I think they just completely stop Running to McGonnagall's inertia as Neville Stiffens, I recreated the Halloween tracking and included Hermione's Feather in front of Diagon Alley. The rest are just joining some cues I'm used to being joined. Leaky Cauldron is the sessions take with the ending.

Spoiler

Removed some cues I personally felt didn't help push the narrative along or were repeating material from 1 not very well and without adding anything new of value - Borgin and Burkes, Flourish and Botts/Harry Meets Lucius, Cornish Pixies, Eat Slugs, The Dueling Club. Thus I feel this is much more focused on the mystery core of the score and feels a lot more rewarding and less tedious to listen to for me. Also joined some cues like the 3 Spiders ones, and recreated all the tracking because I do like those or even feel they're important - certainly all of them are done better than Eat Slugs or Cornish Pixies that just repeat the same excerpt multiple times. Prologue Book II is the alternate, even that much diversion makes a difference, Car Drives Off is also the alternate, as is Petrified Colin.

Spoiler

Now this is more complex - I generally tried to be more chronological but liked a lot of stuff Mike did or kept. Let's just go in order.

- Aunt Marge is the alternate with the stingers, I prefer it.

- The Leaky Cauldron is the source cue (first part of Wizards' Consort) plus Monster Book plus Shawm+Discussing Black (from the AotS podcast) plus Train to Hogwarts film version.

- Something Wicked This Way Comes is Something Wicked Intro + Double Trouble, approximation of the film transition.

- Warnings, Rainy Nights, Dementors and Birds is the middle of Trouble Takes Many Forms (no Train to Hogwartses) plus the next cue.

- I do love Courtyard and Sir Cadogan and its transition to Hippogriff Lesson.

- Befriending the Hippogriff's opening is from the AotS podcast for the descending harpsichord.

- Buckbeak's Flight is partially taken from the OST "Mischief Managed" track so that a longer pat of the original quieter material plays after the revised percussion intro.

- The Boggarts - recreated the film assembly of Snape Dresses up from the 2 versions, rest stayed.

- I do really like Candy Box and other source music here, it's a nice lighthearted break in the middle. Wizards' Consort is naturally only the last 2 bits, as the first one was already used.

- Time Past uses the AotS film opening, the end is the OST version then the film version, not happy with that but don't know which one to pick.

- Used the OST version of Lupin's Transformation first (I think the WttP overlay feels awkwardly out of rythm) then change back for the ending, joined with Watching the Past and Rescue of Sirius.

 

The rest is the LLL or obvious joinings.

Spoiler

I start with the Children's Suite (Hogwarts Forever starts with the vocal version but that's it) then continue with the other concert pieces, sort of like an extension of the Suite, it even works in the way that HWW finally has the whole orchestra playing together so they can go on and play the other ones. Double Trouble is Train to Hogwarts V2 then the full choral piece transitioning to the alternate Firebolt (the actually different part), which then continues on with the Credits version of Double Trouble as it does on the OST, then when we get to the Hagrid the Professor-esque part, I use Hagrid the Professor's ending to give it a clean ending. The Firebolt and Finale is Owl's Flight plus the Azkaban credits take of Hedwig with a fabricated clean opening. Here ends my "Extended Suite" and the rest of the goodies continue like on HP1 disc 3. Teaser is the HP1 teaser. More Grim and Boggarts has the alternate edit of the 2 versions of Snape Dresses Up at the end. Television Commercial is the shorter Chamber of Secrets one with Fawkes. Aunts, Wands and Broomsticks starts with the excellent BDZ/Hollerung version of Double Trouble, then the OST and film version of Aunt Marge's Waltz, then Knight Bus alternate without the opening ride section, starting with Newspaper Headliner, then the alternate Lupin's Transformation with a shortened middle action section, then the alternate Quidditch, Third Year shortened significantly at a convenient point, then the second half of Dementors Converge. Dementors and Patronuses- Three Choral Miniatures is the 3 choral pieces in the LLL order. Television Commercial is Hedwig Tries a Coke, Teaser is the Azkaban teaser. Put in Leaving Hogwarts as a satisfying finale.

 

This bonus assembly, or parts of it, are what I listen to most often, actually.

[Faleel 5,326]

For me it is a case by case basis if I listen to source music in the main program, some composers do source cues better than others, and some scores have better source cues than others.

[Holko 9,491]

Absolutely. HP's source cues are good and fit into the score body pretty well, CE3K's source cues are great but don't fit into the main score body at all.

[Faleel 5,326]

But they do flow, in a crazy kind of way.

[Holko 9,491]

Clarification: I meant Eleventh Commandment, TV Western and Lava Flow. I love The Five Notes, Advance Scout Greeting and The Conversation very much in their chrono places, I always kinda forget they're "just" source cues. They're crucial in setting up the 5 note motif so it can be paid off at the end.

[Faleel 5,326]

I knew.

[BrotherSound 2,241]

7 hours ago, crumbs said:

Ironically, the only missing source music (Shawm) is probably the most effective at meshing directly into the score itself; the unsettling dissonance it creates with Discussing Black is tremendously effective and rather unique. Despite all the tedious jokes, I still think it's a shame it wasn't on the LLL. One of the few instances where source and score are intertwined by design and create an entirely new texture (can anyone with the sheet music confirm if there's an overlap direction here?)

The original sheet music for Shawm never leaked b (or any of the other source music, for that matter), only Discussing Black. However, the LTP score has the Shawm solo (given here to the English Horn) written in time with the rest of the orchestra. If it wasn’t intended to precisely line up, there’s notations to indicate that, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here:

 

[Jay 37,249]

All the source music was recorded wild (not synced to any footage) and Cuaron and the music editors mixed it in where they wanted

[bollemanneke 3,334]

Someone needs to mock up the shawm using the LTP score now.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

@Spider-Fal, I like Jars Of Clay. Ate they still going?

[Faleel 5,326]

2 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

@Spider-Fal, I like Jars Of Clay. Ate they still going?

I believe so, they did a collab Christmad album recently, their last actual album was in 2013 though.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

Thanks. Their first one (maybe?), the one produced by Stephen Lipson is good.

[ragoz350 450]

2 hours ago, BrotherSound said:

The original sheet music for Shawm never leaked b (or any of the other source music, for that matter), only Discussing Black. However, the LTP score has the Shawm solo (given here to the English Horn) written in time with the rest of the orchestra. If it wasn’t intended to precisely line up, there’s notations to indicate that, but that doesn’t seem to be the case here:

Oh, now we need ENGLIISH HORN cue instead of SHAWM 

[Faleel 5,326]

10 hours ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Thanks. Their first one (maybe?), the one produced by Stephen Lipson is good.

Yup.

 

Edit: checking on Wiki, it seems Lipson produced their second album Much Afraid.

 

My favorite would have to be either Good Monsters or Eleventh Hour

[Jay 37,249]

What do you guys think looks better:

Version with no color, just lines in between each track

 

 

Version with no lines, just alternating colors between each track

 

 

[Faleel 5,326]

Lines

[Once 604]

I agree, lines. But they're both easily readable.

[Holko 9,491]

The colours would be fine if the heights wouldn't vary so much. I say lines too.

[TSMefford 1,509]

My vote is colors. I think that's far easier to read.

 

It's almost here everybody!

[Smeltington 1,436]

The lines are divine!

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Colours are far easier to read. The lines are a visual mess in comparison.

[crumbs 14,287]

I prefer the coloured version, personally.

 

Might I suggest a hybrid of the two? Maybe a slightly lighter shade of yellow (so it's not too distinct from the white) and dividing lines that aren't quite as thick as the line version.

[TSMefford 1,509]

7 hours ago, crumbs said:

I prefer the coloured version, personally.

 

Might I suggest a hybrid of the two? Maybe a slightly lighter shade of yellow (so it's not too distinct from the white) and dividing lines that aren't quite as thick as the line version.

 

Great idea.

[igger6 894]

Unrelated: I just threw together a Potter On-the-Go playlist (yep, on my iPod Classic!) to underscore the Halloween decorating process in my classroom, and at 0:33 in "The Rescue of Sirius," I swear I heard a fleeting, transformed reference to the old "Family Portrait" theme in the buildup to Buckbeak's theme.  What say you?  Is there one more SS theme in POA?

 

 

And another thought: "Hogsmeade Candy Box" would have made a great Alan Silvestri '90s comedy theme.  Imagine it done by a full orchestra at a decent tempo.  What a hidden gem of a melody!

[TSMefford 1,509]

On 10/1/2020 at 4:28 PM, igger6 said:

at 0:33 in "The Rescue of Sirius," I swear I heard a fleeting, transformed reference to the old "Family Portrait" theme in the buildup to Buckbeak's theme.  What say you?  Is there one more SS theme in POA?

 

Hmmm. That is quite interesting. I can actually hear that a bit. Maybe?

[Jay 37,249]

Well, here it is

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R7JM5QmRNh6PbgqeBH_lbj2C3WLbzxz9px3Z7GKLaAk/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

[ragoz350 450]

Oh god, mockups in the spreadsheet

[bollemanneke 3,334]

YES! Busy evening ahead now.

[ragoz350 450]

Gorgeous table. I only noticed a couple of oddities on Complete Cue List:

Quote

7M6A - Sesssions & LLL both have ticking clock

(what sessions)

Quote

The Patronus Power - Probably recorded as an optional new ending for 6M5AN First Frozen Lake, but went unused

Probably, nevertheless, for 6M5 pt 2. This insert will sound very strange if inserted into 6M5AN.

Quote

Fan mockup "Dueling The Dementor Mockup #2" - Choral overlay for original 4M14 Dueling The Dementor

This is a complete insert that replaces the old material from original 4M14. 

 

In general, of course, the music for POA is a complete mess. Here it's very difficult to understand what's what...

[Smeltington 1,436]

Wonderful! Thanks for this! You managed to organize this well, so that it looks as simplified as possible for such a complicated score.

[Jay 37,249]

1 hour ago, ragoz350 said:

Gorgeous table. I only noticed a couple of oddities on Complete Cue List:

(what sessions)

 

Ha, nice typo; I meant to say "film and LLL" of course.  

 

Quote

Probably, nevertheless, for 6M5 pt 2. This insert will sound very strange if inserted into 6M5AN.

 

OK, I'll update that!

 

Quote

This is a complete insert that replaces the old material from original 4M14. 

 

Oh really?  So even though its called "Insert for Patronus Light", it replaces the entire original 4M14, it doesn't overlay on top of it?

 

Quote

In general, of course, the music for POA is a complete mess. Here it's very difficult to understand what's what...

 

That's why it took so long to finish this, and even longer to want to start it...

 

1 hour ago, Smeltington said:

Wonderful! Thanks for this! You managed to organize this well, so that it looks as simplified as possible for such a complicated score.

 

Thanks!  The epiphany I had was the separate tabs.  Originally I had one tab with everything and it was nuts.  Breaking out the BMI list to a separate tab was the first smart idea I had, and then adding the LTP into that made sense as it was interesting enough info to have and lined up exactly with the BMI list for the most part.

Then the next epiphany was having a tab that just simply says what's in each LLL track without bringing in all the other minutiae about what might exist that isn't on it.  Relegating all that info to a third tab really made everything come together nicely.

 

I just realized I didn't really include a timestamped OST breakdown anywhere... but I guess there's really no mysteries about that album at all right?

[bollemanneke 3,334]

Updating the cue names of my edit now. Great work.

 

But are you sure about those befriending the Hippogriff timings? Because I seem to recall you said in the past that the bonding cue actually started at 1:19 of the LLL track.

 

Also, how come you chose not to include a C&C tab? Not that I need one, just wondering.

[TSMefford 1,509]

YES! Can't wait to pour over this. So much information! All in one place!

[Jay 37,249]

41 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Updating the cue names of my edit now. Great work.

 

But are you sure about those befriending the Hippogriff timings? Because I seem to recall you said in the past that the bonding cue actually started at 1:19 of the LLL track.

 

1:19 is correct!  I dunno how 1:09 got into this doc instead.  I fixed it up, thanks!

 

Quote

Also, how come you chose not to include a C&C tab? Not that I need one, just wondering.

 

I think with a score like this, "chronological" is in the eye of the beholder.  With each cue that has multiple versions, each person might have a different opinion on which version should go in a main program vs which is thought of as a bonus.  Some people want source music in the main program, some want it as a bonus.  Some people want mockups, some people don't. And then there's also the revisions that are actually inserts meant to replace only a portion of an original cue, in which case some people would want only the original in the main and the insert on its own in the bonus, some people would edit the insert into the cue for the main and present the entire cue again without the insert as a bonus, etc....

 

Maybe I could provide a suggested editing guide, but it's the kind of score where there's no definitive version of it, really.

[bollemanneke 3,334]

Yes, I have to agree. Although I suppose you could say a definitive version is everything the film uses in film order.

 

Question: You mention 4m10A as the second Winter's Spell. Are you saying this is actually a separate recording that MM got? I could swear it sounded different in the movie that next time, but thought it was the sound editing guys again. With that discovery, the missing shawm and finger alternate and the bats extension glitch, I say we need a new pressing.

[Jay 37,249]

10 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Yes, I have to agree. Although I suppose you could say a definitive version is everything the film uses in film order.

 

Isn't that what the BMI tab shows? Or are you talking about all the tracking they did too? If so I have no interest is figuring out and notating down tracking info

 

Quote

Question: You mention 4m10A as the second Winter's Spell. Are you saying this is actually a separate recording that MM got?

 

No, not at all! There's only the one recording. It was just used twice, because the carolers are shown onscreen twice. 

 

Quote

I could swear it sounded different in the movie that next time, but thought it was the sound editing guys again.

 

Sounds the same to me >shrug<