Harry Potter 7CD Collection - MUSIC discussion

[bollemanneke 3,337]

If only those guys would be a little more creative online.

[Once 604]

Maybe much of the confusion is linked to Williams initially scoring a wrong cut of the film? Since it only became apparent during the actual recording of the score, I'm sure Williams and everybody else had to work like lightning figuring out what to do, perhaps resulting in some weird titles for the rewrites? 

 

Unfortunately I can't find the original link about it, but I know I've posted it before.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

On 4/4/2021 at 4:09 PM, bollemanneke said:

Completely pointless post. I finished watching HP2 and just wanted to repeat how awesome these scores are. Now, more than ever, I'm wondering what a POA score for Columbus would have sounded like. It's so sad all the thematic development stops here.

It would have been a bit more original than CoS due to the free schedule but still be far less than the Cuaron score.

There would've probably been concert arrangement style themes for Sirius Black and the Dementors (who would've looked more like the standard "flying ringwraiths" design of the books)

[Richard Penna 3,670]

Isn't Sirius' theme more of a motif? I struggle a bit to see a full concert piece coming out of that.

[Faleel 5,336]

39 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Isn't Sirius' theme more of a motif? I struggle a bit to see a full concert piece coming out of that.

I think he is saying that there would be a totally different theme if it was a Columbus film, that would get a concert arrangement.

[redishere 697]

On 4/4/2021 at 11:17 PM, Datameister said:

Incidentally, for anyone here who enjoys the films' production design, I've been working on a 3D model that explores the changing designs of Hogwarts. Feel free to check out my blog if you're interested: https://hogwarts4d.home.blog

 

That's so cool! I will definitely dive into your blog, since I'm both a rookie Blender user and hopelessly obsessing over the changing designs of Hogwarts in the movies. Thanks for that!

[Smeltington 1,436]

I enjoyed reading over the blog too, @Datameister. And it just so happens I use Blender as well  

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

I was just thinking - one of the reasons, Azkaban score is not very popular for concert performances (is it?) is because of an obvious piece to play at concerts.

 

There are two de facto concert suites on the album for the two main themes but both pose problems - Double Trouble requires a choir and Window to the Past is choppy as it is not a true concert suite but assembled from different pieces.

 

But guess what there was the perfect opportunity for a superb concert suite - 

 

Title it "Themes from Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" 

 

And make it the suite from 49 secs to 4:40 in the end credits track below. And that way you have a perfect concert suite - 

 

1. 3 mins 50 seconds - so perfect length for a concert performance

2. have a concert beginning (with a little taste of Hedwig so people know its HP)

3. have a concert ending

4. Be a very good recapitulation of both the main themes (infact the best exploration of the double trouble theme)

 

Bang! You have a very popular piece which would be a fan favorite and would be played at concerts all the time. As it stands Mischief Managed is a botched copy paste job and it unplayable because its 12 mins and is very obviously a cut paste piece so doesn't really flow.

 

 

[Smeltington 1,436]

That would be fantastic. Agreed that Azkaban needs to be performed more. It was one of the best LTPs ever!

[Jay 37,285]

Yea it was probably my favorite LTP concert

[InTheCity 140]

I'm late to this party - any info when this is back in stock?

 

[crumbs 14,300]

It returned just a few weeks back and sold out in a few days. They expect more stock in a couple of months IIRC (but I'd be surprised if it arrived before Q4).

[bollemanneke 3,337]

6 hours ago, Jay said:

Yea it was probably my favorite LTP concert

Wish I could go to one, here they're rebooting the LTP series after HP2 was a complete failure and in England they're now doing HP5. Nobody needs that.

[Jay 37,285]

10 hours ago, InTheCity said:

I'm late to this party - any info when this is back in stock?

 

 

It just came back into stock 2 months ago, on February 2nd, which came with this big notice on their home page

 

Quote

500 units of HARRY POTTER – THE JOHN WILLIAMS COLLECTION (7-CD BOX SET) is coming back in stock and will ship out later this month. Order yours now!

 

By February 7th, those 500 were all sold, and the title is now "Temporarily Out of Stock" until the final batch arrives.

 

As for when that batch could arrive, on that same day, MV posted this:

 

Quote

If all goes well that 2020 backlog of delayed projects will be unclogged soon and a wealth of top titles will be seeing the light of day soon.

 

In the meantime we will do our damnedest to get more Harry Potter sets produced. It's not sold out. I repeat ITS NOT SOLD OUT...just OUT OF STOCK. Its just a pricey endeavor to make the packaging and manufacture the 7 cds at a third party finished goods rate, but we should have some more in stock by Summer.

 

I think Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea 4 cd set is getting low though and that WILL BE SOLD OUT once they are gone, so if you want one, now is the time to buy.

 

There is a slight delay on The World is Not Enough. The plant can't seem to find the paper so we are having more printed up now. Look for that to start shipping by months end. Same with Romancing the Stone and Invaders...delays on those have to deal with an industry wide short supply of poly-carbonate materials at the cd plant for the moment.

 

We hope to have some new releases first week or two of March. After that, fingers crossed, a great flood shall wash upon the soundtrack marketplace unlike ever before...at least for a period of time. 

 

MV

 

[Richard Penna 3,670]

19 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Title it "Themes from Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban" 

 

And make it the suite from 49 secs to 4:40 in the end credits track below. And that way you have a perfect concert suite - 

 

Good idea - but once change is that I'd add Buckbeak's Flight to the end, just after the WttP crescendo - it provides the uplifting home run, just like Hedwig's Theme does. I mean, the ending isn't as strong, but you can't have everything for a suite that's not custom-composed.

[Holko 9,499]

HP1 is so chock full of JW's magical inspiration and gives him a ton of opportunities with all the new things that are introduced - even the climax after a complex multitheme score with lots of standalone pieces sprinkled in and before the climax wraps all those motifs up perfectly, is a series of different trials with different moods so he can flex his solo instrument writing, weird, not exactly atonal aleatoric and athematic but definitely more modern feeling writing, etherial voices and a happy perky action cue, dark tones, a militaristic action setpiece and a heroic sacrifice.  He loved the material so much and wanted to write much much more so much that it even overflowed into trailer cues and a whole damn Children's Suite.

 

So it's weird that he feels a bit less inspired by HP2. Or rather, the movie itself doesn't give him as much space to be inspired - barely and HP1 material gets true meaningful development in it, and even when he introduces many lovely new motifs they don't get many appearances or development. Myrtle, the spiders, Dobby, Fawkes, Lockhart - only the Chamber theme really has space to grow and live, but even that's cut short by the reusage of the Three Note Loop in many places, and the frankly baffling lack of its usage in the Basilisk fight, you know, inside the Chamber the theme represents. That cue only being a great but generic 2000s JW action cue is one of the most disappointing aspects to me. So JW channeled 3 of these ideas into his concert pieces instead and holy moly! In my preferred order of the CoS Suite: Dobby the House Elf is filled with the little fanboy's nervous energy. As the piece goes on, the eventual unassuming cuteness develops into bigger and bigger, more and more severe chaos and loudness in both the bridges and theme statements with some probably intentionally offputting chords, perfectly illustrating his ever more paradoxically dangerous attempts to keep Harry safe, but never losing sight of the heart behind them. The Chamber of Secrets is the Basilisk fight that wasn't to be: while the score statements are mostly slowly creeping in, this more formal presentation of the A and B themes is energetically threatening right off the bat, though it still has space to grow from  low introduction into bombastic action. And Fawkes the Phoenix, of course, allows the titular bird to finally soar freely (the bridges, while allowing it to climb higher and higher, still adding some kookiness to its character, being a magical bird who sets on fire and is reborn), something the score only permits for 1.5 of the 5 times it appears.

 

And then Azkaban is just the embodiment of inspiration from start to finish.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Isn't 2 just a little unfocused because of his lack of time?

[Jurassic Shark 12,027]

It's unfocused because Bill composed everything.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

And also conducted everything, which made the LSO do a fantastic job.

[bored 306]

Honestly, when it comes to JW sequel scores, I'll take a Chamber of Secrets over a Prisoner of Azkaban any day. Sure Prisoner of Azkaban is technically better, more inspired, and more original, but Chamber of Secrets at least feels like it belongs in the same musical landscape as the first film. Plus I'll take thematic development over technical achievement any day. 

 

I would have agreed and liked Prisoner of Azkaban better, if Williams hadn't dropped virtually every theme that had been developed in the first 2 films. The new themes are great and all, but the loss of the friendship, family, and Voldemort themes especially, really cripple a lot of my investment in that score. I also have to retroactively blame Williams, or the director for starting that trend in the Potter films of abandoning most of the pre-established material, which is partially what led to such emotionally devoid and mostly lame sequel scores. 

 

Plus there's a lot of inspired original material and development that is often ignored in Chamber. I love Williams cementing the Ron / Weasley theme, especially in "Letters from Hogwarts", there's a great new theme for the flying car, which also hosts several well-placed friendship theme reprises. The 3-note motif becomes more distinct and thoroughly developed (besides the temp-tracks which I admit are disappointing), which I always loved, since I always thought of that theme as representing Harry and Voldemort's rivalry more than anything anyway, especially considering its first appearance is when Harry gets his fortune left by his murdered parents, before the Stone is shown. Plus there's that wonderful allusion to the Hogwarts Forever theme when Gryffindor's sword appears. 

 

Yes the Attack of the Clones references are disappointing, but then there's little touches like the Wand of Phoenix theme being used when Hermione is petrified, subtly hinting at Voldemort being the culprit, or Gilderoy Lockhart's theme being a spin-off of Hedwig's / Magic theme, as a way of characterizing an arrogant wizard. Plus I love the one-off themes like Hermione's in "Hermione and The Mudbloods" (which has elements of the family theme), that are great set-ups to be used in future films.

 

A lot of this might seems unimportant, but all of these details helped build the world of the series, as well as the sound of the music. Disregarding all of this for new and creative music, that only has a few tangential relations to the first films' music always rubbed me the wrong way. It's like if in Return of the Jedi, Williams or the director just said: "Ah fuck it. Let's just have a completely different sound to the music in this one, and only keep Luke's theme and the Rebellion theme." I know Double Trouble and Pettigrew's theme have ties to the Nimbus 2000 / Mischief theme, and that's great, but there's not much else in the score like this, that ties it into the last 2 films smoothly. 

 

I agree that it would have been nice to see the themes that got concert suites developed and used more often, but I do like the way they are developed already as well. I like that Dobby's theme is more subtle and unsettling in the score until his freedom where it gets a grander, and heartwarming treatment. Fawkes isn't in much of the movie so I think the more obvious, and straightforward uses make sense to make it more memorable. I also don't personally see the dislike of the use of Myrtle and Lockhart's themes. They were used in traditional Williams fashion in their relevant scenes, (Lockhart's theme doesn't really fit when he's being forced into the Chamber to me), and Myrtle's theme is especially well developed considering her low screen time. It even has a wonderful hybrid variation with Hedwig's theme in "Myrtle's Tale". 

 

I agree that the Chamber theme was used well, but I don't know if I think it should have been used with the Basilisk. Sure it would have been great to get the bombastic rendition heard in the suite, but I also like the idea that it's used as an ever looming threat of what could be, and when it's revealed that Voldemort is the cause, it's only Voldemort material used for the Chamber onwards. Yes, I count the temp tracking of "The Face of Voldemort" because the theme is still in the movie, and Voldemort therefore still has his original thematic material. I think if Williams had more time, he probably would have composed new variations of Voldemort's main 2 themes anyway for those scenes. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I love Prisoner of Azkaban's score, but I do think its originality is a detriment as much as it is a benefit. It keeps some elements of the sound of the first 2 scores, but the lack of retained themes, and building on what came before really makes it feel more like a black sheep that doesn't belong more than anything. A very smart, and a fine specimen of a black sheep, but a black sheep nonetheless. P.S. Apologies for the essay, I might have gone too far in a few places. 

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

8 minutes ago, superultramegaa said:

I might have gone too far in a few places. 

 

Bill Ross is the key to all this, if we get Bill Ross working. Cause he's a funnier character than we've ever had in the movies.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

13 minutes ago, superultramegaa said:

Gilderoy Lockhart's theme being a spin-off of Hedwig's / Magic theme, as a way of characterizing arrogant wizards.

What?!

[bored 306]

4 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

What?!

Source:

 

 

[Faleel 5,336]

Williams and Cusron definitely weren't  the first to drop pre-established material.

[mrbellamy 6,272]

I think the amount of references to the first score in COS could have been subtracted by like 25%. I do appreciate how much mileage he got out of Hedwig's Theme for motivic/thematic associations in both films, not even necessarily because of specific textual meaning which I think gets stretched a bit far by those who love analysis more than I, but just for its own sake it's delightful. A quote like "Wand of the Phoenix" for Hermione's petrification, though, is neither here nor there to me, and a straight rip like "Cornish Pixies" is just distracting. I think there's a very fine line between establishing a musical world and just recycling it and Chamber wobbles on that tightrope a handful of times.

 

The Azkaban issue, I always just feel like there's no way to know how that score would have fit within eight HP scores by John Williams. The main thing is there's no Voldemort so I can't imagine JW wouldn't have brought his material back in 4. Plus things like Myrtle, and I'm sure we all hoped the Past theme would become part of the heart of the series alongside the family/friendship themes, instead of just the heart of one installment. It would just depend how he moved forward with his approach. Maybe he would have eventually landed on a revised Harry Potter voice by the end that merged some of those medieval colors in with those original themes and made it feel like less of an anomaly and more like a detour relevant to those first two. Or maybe it would have remained the weird one while 1-2 felt unified with 4-8. Or maybe we'd still be lamenting that he and the directors continued to forget all about the first scores. No idea.

[Holko 9,499]

A lot of the dropped themes feel pretty childish, which fit with the first 2 films but would have been more and more out of place as the series went darker and darker.

[bored 306]

4 minutes ago, Holko said:

A lot of the dropped themes feel pretty childish, which fit with the first 2 films but would have been more and more out of place as the series went darker and darker.

I don't know. Potter Scoring Project is doing a pretty good job of it. Plus he could always do what he did with The Force theme in Revenge of the Sith and distort the themes in different situations. Hell if you really think some of the themes wouldn't work in the form they're in now, he could always turn them into a minor key. 

[mrbellamy 6,272]

All the incidental stuff, I really didn't miss. But I think there would have been places for plenty over the course of the films like family, friendship, Voldy, Hogwarts, Myrtle, Fawkes, Dobby. The point being they didn't need to all be mushed into every movie but scattered throughout the films meaningfully with each score focusing on its own new identity primarily, it could have given a nice strong feeling of cohesive world-building. So that by the time "Leaving Hogwarts" shows up in 8 it's more than just that old cue out of the attic, it's been on the journey. That would have been the ideal for me and why it could get so frustrating every year because I was only ever looking for a few minutes' worth of the old shit. Obviously I understand Doyle, Hooper, Desplat had other negotiations to be concerned with in composing those scores, it was probably plenty enough for them in those months to make sure Hedwig's Theme was well represented along with everything else on their plate, but didn't make it less annoying when all you want is that extra inch.

 

I also always just thought the "childish" thing was a dumb apology for losing the Williams stuff because yes, melodies are easily transformed and also the "dark" sequels are packed with silly comical magical music and sentimental themes anyway so...

 

It's not really hard to imagine Williams' friendship theme plopped somewhere into this cue

 

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

@superultramegaa Nice obervation, far-fetched conclusion.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I love the wand theme reprise in Petrified Hermione. It works, doesn't have to be thematically logical at all. If you overthink themes too much, you get The Hobbit.

[Faleel 5,336]

Eh.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Well it is: fussy Bilbo, sneaky Bilbo... and at the end of the day, the finale leaves you completely unsatisfied, but oh right, they crossed the misty mountains, so you can't have the best theme of the entire trilogy anymore!

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Sorry to bump this thread again, but I just finished HP1 and 2 again and my admiration for these scores is growing even more. 1 especially is a masterpiece, but I just wanted to share these two observations:

1. I don't understand why Columbus ended up replacing Lonely First Night. The cue really works very well in the intended scene, just take away the fanfare. Leaving Hogwarts is way too 'fulfilled'.

2. I just LOVE the emotional moment at 5:06 in The Face of Voldemort. No idea why this passage suddenly got to me the way it did.

[Jay 37,285]

There's no reason to be sorry about posting in a thread.  That's what they're here for.

 

I like Lonely First Night a lot too!

[bored 306]

5 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

2. I just LOVE the emotional moment at 5:06 in The Face of Voldemort. No idea why this passage suddenly got to me the way it did.

 

Same here. I think that's actually a variant on the ending of the family theme (0:23 of Leaving Hogwarts) which is partially why it's so emotional. The John Williams trilogy of HP scores are so close to being my favorite trilogy from him. If Prisoner of Azkaban had just one reference each to themes like family, friendship, and the 3-note motif, and if Chamber of Secrets had a little less temp tracking, it would be the best, easily for me. 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I'm actually just listening to HP3 and although Mike's presentation is really, really growing on me, I have to say I like the score a lot less at the moment. Individual cues still stand out, of course, but it's just a really incoherent score. HP1, on the other hand, is perfect. It transports me back to my childhood every single time, even though I only became aware of film music because of HP4.

[Richard Penna 3,670]

I've never listened to 2 or 3 in any quantity - they're fantastic for individual set pieces and moments but they don't have the consistency in style and tone that the first score has.

 

The same sort of goes for LotR as well - I have listened to the FotR CR during a car journey, but I'm not sure TTT/RotK would work as well.

[blondheim 1,157]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

The same sort of goes for LotR as well - I have listened to the FotR CR during a car journey, but I'm not sure TTT/RotK would work as well.

 

I can verify that they do.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

You'd have to plan a huge car journey for ROTK though.

[blondheim 1,157]

Just now, bollemanneke said:

You'd have to plan a huge car journey for ROTK though.

 

I just pick up where I leave off when I back get in the car. That's how I learn long scores.

[bored 306]

What style changes happen in LOTR 2 and 3? It all seems pretty cohesive and on point to me. Now you want to say The Hobbit and LOTR have significant differences, that I understand. 

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

12 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Sorry to bump this thread again, but I just finished HP1 and 2 again and my admiration for these scores is growing even more. 1 especially is a masterpiece, but I just wanted to share these two observations:

1. I don't understand why Columbus ended up replacing Lonely First Night. The cue really works very well in the intended scene, just take away the fanfare. Leaving Hogwarts is way too 'fulfilled'.

I prefer the tracking there.  The brass chorale Hogwarts Forever is a bit too "odd" (a bit like the unused statement from Hagrid Breaks the Door)

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Agreed, but the rest of the cue is arguably better.

[Richard Penna 3,670]

I listened to that cue again and I'd disagree there. Aside from the fanfare (which I think we've agreed is wrong for the scene), the material before it strikes me as more out of the children's suite, and just meanders a bit for me.

 

I've said this before, but I think this score represents what good tracking can do to a film - I reckon that even if you took the music stem, and without knowing the score like we do, you'd be hard-pressed to identify any moments that were tracked.

[blondheim 1,157]

Which cues on Chamber have the Nimbus 2000 material? Obviously Escape From the Dursleys but I am not all that familiar with this complete score presentation and am curious where else

[Holko 9,499]

Quidditch, Second Year! And also some comedic renditions in Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle / Polyjuice Potion. I think that's about it?

[blondheim 1,157]

10 minutes ago, Holko said:

Quidditch, Second Year! And also some comedic renditions in Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle / Polyjuice Potion. I think that's about it?

 

I'm talking about the gorgeous soaring bridge, not the more mischievous material.

 

I have no idea why this theme wasn't utilized more. One of my favorite Williams themes. The bridge of Battle of Heroes didn't get used enough either.

 

I feel like when you build such a solid bridge, you should get some use out of it.

[Holko 9,499]

Ah. Well, the movies don't have many bridge shots until that scene in Azkaban 

But yeah, it is pretty damn underutilised. Mr. Longbottom Flies, Escape from he Dursleys, The Firebolt? Is that is?

[mrbellamy 6,272]

I think that's it, yeah.

 

It was always my favorite too, beautiful and as a kid I always thought kinda badass too. It really sells the drama of that Harry vs Draco confrontation and the victory as he descends to the crowd with the Remembrall.

 

I wonder if Williams composed it for that scene first and then saw fit to incorporate it into Hedwig's Theme later on, or if it was the reverse where he thought of it musically first in relation to Hedwig's Theme and then he found a place for it dramatically. Might be the former since I think his concert arrangements usually come later as he's naturally prioritizing the film work but those process questions are interesting. I wonder if he even remembers anymore.

[blondheim 1,157]

I completely agree! I used to conduct the shit out of that piece in my bedroom. I was the guy at the beginning of Moulin Rouge.

 

I remember I was even more frustrated when Prisoner came out and Mischief Managed only had that tiiiiiny little piece of it.

 

Well, at least it's an interesting new arrangement of it in Escape from the Dursleys at least. I guess it'll be the Dragon Racing of Chamber of Secrets. That's cool, I guess.