Harry Potter 7CD Collection - MUSIC discussion

[Jay 37,287]

The Moaning Myrtle and Gilderoy Lockhart music on the OST is pretty essential too.  I don't feel that Gilderoy's material is all THAT similar to No Ticket as people like to say, personally

[Richard Penna 3,671]

Ah yes, forgot about Myrtle - yep, that's some nice original stuff too.

 

Gilderoy's material is okay; I agree it's hardly a carbon copy of No Ticket, and the rhythm for the actual dueling part is nice. Just far from a highlight, I think.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Back in the day, we were watching last crusade with some friends, and at the no ticket scene, one that is a huge  hp fan but not a film score or williams fan said “hey thats gilderoy lockarts music”….

[Jay 37,287]

Yea I was thinking more of The Dueling Club track, which would make my personal OST for sure

[Datameister 2,037]

Yeah, the Goat Bait/Eye to Eye rip in that track is far more direct than Lockhart's theme, which is "just" very much in the same vein as No Ticket.

[Jay 37,287]

Huh, why am I drawing a blank on what music you're referring to?

[redishere 697]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Back in the day, we were watching last crusade with some friends, and at the no ticket scene, one that is a huge  hp fan but not a film score or williams fan said “hey thats gilderoy lockarts music”….

 

I misread "one that is a huge hip hop fan", and for some reason that made me laugh like a moron.

 

1 hour ago, Datameister said:

Yeah, the Goat Bait/Eye to Eye rip in that track is far more direct than Lockhart's theme, which is "just" very much in the same vein as No Ticket.

 

57 minutes ago, Jay said:

Huh, why am I drawing a blank on what music you're referring to?

I think it's the part in which Harry speaks Parseltongue and everyone thinks he's telling the snake to hurt Justin Finch-Fletchley: the underscore is a lot similar to the JP unused Goat Bait cue!

[Jay 37,287]

Oooh I'm gonna compare those two shortly

[Datameister 2,037]

It's virtually note for note - more so than the AOTC speeder chase.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Its unused music, no? So its like new music for people who do not have the JP scores…

[Richard Penna 3,671]

I just compared them - that's nearly as blatant as the Qudditch lift.

 

Man, why couldn't Ross just have composed a few bits himself.

[Taikomochi 1,136]

It is pretty blatant but I feel like it’s a gesture that Williams uses a lot or things close to it. I’m not convinced it was directly lifted vs. Williams wrote it in a crunch. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

10 minutes ago, Taikomochi said:

I’m not convinced it was directly lifted vs. Williams wrote it in a crunch. 

 

Both are very possible.  Lest we forget "Finn's Confession."

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Um.. i hear more last crusade. (catacombs maybe?)

 

The resemblance is not striking...otherwise it would be more common to speak about it...and i think it is the 1st time i had it seen mentioned.

 

 

Can we agree that Williams worse case was photocopying pages in The Lost World?

[Taikomochi 1,136]

At least that’s only like 3 minutes of the score as opposed to a third of it

[redishere 697]

Gotta love this "prequel" to HP2 Follow the Spiders, though (1:44)
 

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Nice find!

[Jay 37,287]

Tidbit from Mike:

 

 

Quote

Quote

Just curious if these two films share the same score or if there are differences between the two? The actual films only have some slight differences, if I'm not mistaken, mostly when the title stone is mentioned. Am I right?

 

What's stupid is that the "philosophers' stone" is a known legendary artifact. There was even an Indiana Jones novel with the title. Heaven forbid we actually teach American children something.

 

My CD and video discs are all from Canada, where it is "Philosophers' Stone." And yes, the only changes are four (I think) lines where the dialogue is adjusted, two of which are different takes while the other two are voiceovers. There are no musical differences.

 

For the Harry Potter Wiliams soundtrack collection, I actually wanted to pursue using the original title for the first score, since a decent amount of the soundtrack market is outside the U.S.. La-La Land felt that would have caused a delay legally, but my inquiries about it suggested that it would not. Then when I met with Blair Partnership about the project they told me they had been exploring the idea of re-publishing the novel in the U.S. under its original title for the 20th anniversary in 2017, and that Warner Bros. had even been on board with doing it with the film. But at the least minute they decided to leave things as they are.

 

https://filmscoremonthly.com/board/posts.cfm?threadID=146430&forumID=1&archive=0

[TSMefford 1,509]

The Sorcerer's vs Philosopher's Stone thing is one of the silliest and most unnecessary things. 

[Edmilson 7,392]

On 14/11/2021 at 3:25 PM, stravinsky said:

I'm currently listening to The Chamber of Secrets. Namely the breathtaking cue "Quidditch Second Year". I know its probably old hat to ask this but what is the consensus now on William Ross' input? To me all of the music sounds completely 100% Williams. Was Williams just being his usual non assuming self in granting Ross a higher status than mere orchestrator? Or did Ross actually COMPOSE? 

I'm a little late for the party, but I really don't believe William Ross looked at the sheets for Attack of the Clones (a movie he did not work in) and thought "you know, this Zam cue here would be really cool for the Quidditch scene!".

 

The controversial cue in question (4M1 Pt. 3 Chasing the Snitch) is not just a Zam re-use, there's some other stuff there too that Ross couldn't have composed for himself, I think. IF this cue is just a AOTC adaptation, where did all the non-Zam parts of the cue came from?

 

Here's what I think: for the Quidditch scene, Williams, Columbus and Ross decided that most of it would be scored with music from HP1, except for a crucial scene where Harry and Draco go beneath the stadium to chase the snitch. For this scene, Williams decided to write a brand new small cue, probably against Ross' wishes (remember the whole story about Ross calling the police to take JW's pen away, or something like that?).

 

However, Williams' time was indeed short, so he decided to re-use the Zam material as the starting point for the new Quidditch cue. It was a James Horner-style of appropriation. And it wasn't the first time Williams acted like Horner and re-used stuff.

 

If my theory is correct, the cues for Quidditch, Second Year would be like:

 

4M1 Pt. 1 Quidditch Stadium - Ross adapting HP1 Quidditch music

4M1 Pt. 2 Bludger Attack - Ross adapting HP1 Quidditch music

4M1 Pt. 3 Chasing the Snitch - written by JW, contains a quote of the Zam music from SW2

4M1 Pt. 4 Harry Chases the Snitch - Ross adapting HP1 Quidditch music

[bored 306]

Another reason I can't get too mad at the Chasing the Snitch cue is that Williams also subtly added a quote from the Wand of the Phoenix theme after Draco falls off his broom. Of course it would be nice if the whole cue was original material (I always liked the idea of an action version of Dobby's theme replacing the Attack of the Clones reference), but that little addition at least gives that cue more meaning than just a temp track / repurpose. 

[Holko 9,499]

5 hours ago, TSMefford said:

The Sorcerer's vs Philosopher's Stone thing is one of the silliest and most unnecessary things. 

Agreed, as in, the reason for it existing, the change of title in the first place, is one of the silliest and most unnecessary things.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Interesting that scholastic and WB were going to revert to the original title but didnt had the balls in the end…

[TSMefford 1,509]

7 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Interesting that scholastic and WB were going to revert to the original title but didnt had the balls in the end…

 

It shouldn't even take balls. It's the original title. Studios are always so damn scared over the smallest thing.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I've been listening to HP3 and just wondered: do we know for a fact that the entire Double Trouble cue to be played in the film? Can't it just be a track created for the album too? I'm asking because I can't imagine a version of the movie in which Double Trouble just starts and plays entirely.

[TSMefford 1,509]

They could've asked for him to write a whole song for the shoot and indeed shot enough footage to cover the entire song. This way they could have flexibility to use what they wanted later.

[Jay 37,287]

It was recorded to be used in the film however the director wanted, like any other cue. It got shortened in the final edit like most cues. 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Oh, and spekaing of Double Trouble, shouldn't it technically be in the source music section of the spreadsheet? Or is it considered main score because JW wanted it on the OST?

[Jay 37,287]

I think it blurs the line between source music and scoring.  From a listening standpoint, you certainly want the theme introduced this way in the score proper, and not only exist as a bonus track

 

Personally I like the shorter version with the new opening properly flowing into it in the main program, and the full untouched recording as a bonus track

[Holko 9,499]

8 minutes ago, Jay said:

you certainly want the theme introduced this way in the score proper

Train to Hogwarts

 

8 minutes ago, Jay said:

Personally I like the shorter version with the new opening properly flowing into it in the main program, and the full untouched recording as a bonus track

same!

[Jay 37,287]

Of course I know it's introduced earlier, I mean you want this song (in either form) to appear in the main program to really properly introduce the theme - IMO.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Yeah, I still don't know how I feel about the song introducing the theme on the LLL. Sometimes I love it, sometimes my chronological OCD refuses to accept it.

[Jay 37,287]

Admittedly, sometimes I skip it!

[bored 306]

54 minutes ago, Jay said:

Admittedly, sometimes I skip it!

 

I used to, but one day for whatever reason, when I played it while driving, I got chills in the finale of the song (when it transitions to Flitwick's choir in the film), and every subsequent listen has had the same effect for me. There's not many pieces of music that can do that for me consistently, so safe to say I've grown to love it. 

[Jay 37,287]

That's cool

 

I think overall I liked the arrangement for the trailer better than the arrangement for the film

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Yeah, and the final concert arrangement is even worse.

[Datameister 2,037]

If you want a "best of both worlds" fix, Something Wicked Intro can actually segue nicely to the start of the full song. You just have to chop off the end of the intro, which obviously was written to overlap the middle of the song.

[Holko 9,499]

12 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Yeah, and the final concert arrangement is even worse.

I'm completely baffled why he keeps repeating the same verse. It works better vocalless.

[Jay 37,287]

Aye, that's what I was taking about when I said 

 

2 hours ago, Jay said:

the shorter version with the new opening properly flowing into it

 

[crumbs 14,301]

I just revisited Azkaban for the first time in months via my own edit (where I combined the Something Wicked Intro with the last part of the song, as heard in the film), yet I longed for Mike's LLL presentation. I'd also mixed the various pub source cues around the score proper and found that really irritating, so I'll be relegating those back to the bonus section.

 

I would've loved a "film version" of the intro + song with singing frogs. The film transition works seamlessly in a way that can't be replicated with the LLL; maybe it's the lack of rain/thunder/SFX, or the moody visuals, but something is unique to the mix of that film version.

 

And now, post-Fiddler, I'm curious if we'll ever hear Williams' original Double Trouble demo (recorded before production started and used on set for actors to mimic). Curious that the frog puppeteers were able to mimic their mouths in perfect sync with the music, if the croaking wasn't part of Williams' demo...?

 

Anyway, there's so many short cues in that section of the film, you could combine them in dozens of different ways. Find the one that works best for you!

[bollemanneke 3,337]

What's unique about the DT film version is that, when the second half of the song starts, that high recorder is dialed out. Sadly, we can't replicate that, only the isolated score contains that version, so Art of the Score podcast to the rescue.

 

As for the source music annoying... I LOVE, LOVE the pub cue!

[Holko 9,499]

20 minutes ago, crypto said:

Curious that the frog puppeteers were able to mimic their mouths in perfect sync with the music, if the croaking wasn't part of Williams' demo...?

Supposedly the frogs were CG. I always thought they were puppets too.

[crumbs 14,301]

31 minutes ago, Holko said:

Supposedly the frogs were CG. I always thought they were puppets too.

 

Unless they CGI'd them into publicity photos, the frogs were puppets:

 

But how did the puppeteers sync the frog mouths without croaking in the demo track? I'd be surprised if Williams wasn't aware of them, considering the frog puppets would've been planned in advance of shooting.

 

I do recall Mike saying he wanted to include a croaking version on the LLL but couldn't find it in WB's elements.

 

It's also unclear why Williams' original demo wasn't included on the LLL; it's even referenced in the liner notes.

 

43 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

What's unique about the DT film version is that, when the second half of the song starts, that high recorder is dialed out. Sadly, we can't replicate that, only the isolated score contains that version, so Art of the Score podcast to the rescue.

 

Yes, the AOTS podcast was a godsend in that respect! I knew I wasn't going crazy when I heard the clean isolated score; you simply cannot replicate the film version using the LLL (sadly).

 

I guess we can hope for an isolated score leak in the future, considering how much music remains exclusive to the film mix (whether Williams' intentions or not).

[TSMefford 1,509]

8 hours ago, crypto said:

I would've loved a "film version" of the intro + song with singing frogs.

 

I did one!

 

8 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

... that high recorder is dialed out. Sadly, we can't replicate that, only the isolated score contains that version, so Art of the Score podcast to the rescue.

 

I actually used the 5.1 surround mix from the credits appearance of the track and was able to replicate this without Art of the Score. The high recorder is only in the center channel. Mute the center channel and you've basically got that section how it appears during the transition. Although I believe there might be a bit of echo left over that I had to filter out.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Oh, that's right! I've never been able to edit surround sound myself. I'd be happy already if I found a program that could generate fake openings for recording session simulation purposes.

[TSMefford 1,509]

17 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Oh, that's right! I've never been able to edit surround sound myself. I'd be happy already if I found a program that could generate fake openings for recording session simulation purposes.

 

It comes in handy for some of these kinds of things!

 

As far as faked endings. I usually just do a combination of manual filtering and very well-tuned manual reverb plug-ins. It's not easy to match reverb manually, but I do my best. I'd love something that could do it automatically, but most things I've seen are a bit out of my price range. Maybe someday!

[Jay 37,287]

You're talking about faked endings, he mentioned faked openings

 

Similar, but different techniques needed!

[TSMefford 1,509]

21 minutes ago, Jay said:

You're talking about faked endings, he mentioned faked openings

 

Similar, but different techniques needed!

 

Ah I misread it as talking about both. Lol. "Faked openings and endings"

 

Faked openings are harder and very different for sure! Those can require some intricate filtering, signal reduction, I've even done noise matching on some of those too.

[Jay 37,287]

I can do an OK-ish faked ending with a bunch of fiddling around with reverb, but struggle very much with faked openings!

[TSMefford 1,509]

5 minutes ago, Jay said:

I can do an OK-ish faked ending with a bunch of fiddling around with reverb, but struggle very much with faked openings!

 

It's an artform! Lol