Harry Potter 7CD Collection - MUSIC discussion

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I’m old enough to remember when someone here was trying to argue that the Nimbus theme was actually a theme for Slytherin house because it scored the escaping snake in the opening scenes of PS, and its prevalence in the flying lesson/Quidditch scenes, plus Cakes for Crabbe and Goyle in CoS.
 

JWFans will fan.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Just so long as we've retired anyone calling it Hedwig B theme.   I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by Filmtracks!

[Richard Penna 3,667]

On 08/04/2022 at 9:41 AM, j39m said:

CoS is not my favorite of the three scores. William Ross's comments in the liner notes are enlightening, but the listening experience feels a bit like meager pickings after the feast of PS. The one knockout theme here (for me) is the Flying Car motif, which I'm still hung up on. Then again, I have to wonder how much of this opinion is biased by the general tone of the films (and the orchestration that follows).

 

I find that neither Cos nor PoA work completely for me as complete scores, for different reasons. Neither stop me having the full scores in my playlist, partly out of respect for the incredible job MMM and LLL did.

 

CoS has some outstanding highlights, which would work well as a 70 minute or so album. The complete score has too much recycled material to enjoy completely as it is.

 

PoA has the same attributes for me, but the bits I like less are mainly just due to the stylistic differences. Some of the action material with Lupin's transformation is a mess, the time-travel/Buckbeak material is a bit repetitive in full form for me. In general, the time-heavy nature of the score means that it doesn't feel like it has a proper, singular build-up and ending.

[bored 305]

5 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

In general, the time-heavy nature of the score means that it doesn't feel like it has a proper, singular build-up and ending.

 

The fact that Double Trouble never comes back (except for the end credits) after the middle of the film and score is utterly baffling to me. 

[Richard Penna 3,667]

Favourite random Potter musical moment: 6:40 onwards in the Quidditch Match. I love how the build-up starts with the wild strings then gradually the rising brass gains prominence and finally the motif at 7:02 signals the start of Harry's victory. I don't feel that he replicated this sort of orchestration again in the franchise many times, perhaps Buckbeak's Flight. I think that if ever there was an example of a composer having an absolute thrill writing a cue, this is a fine one.

[bollemanneke 3,334]

One day I'm gonna make my own HP3 OST and see what I can come up with for 70 minutes.

[j39m 75]

4 hours ago, Stu said:

anyone calling it Hedwig B theme.

 

I apologize for the gaffe, I'm not up to date on my reading

 

4 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

In general, the time-heavy nature of the score means that it doesn't feel like it has a proper, singular build-up and ending.

 

This is why I'm still extremely partial to the build-up and climax of PS culminating in The Face of Voldemort. It reads (and sounds) like a standard DnD campaign, but surprisingly the big bad demands a talk-heavy climax with brooding (rather than agitated) scoring.

 

3 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Favourite random Potter musical moment: 6:40 onwards.

 

Which score / track are you referring to? I'm not seeing it in your post.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

9 minutes ago, j39m said:

I apologize for the gaffe, I'm not up to date on my reading

 

It's all good.  I just thought of my dumb Ginsberg-Filmtracks joke and had to have a set-up for it.

[Richard Penna 3,667]

19 minutes ago, j39m said:

Which score / track are you referring to? I'm not seeing it in your post.

 

Oops, forgot to mention, The Quidditch Match.

[bollemanneke 3,334]

I'm just re-reading the HP1 liner notes and had another flash of realisation about this masterpiece. near the end of Checkmate, we hear the family theme. Incannus writes that it underscores Harry's friendship with R and H and the simple courage of this unlikely hero, but before I checked that part of his analysis, MM made me think: what if Williams was implying that Harry's missing/thinking of his parents right before he enters the final chamber? I find that idea very moving. Am I reading too much into this or is JW really such a genius?

 

Also, I've probably written this before, but I LOVE the strings right after the chess match is over. It's like they're trying to soothe someone's heartbeat, telling them that it's going to be all right.

[bored 305]

6 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

what if Williams was implying that Harry's missing/thinking of his parents right before he enters the final chamber? I find that idea very moving. Am I reading too much into this or is JW really such a genius?

 

I wouldn't be entirely surprised if that was the case, considering "Harry's Wondrous World" is used to underscore his friendships 90% of the the time. This would also explain its appearance when he visits petrified Hermione after his visit to Aragog, as it could be him thinking of his parents and how he almost lost Hermione just like he lost them.

 

Then again Hermione's theme in "Hermione and The Mudbloods" also seems to have elements of the family theme, so maybe John Williams also wanted Harry and her to get together just like JK Rowling did at one point? Otherwise, I'm not sure why he'd score Hermione in particular with the family theme so often. Hopefully it's not a case of "it just fit" much like Princess Leia's theme when Ben dies. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I think the most simple reading is that at this point in the film Ron and Hermione have become Harry's family, like Hogwarts has become his home. It's just a little precursor to Leaving Hogwarts which makes both of those things more explicit. But even more likely is that JW has always played fast and loose with his themes, he probably just thought it sounded good. If you start looking into his every choice like Mattris does you'll end up down a conspiracy rabbit hole.

 

43 minutes ago, superultramegaa said:

 

Then again Hermione's theme in "Hermione and The Mudbloods" also seems to have elements of the family theme, so maybe John Williams also wanted Harry and her to get together just like JK Rowling did at one point? Otherwise, I'm not sure why he'd score Hermione in particular with the family theme so often. Hopefully it's not a case of "it just fit" much like Princess Leia's theme when Ben dies. 

 

I very much doubt John Williams was thinking about which of these 11-year old characters were going to hook up when he wrote the score.

[bored 305]

10 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

I very much doubt John Williams was thinking about which of these 11-year old characters were going to hook up when he wrote the score.

 

I didn't mean exactly like that, I meant it might have been him attempting to plan for the future because not all of the books were released at this point, much like him hiding various themes in Rey's theme because he wasn't sure what her relation was to other characters. 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I will again say that I don’t think Williams writes scores like that. He does not watch these films thinking about what is going to happen, he writes for what is happening in the moment.
 

He did not hide anything in Rey’s theme. He simply used a melodic and harmonic vocabulary that is consistent with all of his Star Wars scores. Any resemblance to other leitmotifs is purely a result of that vocabulary, nothing more. 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

In the end, the artist's intention doesn't matter anyway.

[bored 305]

5 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

In the end, the artist's intention doesn't matter anyway.

 

You're right. Harry Potter is clearly about the inevitable heat death of the universe. Star Wars is about the life cycle of a tadpole, and Fifty Shades of Grey is really a commentary on China. These interpretations are as objectively valid as what the author actually intended, clearly!

[Brundlefly 2,385]

3 hours ago, superultramegaa said:

You're right. Harry Potter is clearly about the inevitable heat death of the universe. Star Wars is about the life cycle of a tadpole, and Fifty Shades of Grey is really a commentary on China. These interpretations are as objectively valid as what the author actually intended, clearly!

That is probably the most senseless post I've seen in a while.

 

I say: "The artist's intention doesn't matter."

You make it: "Every interpretation is objectively right."

 

I mean, what the fuck?!

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

10 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

In the end, the artist's intention doesn't matter anyway.

Depends on the context. If we’re talking about how effective or subjectively “good” the music is, you’re right that the artist’s intent doesn’t really matter.

 

But wild speculation about the process of art just feeds into the misinformation machine and distorts history. It might sound cool to imagine JW writing in a certain way but not if it obscures his actual process. To me it makes more sense to accept the simple fact that JW doesn’t use themes in a strict and empirical way, rather than to imagine he’s playing a complicated game of 5-dimensional chess to explain away thematic inconsistencies and “preserve” his genius. The latter is disconcerting to me, and as I mentioned earlier, resembles a conspiracy theory mindset.

 

 

[bollemanneke 3,334]

I think in this case both opinions are equally valid. It might just have been a case of 'well that theme works', which it does, or it might have been what I think it was, or Incannus.

[Brundlefly 2,385]

Maybe let's settle on the term that JW did it "intuitively" - which would mean that he in part makes unconciously intellectual decisions, when trying to find out what is appropriate to accompany a scene with and what is not.

 

8 hours ago, Docteur Qui said:

But wild speculation about the process of art just feeds into the misinformation machine and distorts history.

I get your point here, but again, I'm not inviting to wild interpretation with my statement. Every analysis and every interpretation should be grounded in a fair amount of objectivity and reasonability. My statement is just about the acception of the fact that the artist and his art have to be separated, because intention and result might very well be universes apart. It is always worth checking out what an artist has to say about his own art, but in the end it is the piece of art that needs to be explored - analysed - interpreted and it can turn out to go much deeper that the artist ever thought it would be.

[bored 305]

14 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

That is probably the most senseless post I've seen in a while.

 

I say: "The artist's intention doesn't matter."

You make it: "Every interpretation is objectively right."

 

I mean, what the fuck?!

 

If the artist's intention doesn't matter, then every interpretation is as equally valid, not objectively right. My post was bringing that line of thought to the inevitable end point of that line of thinking, which is anyone can impose any view they want on a piece of work, because interpretation is more important than the intention, as the intention does not matter.

 

If you didn't mean it that way then I retract my statement. I just take issue with the line of thinking that often ends up going in that direction, and it sounded like your post was hinting at that. 

[Chewy 2,372]

Just made an interesting discovery on The Patronus Light: the original recording seems to have been extended editiorally by looping several sections.

 

The full track as it is presented on the OST (and also on the LLL set) lasts 1 min 12. After removing the 3 loops I found, the length is reduced to 45 sec:

 

 

This makes it fit a bit more with Watching The Past (Finale on the OST), where that overlay actually plays. It still doesn't perfectly match though, those tracks contain edits and loops too, on both OST and LLL versions, that were made to sync the choir overlay better with the orchestra, I guess.

[Jay 37,271]

Nice discovery, Chewy!  That finally explains for me a minor thing I've always wondered about!

 

That's a shame the orchestral layer of the new ending to 7M4 is edited & looped on both releases.  Hopefully the proper elements are located one day and we get a new rebuild of everything!

 

 

[InTheCity 140]

I’m listening to some of these Azkaban tracks and I’m convinced some of it isn’t Williams 

[Jay 37,271]

Everything on the Azkaban discs was composed by Williams, except the opening of the Teaser and Trailer tracks

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Who did write the opening of the teaser, just out of curiosity? I ask because I understand that the score sheet music, orchestrated by Eddie Karam, includes that little introduction before Double Trouble begins (meaning that it was recorded and conducted by Williams). I recall it being discussed here but I couldn't remember the details.

[Jay 37,271]

On 08/04/2021 at 11:22 AM, Jay said:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R7JM5QmRNh6PbgqeBH_lbj2C3WLbzxz9px3Z7GKLaAk/

 

[Datameister 2,034]

Still does baffle me how it came about that JW had to start the cue with these fellas' four simple chords. (Of course, leave it to him to make them his own with those subtly haunting woodwind figures.)

[Jay 37,271]

Yea, like why in the world did he agree to re-record their composition instead of writing his own opening.  Baffling.

[ragoz350 450]

In the deeps of the thread TSMefford posted some interesting info here from the old Magic Box site: guys, who did the music for the trailers.

 

On 31/12/2018 at 11:56 AM, TSMefford said:

Hey everyone! I dug up some old info about the trailer music for Prisoner of Azkaban!

 

Here's a quote from the old old old Magic Box Music website. Magic Box Music is now one with Brand X Music. At the time, I believe this was just composers John Sponsler and Tom Gire. Here, specifically, they are referring to the Double Trouble teaser:

 

And the attached photo:

 

 

Quote

We were starting to feel like Potter was old hat by this point, until we heard that a John Williams “song” would be included in the trailer. After many attempts, the studio decided that John would score the trailer, but it would include an intro written by Magic Box, and re-recorded by John Williams as part of the trailer. So wait…. John Williams was going to be conducting and recording a piece that we had composed? Crazy! To top it all off, we were able to attend the session and watch him do it. A signed copy of the score hangs in our studio to this day. We went on to score several International spots for this film, one of which garnered a nomination for “Best Music” at the Golden Trailer Awards.

 

And another post from Datameister, with German trailer that apparently uses the original track.

On 31/12/2018 at 11:43 PM, Datameister said:

 

 

EDIT: Ha! Found it...sorta! I still seem to recall an audio file that was JUST that intro without Hedwig's theme, but better than nothing. (This can also be found as a MOV file on the Wayback Machine.)

 

 

 

[Brundlefly 2,385]

The trailer music of Azkaban is really a terrible closer for the bonus program. Hopefully, it won't make it onto a future release.

[crumbs 14,287]

11 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

The trailer music of Azkaban is really a terrible closer for the bonus program. Hopefully, it won't make it onto a future release.

 

Agreed – waste of space and poor album closer, especially when there was more Williams-composed music that went unreleased.

[Skelly 260]

3 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

The trailer music of Azkaban is really a terrible closer for the bonus program. Hopefully, it won't make it onto a future release.

 

3 hours ago, crumbs said:

Agreed – waste of space and poor album closer, especially when there was more Williams-composed music that went unreleased.

 

No fun allowed!

[HunterTech 982]

I'm just here wondering if a full clean copy of that international teaser trailer track exists, since searching up Brand X Music's Anticipation now only gets you the opening section (which makes me wonder if it is the exact version @Datameister was referring to):

 

[Richard Penna 3,667]

4 hours ago, crumbs said:

 

Agreed – waste of space and poor album closer, especially when there was more Williams-composed music that went unreleased.

 

  

4 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

The trailer music of Azkaban is really a terrible closer for the bonus program. Hopefully, it won't make it onto a future release.

 

I'm sorry (I've had a tiring weekend) but I'm going to go off on a minor one.

 

Firstly, bonus sections are not intended to play perfectly, but a place to put little obscurities and 'bits' that not everyone will want. It's exactly what this sort of track is intended for, right at the end, so you can decide wether it goes in your regular playlist or not.

 

And secondly, the mere notion that this track was a 'waste of space' when (a) there clearly wasn't loads of other Williams stuff they could easily (in terms of elements and JW approving it) put in the place of a 2 minute track, and (b) it's used in marketing materials for the film, is also ridiculous.

[HunterTech 982]

This is starting to feel like an indirect way of saying that JW has poor taste in album extras 

[Richard Penna 3,667]

It doesn't seem to me much different to the inclusion of stock music or some other 'thing' where people happened to like a piece that wasn't by the original composer.

 

The only difference is whether individual people like it. If you don't, you'll complain that it shouldn't be there. If you do, you'll decide it's a nice little inclusion.

[crumbs 14,287]

18 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

Firstly, bonus sections are not intended to play perfectly, but a place to put little obscurities and 'bits' that not everyone will want.

 

Hard disagree. Mike's bonus sections are carefully curated and serve as excellent standalone listening experiences in their own right.

 

To reduce it as little more than a collection of obscurities or "bits" is a great disservice to his efforts.

 

18 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

It's exactly what this sort of track is intended for, right at the end, so you can decide wether it goes in your regular playlist or not.

 

At the end of the day it's a track filled with music Williams didn't even compose, followed by a very poor-sounding version of music that already exists on another disc.

 

18 hours ago, Richard Penna said:

And secondly, the mere notion that this track was a 'waste of space' when (a) there clearly wasn't loads of other Williams stuff they could easily (in terms of elements and JW approving it) put in the place of a 2 minute track

 

And you know this how? None of us know exactly what materials Mike had access to, nor what was available but omitted (other than Shawm, PRESUMABLY at Williams' request).

 

All we really know is the analogue elements seemed to be misplaced and the digital masters weren't comprehensive.

[Jay 37,271]

5 minutes ago, crumbs said:

(other than Shawm, at Williams' request)

 

Source?

[crumbs 14,287]

7 minutes ago, Jay said:

Source?

 

According to someone involved in the set, it probably wasn't ever in the POA assembly (and they doubt Williams would have allowed it).

[Holko 9,491]

Ironic.

[Jay 37,271]

1 minute ago, crumbs said:

 

According to someone involved in the set, it was never in the POA assembly (and they doubt Williams would have allowed it).

 

That's the opposite of what you just said though; Your previous post implied the producer wanted to include it but the composer denied it.

[Chewy 2,372]

So the Shawm cue was never part of the assembly? Meaning JW never vetoed it? Huge news 

[Jay 37,271]

I think the only assembly made was approved with no changes

 

I have no idea if Williams would have approved Shawm being a part of it or not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[crumbs 14,287]

16 minutes ago, Jay said:

 

That's the opposite of what you just said though; Your previous post implied the producer wanted to include it but the composer denied it.

 

Yeah, because you told us as much:

 

On 27/05/2021 at 5:01 AM, Jay said:

In terms of JW and the source music he writes appearing on his albums... it depends!

 

Often when hearing the proposed new album JW might ask for some source music to be dropped; generally source music of a more dated styling gets axed, while source music or a more classical styling gets released. For some examples:

• Harry Potter 3 - the courtyard recorded source cue was included, along with A Winter's Spell and all 3 Dufay Ensemble pieces, but the shawm source cue was not

 

I've previously asked if it was ever in the assembly and that's when you said:

 

On 28/02/2019 at 8:48 AM, Jay said:

I don't think so.  I doubt Williams would have allowed it

 

Which, ironically, seems to imply the opposite of your other comment.

[Jay 37,271]

I do doubt he would have allowed it!

But I don't know if he would have or not.

 

I'm having lunch with Mike on Saturday, I can ask him if he ever talked to Jaime about Shawm or not!

[crumbs 14,287]

It's not a big deal. I'm more frustrated that WB lost the recording elements and made an expansion so challenging (and made film mixes impossible, without the multitracks). It's concerning not knowing what was actually recorded and potentially lost, without recording logs to verify anything. What was actually available but left unreleased is a separate discussion.

 

Also makes me wonder, if Williams didn't veto Shawm, whether it could show up as a bonus track on another Potter expansion? Like JW's Superman source music turning up on the sequel expansions.

[Jay 37,271]

5 minutes ago, crumbs said:

It's not a big deal.

 

I am amused by how much discussion Shawm has gotten since the set came out.  I don't think Mike and I said more than a sentence or two about it when working on the set!

 

5 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I'm more frustrated that WB lost the recording elements and made an expansion so challenging (and made film mixes impossible, without the multitracks).

 

Let's hope the 1st gen element simply wasn't located at the time, but is now located and perfectly preserved somewhere!

 

5 minutes ago, crumbs said:

It's concerning not knowing what was actually recorded and potentially lost, without recording logs to verify anything.

 

Yea

 

5 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Also makes me wonder, if Williams didn't veto Shawm, whether it could show up as a bonus track on another Potter expansion? Like JW's Superman source music turning up on the sequel expansions.

 

Good question; The question is where?  If LLL does HP4, for example, Doyle is alive, and would he want a JW composition on his new album?

For Superman II/III, Ken Thorne had already passed, and the scores were built around Williams' original compositions anyway, so it made more sense.

[Holko 9,491]

It'd make much more sense on a 3 disc redo from the multitracks with everything fixed, mixed and included.

[Jay 37,271]

Absolutely.