Harry Potter 7CD Collection - MUSIC discussion

[Manakin Skywalker 4,891]

We all know JW didn't willingly choose to score these fairytale films like Harry Potter and Star Wars. Obviously he was forced to by the government.

[Edmilson 7,436]

25 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I wonder if he would have kept recording in London all the way through to DH2?

 

I'm not sure. Mid 2000s Williams seemed to be happy between record the big fantasy stuff like Potter and SW on London and the Spielberg movies on the USA. So, imagining a parallel universe on which Batman Begins was so successful at the box office on 2005 that WB decided to postpone Goblet of Fire to July 2006 just for they to have a guarateed blockbuster on the following year (this actually happened, but with The Dark Knight and The Half Blood Prince), and thus freeing Williams to score the movie, I can imagine his hypothetical GoF score being recorded in London.

 

However, if he somehow remained on the series (David Yates, you fool, why don't you think like J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson?), he would have to score a Potter movie every year until 2011. So, maybe he would get tired to flying to London every year for a few weeks, and considering he wasn't exactly young even back then, maybe he would have decided to record the later films on LA too.

 

Of course, this would probably have annoyed the British Yates and Rowling... But, on this fanfic/alternate universe, they would have been so commited to have Williams scoring their movies that they wouldn't have minded!

[crumbs 14,306]

Without reading Mike's liner notes again, I'm not sure if Williams' decision to record Potter 1-3 in London was a producer/studio directive or simply convenient because he was already spending so much time in London doing Star Wars around the same time. My guess is a combination of both.

[Arpy 4,145]

44 minutes ago, Thekthithm said:

Seems wrong to demand Williams be continually tied to an endless stream of boring teen melodrama for five more movies. There's only so much of that crap a viewer can take, let alone one film composer who has to cook up new and original music for it every time. You people view Williams like he's your little plaything!

There are many moments, scenes, sequences that Williams would've enhanced ten times over had he been involved in the later films. Newell's insistence that he wanted something darker that Williams couldn't offer was ridiculous when the depths of Williams' darkest, most depraved music reaches into the void of your soul like no other composer can. Revenge of the Sith is where I find myself imagining, if Williams was given the chance, where the Potter scores could've gone - there's action, adventure, quiet, intimate pieces - Sith has it all!

[Montre 79]

I always think about what music would exist now had Williams stayed for all eight movies.

 

 

At least we have three amazing scores though. 

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

Based on the staggering quality of the work he delivered in the first 3 films, we would certainly have been in for something special had he done all.

 

But I agree, too much of a drain on an old man to write these massive scores every single year on a tight deadline and whatnot. 

 

Maybe if Williams was a younger man he could have made it work. But scoring a franchise of 8 films with basically a film every 15 months would be draining for anybody. Not for a rubbish half ass composer but for someone like Williams who is going to write an elaborate intricate complex score every time.

[Josh500 1,615]

2 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

But I agree, too much of a drain on an old man to write these massive scores every single year on a tight deadline and whatnot. 

 

Maybe if Williams was a younger man he could have made it work. But scoring a franchise of 8 films with basically a film every 15 months would be draining for anybody. Not for a rubbish half ass composer but for someone like Williams who is going to write an elaborate intricate complex score every time.

 

I know you probably do not mean to sound offensive, but you kinda do, certainly. 

 

No need to bring up "old man" or "even at his age" or "despite his advanced years" (or phrases to that effect) etc. every time something doesn't go 100% as expected or desired... We're talking about a man who wrote 4 incredibly demanding and complex scores in 2005, right after he finished with the HP series. So his "old age" very likely has no or very little bearing on this. He just wanted to do something else... 

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

He's just in it for the money anyway.

[Montre 79]

5 hours ago, Thekthithm said:

Seems wrong to demand Williams be continually tied to an endless stream of boring teen melodrama for five more movies. There's only so much of that crap a viewer can take, let alone one film composer who has to cook up new and original music for it every time. You people view Williams like he's your little plaything!

 

Who hurt you?

 

To my ears, Williams scored the Potter movies with a lot of enthusiasm, so I highly doubt he went into it with that attitude. Not to mention the children’s suite and quite numerous concert arrangements, which he definitely did not have to do. 

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

1 minute ago, Montre said:

Who hurt you?

 

Don't ask!

[Montre 79]

I retract my question!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Most of the Harry Potter sequels are wayyyyyy below John Williams anyway. I'm surprised he even bothered committing to 2 and 3.

[Holko 9,525]

Yeah I'm glad he didn't waste any time on Yates.

[Arpy 4,145]

According to JWFan, The Book Thief, The BFG and The Post are below Williams' talents.

41 minutes ago, Thekthithm said:

Most of the Harry Potter sequels are wayyyyyy below John Williams anyway. I'm surprised he even bothered committing to 2 and 3.

 

21 minutes ago, Holko said:

Yeah I'm glad he didn't waste any time on Yates.

Yates would only accept mock-ups on an ipod, Williams was already dissuaded.

[bollemanneke 3,342]

I, for one, am very glad he didn't score HP4. Doyle nailed the Yule Ball. 5 and 6 is another story, but then again, what would Yates have wanted JW to do if he was happy with Hooper?

[Arpy 4,145]

Yeah, that's the thing: Doyle, Hooper and Desplat weren't devoid of making some good pieces - and each score since Williams did follow the tone of the story well - it's just the feeling of knowing God was on earth at the same time and you can't book him for a gig.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Ehhh it's like lamenting Williams couldn't score a Divergent movie.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

3 hours ago, Josh500 said:

 

I know you probably do not mean to sound offensive, but you kinda do, certainly. 

 

No need to bring up "old man" or "even at his age" or "despite his advanced years" (or phrases to that effect) etc. every time something doesn't go 100% as expected or desired... We're talking about a man who wrote 4 incredibly demanding and complex scores in 2005, right after he finished with the HP series. So his "old age" very likely has no or very little bearing on this. He just wanted to do something else... 

 

I don't know how you even remotely got anything offensive out of what was unequivocally unreserved praise.

 

Age is not a judgement or criticism, it is a biological fact of life.

[Arpy 4,145]

Guys, guys, c'mon. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let's make a poll to settle this.

[Josh500 1,615]

17 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Age is not a judgement or criticism, it is a biological fact of life.

 

You know, that's a very mature thing to say. Especially for your age! 

 

Is is okay when I say that? Why, it's a biological fact we all age! So you shouldn't be upset! 

 

Fact is, in our society, one shouldn't harp on anybody's age unless it has a direct bearing on the subject at hand. Why? Because even if it's not offensive, it's tactless, to say the least. Ever wonder why old people don't want to be reminded of their age over and over again? No? Well, that's why. Besides, like I said, it doesn't have any bearing here anyway...

[bollemanneke 3,342]

It doesn't have any bearing when we talk about JW, but some old people definitely decline mentally when they're at the age when he could have composed HP4. That's not offensive, that's a fact.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Offenthive

[Brundlefly 2,385]

16 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Gosh I love "The Firebolt and End Credits Suite" but it's been nearly a year and I still haven't been able to train my brain *not* to expect the Window to the Past section to cut to the "Buckbeak's Flight" drums.  It's really hard to shake 15 years of "Mischief Managed"!!!

While we got rid of that stupid film version end credits suite, Intrada forced the shit on us with The Mummy.

 

But I know what you mean and meanwhile I have both versions in my mind.

[bollemanneke 3,342]

Now that I think about it, it's really weird that JW wanted that film version suite on the OST. It's so redundant.

[crumbs 14,306]

He was probably just following suit when the filmmakers decided not to have Hedwig's Theme close the credits.

[bollemanneke 3,342]

But still, what value does it add to the album? We already heard all that music.

[Arpy 4,145]

4 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

But still, what value does it add to the album? We already heard all that music.

Convenience - I used to listen to Mischief Managed as a nice suite of all the themes.

[crumbs 14,306]

37 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

But still, what value does it add to the album? We already heard all that music.

 

Also remember that this was during Williams' phase of "reprising" identical tracks at the end of his soundtracks. He stopped doing that after Terminal/Azkaban (unless you count the BOTH reprise in the end credits of ROTS or the obligatory Raiders March at the end of KOCS), so I guess he came to the same conclusion you did.

 

It's noteworthy that none of his newer Star Wars soundtracks have repeated music (I think it's the MM influence that probably helped change his mindset here).

[Jay 37,352]

Williams will often follow suite with last minute film changes to score and incorporate them into his OST albums.  Like both ET and CE3K ending with a straight dump of the film's music stem, The Accidental Tourist featuring the cue Kasdan tracked over the Main Title as the album opener and calling the track Main Title, and burying his intended Main Title cue later in the OST under a different name, Tintin featuring the tracking of the Radio Room cue for the Mansion sequence, Force Awakens featuring the tracking of the ending R2 cue for the Meeting BB8 scene, etc.

[Smeltington 1,440]

I wish there was some third option besides the Hedwig's Theme material again, though. After a whole fresh new score with almost no old themes, it feels weird to cap it all off by diving right back into extended copypasta, a la Chamber.

[Jay 37,352]

Yea it is kinda weird he wrote a true end credits suite, incorporating his new Double Trouble and Past themes.... for a few minutes, then just stopped.  If he had crafted new iterations of the musical ideas the music editors cobbled together into a true ending suite, that would have been glorious

[crumbs 14,306]

Azkaban was a very rewrite heavy score, so maybe he intended to write a proper suite but was pressed for time? Far easier to just re-record an existing suite as your closer.

 

One thing that doesn't make much sense is the duration. His original intentions for the credits clearly don't fit the duration of the final film credits, so he must have recorded this before the filmmakers finalised them, resulting in the last-minute copy/paste medley of film cues?

[Montre 79]

I wonder why the orchestral concert version Double Trouble was not included on the soundtrack album. It would have sounded fantastic in Abbey Road with the London musicians, and would be nice to have that as the definitive version. And no, this is not the same arrangement that is included as part of the end credits suite. 

 

 

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

I think for the end credits he developed his 2 new major themes as much as he could develop them. There is a point beyond which the piece is not a good piece because you are stretching it too thin. 

 

It is a perfectly reasonable approach to write a credits suite shorter than the actual length of the credits. Another cue can always be played after it.

 

For example. The credits are 11 minutes long. Play Williams 7 minute cue. And then play Quidittich 3rd year. But that point, 99% of the audience has already left the theater and the patrons who want to enjoy the music can still do so.

[crumbs 14,306]

1 minute ago, Montre said:

I wonder why the orchestral concert version Double Trouble was not included on the soundtrack album. It would have sounded fantastic in Abbey Road with the London musicians, and would be nice to have that as the definitive version. And no, this is not the same arrangement that is included as part of the end credits suite. 

 

 

 

He wrote that suite after the sessions were finished. Same with the revised Window to the Past arrangement, which is superb.

[Jay 37,352]

21 minutes ago, Montre said:

I wonder why the orchestral concert version Double Trouble was not included on the soundtrack album.

 

Because it wasn't written until later

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

40 minutes ago, crumbs said:

 

He wrote that suite after the sessions were finished. Same with the revised Window to the Past arrangement, which is superb.

 

Is there a recording of that?

[Jay 37,352]

 

[Montre 79]

Thanks all, it’s interesting to me how Williams sometimes has concert arrangements ready to go for the sessions and other times writes them afterwards, and even revises the already published ones.

[bollemanneke 3,342]

It's even more interesting that to this day only that third-rate orchestra has recorded the entire suite.

[crumbs 14,306]

It's usually a reflection of him not being fully satisfied with the version he recorded for the film score. He's such a perfectionist, always tinkering until he's satisfied.

 

The Lost World concert arrangement is another great example. Even the two versions recorded for the film score indicate he couldn't quite work out exactly how to bring that theme together until months later. 

 

The shame of the WTTP arrangement is that I've never heard Williams actually conduct it, much less have a studio recording of him performing it. It's such a major improvement on the cut + paste assembly of film cues he used for the album version (he did the same thing with Ivanka's Theme for KOCS before writing a proper suite, which is also frustratingly rare). 

[Jay 37,352]

Yea that proper concert version of Irina's theme is really great, the OST cue edit is just kinda blah

[Smeltington 1,440]

The album edits of Window to the Past and Irina's Theme are both surprisingly satisfying. If I didn't know they were made up of other cues I wouldn't be bothered by them at all. This is what happens when you know too much!

 

Def would like to have better recordings of the actual concert versions though, of course.

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

Ignorance is bliss!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

To be honest, Williams should just give us the sessions before the movie comes out and we'll tell him what the best OST assembly would be.

[Jay 37,352]

I think he should just stick to his earliest, original ideas for his albums and leave the inserts and rewrites for future expansions

[Josh500 1,615]

36 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

It's even more interesting that to this day only that third-rate orchestra has recorded the entire suite.

 

The Prague Philharmonic is hardly Third Rate! 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

Fourth rate then!

 

1 hour ago, Jay said:

I think he should just stick to his earliest, original ideas for his albums and leave the inserts and rewrites for future expansions

 

I think he should stick to the versions the he himself feels work best on their own.

[Jay 37,352]

Well, that's true, you got me there

[Jurassic Shark 12,067]

But it's good if we get the other versions on the expanded soundtrack.