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Harry Potter 7CD Collection - MUSIC discussion


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I still think that original The Dementor Converge  (which we don't have) and old Watching the Past (which is "alternate") were recorded at the early stage. Then, the director (or someone else) realized that these scenes looked strange with this music (and apparently the problem was not only with the music), and tried to fix it: in the Dementor Converge, the moment when the Patronus disperses the dementors was expanded, and a new insert The Patronus Power was recorded, which was longer. And at the same time, a horn overlay (with WttP theme) was recorded for the second half of Watching the Past to make the music sound more "friendly" and less dramatic. But after these changes, the music still sounded strange, and then it was decided to almost completely rewrite The Dementor Converge, and move the second half of Watching the Past there, with a faster tempo and modified choral chords.

 

As for The Patronus Light, here I can only turn on the conspiracy: the track was originally recorded for the OST album (not for the movie), and then, when the mentioned changes took place, it was decided to use this track in the film: they shortened it and recorded a new choral layer and a WttP layer to it.

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The whole thing is still surreal to me, that I would even be asked to work on something so large and important!  The whole thing came together extremely quickly (especially for 7 discs / 8 hours of mu

This set is the best album I have ever bought. It’s still unreal to me that all of my favourite music from my childhood is newly remastered and released. I’ve been looking forward to discussing every

Williams wrote that music for the deleted Sir Cadogan scene.  The cue was then tracked into two different spots in the final cut, one of which was artificially slowed down.   The little 10 s

Whew! Almost. As Chewy's second clip shows, Watching the Past's Patronus Insert isn't really *just* The Patronus Light with horns, it has more choral elements. Or is it just a very different mix?

 

Also, the horn part on Watching the Past and the OST Converge aren't the same. Or... holy crap, it's just edited and very sped up, isn't it?

 

And this means the booklet is still incorrect in referring to Dementors Converge as the prerecorded insert when it only uses the horn part sped up? Also, above it refers to Patronus Power as "intended for when Harry first learns to summon the powerful charm", which sounds like it's referring to the first lesson and the cue title (Summoning the Patronus) when now we've now heard mockups that show it's an early version of Dementors Converge (Patronus Insert?)

 

 

Still, thank you very much for that explanation, it does make things clearer!

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Sorry to throw another question at you @Jay but how does The Dementors Circle (LLL D2T22) fit into all this? Just more wild choral recordings to be used wherever required?

 

It's a really nice touch that 3 of these wild choral pieces were included on the LLL, perfectly sequenced too! Were there any other wild choral elements you wanted to include on the set but had to cap it at 3? Shame you couldn't include a clean version of the Quidditch choral overlay anywhere; we could've phased it out of that track to replicate the orchestra-only film version. :(

 

7 hours ago, Holko said:

Also, above it refers to Patronus Power as "intended for when Harry first learns to summon the powerful charm", which sounds like it's referring to the first lesson and the cue title (Summoning the Patronus) when now we've now heard mockups that show it's an early version of Dementors Converge (Patronus Insert?)

 

Vaguely recall that mockup... do you remember who posted it? But essentially you're saying The Patronus Power (LLL D2T24) was actually an early alternate for The Patronus Insert (LLL D2T04)? The making of this score seems incredibly convoluted :lol:

 

Such a shame that a recording schedule with a breakdown of all cues and dates wasn't uncovered. How can documentation like that just go missing? Surely Shawn Murphy or someone associated with the production held onto material like that? :huh:

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8 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Vaguely recall that mockup... do you remember who posted it?

On 9/13/2020 at 9:59 PM, ragoz350 said:

The Dementor Converge - Original version

Perhaps the most interesting mockup. Here it is interesting to see how much the dramaturgy (uh) of this scene has changed. It is noteworthy that the moment with Harry's attempts to summon the Patronus is cut. Also interesting is the moment with the successful patronus at the end - musically it feels like a kind of vision through a dream (in the score the maximum dynamics is mezzopiano), but we only have a recording of a newer insert, where the sound is louder and clearer. The ending is shorter, I had to delete one frame with Harry.

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4 minutes ago, Jay said:

I don't follow everything you say here.  How can there be a mockup made of The Patronus Power, when that cue wasn't in the sheet music leak?  And if it was, why would anybody need to mock it up, since it's on the LLL CD?  Do you just mean a video someone made taking that LLL track and putting it in the First Frozen Lake scene?  If so, where is that video?  I scanned back over the past few pages and didn't see anything like that.

I assume by now you'd have seen it but I quoted ragoz350's mockup video on this page for crumbs. It's not 1:1 Patronus Power as on the LLL but close. He also has mockups of earlier versions of Summoning the Patronus and those are not even close.

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I only just saw that video, but isn't it LLL tracks synced to footage?

 

"Mockup" is only used to describe someone making a synth audio file from sheet music

 

There definitely isn't a single file in the sheet music leak that equals what "The Patronus Power" is, but it's certainly possible JW re-used something from an older cue when making "The Patronus Power".

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You... watched the entire thing, right? He only uses parts of the LLL where I assume the sheet music didn't change between versions, the rest, where it did, is definitely synth intruments. You can ask him about his source for the sheets.

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Earlier versions of 4M14 were certainly in the sheet music leak, which is how those were able to be mocked up, but the only one we know was recorded was the 4M14N which is both in the film and on the LLL CD.

 

As for that video, I only checked it out briefly and now I am completely confused now what it is and he'll have to explain precisely to us how he made it

 

When it comes to first frozen lake, the older version seen in the sheet music leak is called 6M5 Pt. 2, but the only version of that cue we know was recorded was 6M5AN First Frozen Lake, plus presumably "The Patronus Power" if we assume it that was definitively written as an alternate ending to that cue specifically and not as a "wild" option for any use

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Can you elaborate and be more precise?  Which sheet music? What is the cue number and name?  Is it all taken from one cue, or multiple?  At what timestamps does one thing change to another thing?

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2 minutes ago, Jay said:

Earlier versions of 4M14 were certainly in the sheet music leak, which is how those were able to be mocked up, but the only one we know was recorded was the 4M14N which is both in the film and on the LLL CD.

 

As for that video, I am completely confused now what it is and he'll have to explain precisely to us how he made it

 

When it comes to first frozen lake, the older version seen in the sheet music leak is called 6M5 Pt. 2, but the only version of that cue we know was recorded was 6M5AN First Frozen Lake

At 4M14, I found 2 versions in the leaked h/w score (original "Dueling the Patronus" and insert "Insert for Patronus Light"). In the film, apparently, the second version of this insert sounds, which I did not find in the h/w score. So I made 2 mockups of these 2 versions (original + old insert) from the h/w score.

 

About The Dementor Converge, this is 6M5 Pt. II. Somewhere I used fragments from LLL-recordings, somewhere I did something myself (I also shortened the moment with The Patronus Power a little (according to the score) and added at a very quiet volume the high tremolo of violins and the part of clarinets, which are also in the score, but are not audible on LLL-record).  I don't think there is anything in "my" leaked score that is not in the main leak.

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Yea, there's only one sheet music leak.  6M5 Pt. II is an early version of First Fozen Lake that we only know about because of the sheet leak.  The film and both albums use 6M5AN First Frozen Lake

 

So to be clear: The video we are talking about is your version of 6M5 Pt 2, made via a blend of your own mockups and pieces from the LLL album, when something on the LLL album matched what you saw in the sheets?  Is that right?

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He uses one of the first frozen lake cues. Check Data's edit too, he mocked up the same passage in the bonus section and it most definitely sounds like it was inspired by Patronus Power.

When you say ‘wait for the material to be found’, do you mean that people are still looking as we speak?

 

Any chance you could post the archive cue names for the three movies at some point? I am really curious. 

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2 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

He uses one of the first frozen lake cues. Check Data's edit too, he mocked up the same passage in the bonus section and it most definitely sounds like it was inspired by Patronus Power.

 

Yea, we've known about 6M5 Pt 2 since the sheet music first leaked however many years ago (10+?) and mockups made by fans have existed ever since

 

I just got completely confused by what Holko was trying to say about "the Patronus Power" track, further confusion caused by ragoz350 not putting in the description of his video the exact name of which sheet music file he used to make it

 

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When you say ‘wait for the material to be found’, do you mean that people are still looking as we speak?

 

I have no idea.  Well above my paygrade

 

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Any chance you could post the archive cue names for the three movies at some point? I am really curious. 

 

Hopefully!

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43 minutes ago, Brundlefly said:

@Jay Are you sure Patronus Insert and Patronus Light are the same take? They have a considerably different orchestration and lenght.

 

I don't think he said they were?

 

Patronus Insert is the underlying cue heard in OST Finale and LLL Watching the Past, with excerpts of The Patronus Light (which was a wild recording not tied to footage) mixed over the top as an overlay/sweetener, along with a separately recorded horn overlay. 

 

It's not used in the film in its entirety, only excerpts. The uncut, wild recording is only heard in the standalone track The Patronus Light. @Chewy was able to verify the takes used are identical by phasing the tracks, it's just cut + pasted in the film. 

 

There's no "clean" version of Patronus Insert available on any release (and it seems even Mike didn't have access to it because the OST track Finale was used for that section on the LLL).

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Why do you think that? I have no idea how many other leaked sheets of other scores show unrecorded alternates, but isn't it possible that those HP3 alternates were just drafts that were considered too bad to record?

 

Also, why did they not look at the tapes for this score? Budget reasons? I think I would have done it had I been aware of all the alternates I might find there.

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On 9/19/2020 at 3:54 PM, Jay said:

But with HP3 the sheer number of fully orchestrated sheets in the leak, combined with all the talk of the evolving score, themes that changed, etc, makes me think it's likely these old versions were recorded. 

Will you include those possibly-recorded cues in your spreadsheet?

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3 hours ago, Steve said:

A completely other question about the Box:

 

Why doesn't it include the Orchestra member credits? Usually the expanded versions list the orchestra members.

 

For scores recorded in the USA it is a contractual obligation to include them (though they can be listed on the label's website instead)

 

The three Potter scores were recorded in London

 

2 hours ago, Brundlefly said:

Will you include those possibly-recorded cues in your spreadsheet?

 

Of course!  All known information

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A bunch of music was recorded for the film.  Some cues later got overlays or inserts recorded, or even an entire new composition meant to completely replace it


The LLL release contains everything you can hear in the film except for a few very minor things, plus many of these earlier versions as well


A unlicensed leak of sheet music revealed that there exists (at least on paper) even earlier versions of some cues, but we have no idea if they were recorded or not. 

 

People have made mockups of these early compositions and presented them as embedded videos synced to film footage

 

I think that sums it up.  

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HP1 is entirely chronological, except 2 short cues (one 20 seconds, one 30 seconds) that Columbus did not use in the scenes they were written for, are instead presented at the spot he did use them in the film (tracked into a scene that had no original score written for it).

 

HP2 is entirely chronological, except 2 cues (3M6 Transformation Class and 3M7 The Library) are swapped in order to create a better listening experience

 

HP3 is a crazy score of around 75 original cues with around 35 revisions/inserts/overlays and other miscellanea, so a few liberties were taken to present it all in a way that made sense for home listening and also to fit it all into two 79 minute CDs.  The main narrative and thematic development is completely retained - what moved around are pieces outside of the main drive of the score.

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I don't really agree.

 

HP1 is indeed chronological, but I was referring to the two source cues on disc 3 while the two Christmas source cues are on disc 2, although the Wizard’s Pub might break the listening experience, I guess.

 

The HP2 decision makes sense from a listening experience point of view, although I do wish he hadn't crossfaded them.

 

Some of the HP3 liberties don't work for me at all, however. For instance, going from Birds to The Courtyard. In my view, it would have been far better to have Birds, Sir Cadogan, then The Courtyard and then The Hippogriff Lesson. Makes much more sense musically. And moving the Hogsmeade source cues to the bonus section is something I would never have done either. I’m guessing these decisions were taken because JW didn’t include them on the OST, but then, he also didn’t include The Courtyard.

 

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