SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE - 3CD Set from La-La Land Records

[Holko 9,499]

I was never happy with my edited suite of alternates at the end of the program so I thought why not be more creative with them? This is my current version:

 

- Fixed the terrible tempo hitch in Main Title

- edited part of Dome Opens Alternate into Dome Opens

- Joined Kryptonquake into Destruction as the scoregasm moment it was intended to be

- joined Crash Site into Trip to Earth for no real good reason

- included Fortress of Solitude alternate as "Clark's Journey" before the final cue - which gets even more satisfying from this when it uses the alternate's motif, and it buffs the Smallville section up

- included Mugger alternate before Cat Rescue

- joined Super Rescues/Chasing Rockets with Golden Gate/Rescuing Jimmy, the very long space between these two high octane action pieces that are the part of the same finale setpiece always bothered me a bit

- March of the Villains moved after Love Theme

- "Finale" is Prelude and Main Title alternate, which I love

 

 

What a great fucking score and release!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

The only alternate that really was of value was the FORTRESS OF SOLITUDE.

I was tempted to get the LLL just for that cue!

Someday. Maybe.

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Too bad it always flies out of stock!

[crumbs 14,304]

I'm sure this question has been asked a thousand times but what music does disc 3 of the LLL contain that isn't already on discs 1 and 2? Is it just another case of an alternate mix but repeated music?

 

And yes, I'm aware of the dialogue in Can You Read My Mind But I'm otherwise unfamiliar with this score and still haven't had a chance to listen to the LLL (except disc 3).

[Holko 9,499]

I think absolutely nothing, just in a different configuration. But it's the first time the proper double LP program was released on CD in the US. And it's a damn good presentation for once!

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Isn't The Fortress of Solitude shortened on the OST, or something?

[Holko 9,499]

And Super Rescues and Superfeats and Chasing Rockets are joined tracks. So no, no music that isn't already on Disc 1 and 2, just in a different configuration.

[rough cut 1,714]

I love me an OST presentation on an expansion.

[Jay 37,322]

The 3rd disc contains a brand new rebuild of the 1978 OST album because it's an iconic album and everyone felt it should be included in the definitive release of this score.

 

When JW constructed the album in 1978, it was all made from the same takes and mixes as the cues that went into the film (this is one of those scores where Tomlinson cut the performance edits directly on the 1st generation tape, so all releases have always have the correct takes everywhere).  When the original LP program was released on CD in the US years later, 2 tracks were cut to fit the CD limitations at the time; the full 1978 LP program had only been released on CD in Japan before the LLL debuted it in the US 41 years after its USA LP debut.

 

The entirety of the LLL set is an entirely new mix.  All previous albums used 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation sources that all contained Tomlinson's film mix.  For this release the first gen tapes were finally found, but they were multitrack - Tomlinson's film mix was not re-dubbed onto spare tracks on the 1st gen tape.  So Mike created his own brand new mix from the first generation multitrack for every single cue in the score.

 

So this edition of the 1978 OST album is Mike's new mix, not Tomlinson's old mix.  After the mix, as far as mastering goes, the original LP was mastered in one way back in 78, the 2000 Rhino was mastered differently, and the 2008 was mastered differently again - except for any tracks they had to take off the album master.  The LLL album was entirely mastered by Mike including the OST rebuild.

 

One final note is that there is some piano heard in the Planet Krypton OST track that isn't otherwise in the Rhino, FSM, or LLL main program, so including the OST program in this set was a great way to include that little bit that Williams apparently liked enough to put on the LP (the only thing that differed from the film mix on the entire LP, other than the different placement of Margo Kidder's vocals)

[Pellaeon 593]

17 hours ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Too bad it always flies out of stock!

 

Aaargh!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Yeah, another reason I would like the LLL is for the OST presentation!

[Amer 2,080]

On 9/19/2020 at 12:21 AM, Jay said:

The 3rd disc contains a brand new rebuild of the 1978 OST album because it's an iconic album and everyone felt it should be included in the definitive release of this score.

 

When JW constructed the album in 1978, it was all made from the same takes and mixes as the cues that went into the film (this is one of those scores where Tomlinson cut the performance edits directly on the 1st generation tape, so all releases have always have the correct takes everywhere).  When the original LP was released on CD in the US 2 tracks were cut to fit the CD limitations at the time; the full 1978 LP program had only been released on CD in Japan before the LLL debuted it in the US.

 

The entirety of the LLL set is an entirely new mix.  All previous albums used 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation sources that all contained Tomlinson's film mix.  For this release the first gen tapes were finally found, but they were multitrack - Tomlinson's film mix was not re-dubbed onto spare tracks on the 1st gen tape.  So Mike created his own brand new mix from the first generation multitrack for every single cue in the score.

 

So this edition of the 1978 OST album is Mike's new mix, not Tomlinson's old mix, if that matters to anyone.  The old LP would have also been mastered for home listening too, it wasn't a raw untouched release of Tomlinson's film mixes.  The Rhino and FSM would have each had their own different final mastering of the film mixes as well (except for the tracks on those albums taken directly from the album master, like the Love Theme).  The LLL album was entirely mastered by Mike including the OST rebuild.

 

One final note is that there is some piano heard in the Planet Krypton OST track that isn't otherwise in the Rhino, FSM, or LLL main program, so including the OST program in this set was a great way to include that little bit that Williams apparently liked enough to put on the LP (the only thing that differed from the film mix on the entire LP)

A few years before the set was even considered I implored Matessino to do it as a stand-alone 3CD set for this and specifically requested that the OST album be made part of this. I even made my own version of the track list for the set. This was around the time when the FSM set became OOP. I was told it would eventually happen in the future but there was a lot of paper work and approvals required.

 

Fast forward to the future, and as plans to issue the standalone set were set in motion and it was going to be a high resolution transfer from the same sources that was used for the FSM set.But then a Miracle happened and the original recording session were discovered. The rest is history.... 

[QuartalHarmony 542]

I've just driven home from work with the third CD playing, and just been amazed all over again at what a great score, performance and OST album this was (is). Williams is at (or certainly very near) his absolute peak, he's worked with the LSO the year before and you can tell he's pushing them harder and they're enjoying keeping up. The brass section are absolutely on fire and the strings are great too, though possibly a little too much vibrato on the violins at times. The OST album is brilliantly sequenced - I like albums that generally follow the film order - with the concert suites being placed nicely as palate-cleansers.

 

The sound quality on this latest (hopefully definitive) release is noticeably excellent too, even in the car.

 

Mark

[Smeltington 1,436]

On 9/18/2020 at 3:21 PM, Jay said:

One final note is that there is some piano heard in the Planet Krypton OST track that isn't otherwise in the Rhino, FSM, or LLL main program, so including the OST program in this set was a great way to include that little bit that Williams apparently liked enough to put on the LP (the only thing that differed from the film mix on the entire LP)

 

I didn't realize that... I double checked your spreadsheet and didn't see timestamps for the part with the extra piano. Are you able to share those?

[Jay 37,322]

I don't remember where it is

 

The best way to find a difference between 2 versions of a cue when it isn't obvious from looking at each in an audio editor, BTW, is to put headphones on and play one version in the left ear only and the other version in the right ear only.  

[QuartalHarmony 542]

The OST track (LLL CD3, T2) has rather atonal piano flourishes underlying the high synth parts from 2:09-3:09. I've just listened to it, closely followed by CD1, T2 and the latter part of the same segment, also starting at 2:09, has less piano later on. I think I prefer the OST in this instance.

 

Talking (obliquely) of Krypton, I'd also like to shout out the masterful way Williams puts the Krypton theme into the minor at the beginning of The Fortress of Solitude. It's actually just a change of one note (out of eight) by a mere semitone, but it completely changes the feel of the motif: D-G-C-G-C-D-Eb-C. Later in the cue, when the Fortress is built, this makes the usual major key version of the theme sound even more triumphant: D-G-C-G-C-D-E-C. All from just changing a single note. What a craftsman.

 

Mark

[QuartalHarmony 542]

Oh, and another thing I wanted to ask: is there a list of musicians who played on Superman (and Williams’s other LSO recordings)? I seem to recall seeing one for Empire back in the very early days when the phrase ‘information superhighway’ didn’t sound ridiculous. Anyone got one?

 

I like reading the lists in recent releases, especially spotting the same names on different scores, not to mention Williams’s brother(?s).

 

Mark

[BrotherSound 2,242]

2 hours ago, QuartalHarmony said:

Oh, and another thing I wanted to ask: is there a list of musicians who played on Superman (and Williams’s other LSO recordings)?

@TownerFan’s got you covered!

 

https://thelegacyofjohnwilliams.com/2019/03/21/london-symphony-orchestra-superman/

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Shark wants that list so he can scold musicians who " flubbed".

😎

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

What? I'm not QuartalHarmony.

 

Why isn't Bruce banned now again?

 

On 9/20/2020 at 4:42 AM, Amer said:

Fast forward to the future, and as plans to issue the standalone set were set in motion and it was going to be a high resolution transfer from the same sources that was used for the FSM set.But then a Miracle happened and the original recording session were discovered. The rest is history.... 

 

A miracle? Are you saying Mike is Jesus reincarnated?

[Amer 2,080]

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

What? I'm not QuartalHarmony.

 

Why isn't Bruce banned now again?

 

 

A miracle? Are you saying Mike is Jesus reincarnated?

I thought you said remastered but then...:)

[QuartalHarmony 542]

Thank you, gentlemen/women.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

On 10/1/2020 at 11:14 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

 

 

 

A miracle? Are you saying Mike is Jesus reincarnated?

No. Laurent Bouzreau holds that title.

 

On 10/1/2020 at 11:14 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

 

 

Why isn't Bruce banned now aga

Because, there is a rule;

A person can only be banned from ONE film score site per decade.

 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

Of course we get that.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

12 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Of course we get that.

I keep forgetting.

Worldly Euros know more about American politics than most Americans do.😒

[Jay 37,322]

Bruce, please don't bring politics into threads about film scores.  Thank you

[Jurassic Shark 12,033]

19 minutes ago, Jay said:

Bruce, leave

 

[Arpy 4,145]

Bruce Lee's long lost brother.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

6 hours ago, Jay said:

Bruce, please don't bring politics into threads about film scores.  Thank you

Edited

[E-Wan 65]

I have tried to match "Prelude and Main Title (Film Version)" (track 17 on Disc 2) with the actual Main Title scene from the film and it doesn't fit!

It seems the music track from LLL 3CD set is much longer and slower than the actual music in the film.

Can anybody help me how to synchronize it?

Thanks a lot in advance.

[Jay 37,322]

You didn't read the liner notes.  Donner artificially sped up the end credits recording when he tracked it into the opening of the film.    For a bonus track, the LLL CD re-creates the same edits as used in the film, but doesn't alter the speed of the music.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Just purchased- $25 CHEAP!😁

[E-Wan 65]

On 27/11/2020 at 5:33 PM, Jay said:

You didn't real the liner notes.  Donner artificially sped up the end credits recording when he tracked it into the opening of the film.    The LLL CD re-creates the same edits as used in the film, but doesn't alter the speed.

 

Yes, I did.

But I still don't know how to alter "Prelude and Main Title (Film Version)" (track 17 on Disc 2) to fit it to the film scene.

 

Unfortunatelly I don't know how to do the upward pitch shift and subsequent small edits exactly the same as it is done in the film.

[Jay 37,322]

You increase the speed of the part of the track that's the end credits.  I couldn't tell you what percent to increase it by, though

[E-Wan 65]

1 minute ago, Jay said:

You increase the speed of the part of the track that's the end credits.  I couldn't tell you what percent to increase it by, though

 

Yes this is exactly what I need to know and where are the edit points because the End Title part is not only sped up but also edited.

[Amer 2,080]

Trial by Error until you find what you need. 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

There is a YT vid where someone synced it

[SyncMan 314]

@E-Wan,if this matters, the DVD and Blu Ray releases of 'Superman'  have an ‘isolated music score’ audio track where the music is edited and sync’d with the film.

 

Otherwise, what project are you working on that you have to do the sync’ing/edits yourself?

[Tallguy 3,380]

Is the speed change why the music goes sharp (or was it flat?) in the film? 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Never.noticed. don't. Care.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I worked at the SF theater where this first played. State of the art sound system - personally designed by Dolby Labs.

That's the benchmark for me.

If this sounds as good I will be one happy score fan!

[QuartalHarmony 542]

Speeding the tape up certainly would send the music sharp. It could be done more sophisticatedly today but not Back In The Day.

 

For those with perfect pitch, this sort of thing really grates. Most of the rest of the world neither notices nor cares, as Bruce has shown.

 

Mark

[bruce marshall 1,315]

" Its not that I don't care, it's just that I don't care Otis".

😆

 

Weren't the BEATLES able to speed up tracks without raising the pitch on some recordings?

[Datameister 2,037]

37 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

I worked at the SF theater where this first played. State of the art sound system - personally designed by Dolby Labs.

That's the benchmark for me.

If this sounds as good I will be one happy score fan!

 

I'm with @QuartalHarmony on this - for the majority of people, it wouldn't be noticeable, even with the best sound system in the world. The rest would catch it even on a crappy mono smartphone speaker. Doesn't even have to be someone with perfect pitch - just a decent ear for intonation, since the edit suddenly shifts from actual pitch to something conspicuously sharp. For anyone who either hasn't seen the film or doesn't remember, that moment is at 1:41 below, right as the title flies into frame. I'm pretty sure my first viewing of the film when I was young was on a crappy VHS copy, and I remember it immediately jumped out at me. (At the time, I just assumed it was just because it was old.)

 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Do you mean it shifts into a different key or the music speeds up ?

[SyncMan 314]

25 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Do you mean it shifts into a different key or the music speeds up ?

When one is working on analogue tape machines, it’s both. 

 

When you are increasing the speed of the analogue tape machine, the result would be a higher pitch (or 'key').  When you are decreasing the speed of the analogue tape machine, the result would be lower in pitch.

 

Anyone who owns even a TASCAM home audio cassette machine with a (-/+) pitch knob can tell you that.

[Datameister 2,037]

29 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Do you mean it shifts into a different key or the music speeds up ?

 

Like @SyncMan said, in the tape days a change of speed meant a change of pitch. Nowadays computers are reasonably good at changing pitch and speed independently, but in Superman's day, speeding up the tape meant going sharp. I don't notice the speed change - I notice the sudden jump to all the pitches being very sharp, though not sharp enough to take us all the way into the next key up (C#). Instead, the first note of the melody is roughly halfway between a C and a C#, and Western music doesn't traditionally have any notes between those two.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Only Disc 3 in this set matters anyway.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Can't you change the pitch without speeding up the tape?

[Datameister 2,037]

1 hour ago, bruce marshall said:

Can't you change the pitch without speeding up the tape?

 

I feel like I'm missing a joke - insert "humor...it is a difficult concept" here. But if I'm not...yes, nowadays you definitely can. But some algorithms are better at it than others, and even the best ones do disrupt the sound quality a bit. It's less mathematically straightforward than simply changing the speed and letting the pitch come along for the ride. I don't believe there's an analog way to do this, though I could be wrong.