The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 Well today's contemporary composers aren't neccesarily trying to cater to us, as we are a relatively small demographic in the big picture. No, today's composers are attempting to capture a wider audience by luring them in with what amounts to pop song titles. I much prefer Symphony No. x over anything else. If you want to give a piece an extra title, like Moonlight or Pathetique or whatever, go right ahead, but if I were writing a piano concerto or a symphony I would definetly categorize and name it the way my idols did. SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,304 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 21 hours ago, Disco Stu said: Is anyone else starting to question if the influence of film music on concert music in general is actually a good thing? It strikes me that art music, whether orchestral or not, has tended toward being too programmatic in (lack of) form. Like, even new pieces of music written with the intention of being presented on their own often seem to have some unspoken visual narrative in the mind of the composer. Or so it seems to my ears. Maybe it's the circular nature of these things, the return of the Romantic notion of music needing to represent some visual or narrative idea beyond itself, even if the formal language is pretty far removed from the 19th century. I wonder if it's because for composers today, much of their earliest, pre-language exposure to music is accompanying a visual, edited story. Composers today even feel the need to name their pieces some descriptive, expressive title; although I think that might be more the influence of album-oriented pop music than film music. Anyway, I'm just rambling about something I don't have much first-hand knowledge of. Just a thought that struck me as I'm diving deep on Walter Piston, who seems the antithesis of this programmatic trend in modern music. I think it stems from contemporary composers going after form and structure of some sort. We live in a time where the evolution of contemporary music has largely rejected traditional repertoire form and young composers are finding it hard to build off of structures. Anything goes in the concert hall these days. This is probably where narrative and programmatic concepts come in handy because they become an easier vessel to give form to unstructured ideas, as opposed to absolute music. And of course, the influence of pop and crossover albums are huge. Programmed music also just has broader appeal as a pitch, than Concerto No. 2323... The Illustrious Jerry and SteveMc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 23 minutes ago, KK said: Concerto No. 2323... I love that one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Loert 2,496 Posted June 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 25, 2019 How to be a contemporary composer: Open a collection of modern poetry Pick a random phrase in a random poem; this is your title Write a piece of music that has nothing to do with the title Success! Jurassic Shark, The Illustrious Jerry and SteveMc 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Fabulin 3,505 Posted June 25, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted June 25, 2019 . Loert, Jurassic Shark and The Illustrious Jerry 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, KK said: Concerto No. 2323... The Illustrious Jerry and Jurassic Shark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 2 hours ago, SteveMc said: Yes, that loud crash was me falling out of my chair! Hilarious! SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted June 25, 2019 Share Posted June 25, 2019 On a serious note, I do agree that music written and named on purely structural terms is becoming something of a rare art, partly indeed because audiences seem to need some outside context. The same goes for other art forms. It seems the popular movies these days need to be based on established pop cultural juggernauts or timely social issues. Movies made for the simple joy of filmmaking don't seem to do as well. There are exceptions to this, of course, La La Land perhaps being one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted June 25, 2019 Author Share Posted June 25, 2019 1 hour ago, SteveMc said: The same goes for other art forms. It seems the popular movies these days need to be based on established pop cultural juggernauts or timely social issues. Movies made for the simple joy of filmmaking don't seem to do as well. There are exceptions to this, of course, La La Land perhaps being one. Oh yeah. The movie industry really had taken a similar turn in that sense, and a lot of it has to do with awards. Films are credited these days not neccesarily because of craft or design, but because of social relevance, which is dissapointing for avid fans of cinema. I mean, I'm sure we've all seen the Oscars ceremonies these past few years. Unfortunately, when movies come along that are made without these undertones, but rather done so in a fun and celebratory manner, they don't neccesarily grab the love and attention they deserve. Sure, say, La La Land was a big hit, but I only know people that rued it (much to my dismay- it was brilliant). It's become an expectation to apply social significance into films, and I've read "professional" reviews written today about films made in the 60s and 70s complaining about, say, their lack of strong female characters or racial diversity within the cast. What a skewed lens! And now back to the thread: FAURE: Pavane Lovely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Make sure to tune into WCRB for Tanglewood Live tonight at 8pm Eastern. Andris Nelsons is conducting the great Copland Third, the music I'd consider most personally important to me over anything even Williams has written. A program of just Copland and Grieg is a bit unusual, can't wait to listen! I'll be interested to see which version of the 4th movement they perform, the original 1946 or the one with cut measures that was the norm up until Slatkin started conducting the original this decade. SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 Grieg's piano concerto is great. So is the rest of the program! The Illustrious Jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 A great meeting of Norway and America Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted July 12, 2019 Author Share Posted July 12, 2019 Listened to Brahms' Double Concerto. Picked up a recording of it from the 90s in a bargain bin- Itzhak Perlman on violin, Yo-Yo Ma on violoncello, and Daniel Barenboim conducting the Chicago Symphony. That's one heck of a lineup! Plus, Deutsche Grammophon's release of Paganini's first two violin concertos, with Salvatore Accardo on the violin. If you've ever wondered why Paganini was considered a "devil" on the violin, these two pieces may give some indication (although you should probably check out his more famous 24 caprices first, if you haven't yet). Literally every possible note on every possible register you could imagine. It's ridiculously good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 It doesn't exist anywhere on the internet digitally, so I can't post it here, but I am absolutely infatuated with the finale movement of Piston's String Quartet No. 2, completed in 1935. I've listened to it like 10 times in a row. I find the music so exciting that I have to get up and pace around when listening to it, complete with physical gesticulations because the rhythms and extremely contrapuntal writing are so intense and wonderful. Honestly, I think the 5 string quartets are Piston's greatest achievement, although the symphonies are the most celebrated. I've ordered the study scores for the first 4 quartets and I hope to make score videos for Youtube this month or next. It's a cryin' shame how little recorded they are. Anyway, here's my upload of his 4th quartet, as far as I can tell the first time it's ever been available to hear digitally. The Illustrious Jerry and SteveMc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 1 hour ago, The Illustrious Jerry said: Listened to Brahms' Double Concerto Haven't heard that one in a few years, but it used to be one of my favorite Brahms works. The Illustrious Jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 I frankly prefer his symphonies and the violin concerto over the double concerto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 12, 2019 Share Posted July 12, 2019 This is from a music review published in 1949. I sincerely hope the author did not survive to the era of minimalism, I'm not sure he could have handled it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Listening to the concert from Tanglewood. Goodness, Grieg followed by a Schumann encore just makes me sleepy. They're playing Mendelssohn in the intermission. Still 19th century so not really my wheelhouse, but more my style than what came before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Ah, now this is sweet. Beautiful performance so far. Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 41 minutes ago, SteveMc said: Ah, now this is sweet. Beautiful performance so far. Nelsons taking it slightly faster than my preferred interpretation (Slatkin) but the orchestra is singing beautifully. Filled with nobility and tenderness. But wait for dat boisterous scherzo! The orchestra sounding a little more clumsy here and way too slow. The scherzo movement can be tricky to get right, it should sound a bit hectic but not comic. I know they'll pull off the delicate trio in the middle though. The grand climax of the scherzo sounded amazing though. All is forgiven for whiffing on the opening of the movement! The opening of the 3rd movement, so mysterious. Copland's most private and introverted moment in the midst of this symphony that's all about community and connection with fellow man. I love the balletic section in the middle. Holy moly the 3rd movement came off so beautifully. Just an amazing piece of music that. But it's time for that finale. Let's do this! The development section of the finale is so quirky and so Copland. His orchestration style is unmistakeable. The piccolo that introduces the recapitulation/coda after the dissonant climax of the development. Just a perfect choice. Oh fuck yes, they played the original 1946 version with the restored 10 bars. I guess that's the standard version now. I'm very very happy about that. I got goosebumps at the end there. Nelsons really convinced me tonight, he is a worthy interpreter of my favorite music. SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Heard some choreographed Thomas Ades with the LA Phil this evening - that guy is just not my cup of tea it seems. Doesn't help to have people prancing about to the music. Leila Josefowicz is a treasure though. The group I attended with reconvened afterwards to work through some chamber music of Webern and Harvey - now there's something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Dixon Hill said: that guy is just not my cup of tea it seems Adès is dull as dishwater. All flash, no substance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 12 hours ago, Disco Stu said: The orchestra sounding a little more clumsy here and way too slow. The scherzo movement can be tricky to get right, it should sound a bit hectic but not comic. I know they'll pull off the delicate trio in the middle though. The grand climax of the scherzo sounded amazing though. All is forgiven for whiffing on the opening of the movement! Impressions were the same here. A lot of life was drawn out from the piece last night. Very satisfying. Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 13 hours ago, Disco Stu said: Oh fuck yes, they played the original 1946 version with the restored 10 bars. I guess that's the standard version now. I'm very very happy about that. What was Copie's stance regarding the two versions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 8 hours ago, Disco Stu said: Adès is dull as dishwater. All flash, no substance. An unfortunate truth about much contemporary concert music - mine included. There are precious few who can communicate with the lean, keen language of Copland's 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,450 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 On 6/25/2019 at 4:28 PM, SteveMc said: That might not be as "way out" as you think. Check out Andrew Lloyd Webber's VARIATIONS. On 6/25/2019 at 8:32 PM, The Illustrious Jerry said: FAURE: Pavane Lovely. That it is, but it's not as good as his REQUIEM - which I've sung, by the way. IN PARADISUM...aah! (sigh) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, Dixon Hill said: An unfortunate truth about much contemporary concert music - mine included. There are precious few who can communicate with the lean, keen language of Copland's 3rd. What's up with this trend of composers becoming kind of obsessed with instruments as special effects? Like getting weird non-traditional sounds out of traditional instruments. I'm all for finding new ways to use them, but maybe.... have something to communicate or express doing that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, Dixon Hill said: An unfortunate truth about much contemporary concert music When I was younger I was all "Hell yeah!" with all of that stuff--I'm thinkin' dudes like Michael Daugherty--but after a couple of weeks I'd start to feel a hollowness kick in. I felt no sense of spiritual resonance...I feel bad for feeling that way, though. It's really hard for me to find modern orchestral composers that transcend this, Peter Lieberson one of them...but I don't even know how contemporary he'd be considered anymore. 5 minutes ago, Disco Stu said: What's up with this trend of composers becoming kind of obsessed with instruments as special effects? Like getting weird non-traditional sounds out of traditional instruments. I'm all for finding new ways to use them, but maybe.... have something to communicate or express doing that? Honestly I wonder if a part of it might be an internalized pressure to "push the artform forward". So much has been said and done, and composers are saying to themselves, "What can I do to say something that hasn't been yet, how can I innovate?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 11 minutes ago, Richard said: That it is, but it's not as good as his REQUIEM - which I've sung, by the way. It's among the greatest requiems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 I remember reading a quote somewhere as a student about orchestration being a tool for the great and a crutch for the mediocre, something like that. Exactly what's been going on for decades now under the aegis of a greater focus on timbre. All well and good but ultimately I suspect much of it is simply the result of overly academic composers bereft of actual expressive ideas finding new ways to cover that up with sheer sonic shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, Dixon Hill said: I remember reading a quote somewhere as a student about orchestration being a tool for the great and a crutch for the mediocre, something like that. Exactly what's been going on for decades now under the aegis of a greater focus on timbre. All well and good but ultimately I suspect much of it is simply the result of overly academic composers bereft of actual expressive ideas finding new ways to cover that up with sheer sonic shock. Now that you put it in that angle, I will say that this is not limited entirely to the orchestral world. I've played in and listened to way too many electronic shows where it basically consisted of one person--or even worse, multiple people--with their precious custom handbuilt mega modular synthesizer rig or software just holding a tone for thirty minutes while slowly tweaking some knobs or laptop parameters. Essentially a tech demo for the kinds of _timbres_ their equipment could create. I remember listening to some of my peers hold one of these kinds of concerts, and right after a piece a dude in front of me got up, turned to me and said, "I guess I can respect what they're doing, but this is boring as shit", then left. When people asked about the show(s), I said, "You know the original Star Wars? Imagine that movie if Luke Skywalker never left Tatooine." SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omen II 1,234 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 11 hours ago, Dixon Hill said: Webern I am not at all familiar with Webern's music but I always feel so sorry for him given the circumstances of his death. I understand that the American soldier who shot him was so stricken with guilt that he took his own life some years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,232 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Yes a rather terrible event for both people involved. His music is the most impenetrable of the trio that's he typically cited in, but it is impossible not to marvel at its inner logic and deceptively expressive character when you take the time to become familiar with it. Omen II 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 Oh, crap, I never knew how Webern died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Nick Parker said: When I was younger I was all "Hell yeah!" with all of that stuff--I'm thinkin' dudes like Michael Daugherty--but after a couple of weeks I'd start to feel a hollowness kick in. I felt no sense of spiritual resonance...I feel bad for feeling that way, though. It's really hard for me to find modern orchestral composers that transcend this, Peter Lieberson one of them...but I don't even know how contemporary he'd be considered anymore. Honestly I wonder if a part of it might be an internalized pressure to "push the artform forward". So much has been said and done, and composers are saying to themselves, "What can I do to say something that hasn't been yet, how can I innovate?" Something about contemporary music that makes me feel lost at sea is the search for external formal inspirations. I suppose it's an evolution of the symphonic poem, but it comes off as silly and kind of desperate. Here's an example of what I mean from a composer who I actually think is reasonably talented. But dude.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Parker 3,040 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: Something about contemporary music that makes me feel lost at sea is the search for external formal inspirations. I suppose it's an evolution of the symphonic poem, but it comes off as silly and kind of desperate. Here's an example of what I mean from a composer who I actually think is reasonably talented. But dude.... Haha, you've really been swayed by Piston, haven't you? Ironic since so-called programmatic music has, for a very long time, been considered a "lesser form" than "absolute" music. Do you think the rising number of younger composers growing up with film scores has led to a rise in this? Or do you think that desire to stand out I mentioned plays a role here? Frank Zappa, when soloing, imagined the movement and contortion of geometric shapes. What would you say makes that different than this case? That he didn't showcase or "market" it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 13, 2019 Share Posted July 13, 2019 14 minutes ago, Nick Parker said: Haha, you've really been swayed by Piston, haven't you? Ironic since so-called programmatic music has, for a very long time, been considered a "lesser form" than "absolute" music. Do you think the rising number of younger composers growing up with film scores has led to a rise in this? Or do you think that desire to stand out I mentioned plays a role here? Frank Zappa, when soloing, imagined the movement and contortion of geometric shapes. What would you say makes that different than this case? That he didn't showcase or "market" it? I certainly don't have a problem with programmatic music, I'm here on a film score forum after all. My personal favorite is still Copland, and the majority of his works that are "in the canon" are programmatic in some fashion, although those are not always the works of his that speak to me the most. As for the Zappa thing, that seems different to me. That seems more like seeking external inspiration in the creation of music, rather than explicitly saying the music is meant to represent an external object or substance. Also, an improvised solo is different than a planned out formal composition. To achieve the sort of elevated mental state needed for that kind of performing, I say imagine whatever you need to imagine to get you there. However, I do think composer program notes are often..... bad. Even for the "absolute" composers active today. Here's another example that bothers me from Sebastian Currier. They get in their own way I think. Quote The overall character of Next Atlantis, for string quartet and pre-recorded sound, is one of sustained quietude, peacefulness, and serenity, but with a sense of emptiness and loss not far off. It is an elegy for a future that must not happen: New Orleans has been submerged under water. Sounds of water, both above and below the surface, pervade the piece. The water is an idealized water, often electronically sculpted into melodies and chords. The string orchestra maintains a dialogue with these muted sounds. The orchestra imitates the sounds of water and the water itself takes on vestiges of the players’ harmonies. Intertwined with these sounds is the faint, ghostly echo of fragments from Bourbon Street Parade, here subdued into quiet disembodied strains that rise to the surface like bubbles from a sunken shipwreck. It is a new Atlantis, not of the mythic past, but one of the too possible future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted July 14, 2019 Author Share Posted July 14, 2019 One of Mozart's most delicately beautiful compositions. What a combination too, the harp and the flute! Simply gorgeous. Jurassic Shark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 6 hours ago, Disco Stu said: Here's an example of what I mean from a composer who I actually think is reasonably talented. But dude.... There's only one thing to say about this: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Paul Hindemith's Trumpet Sonata, performed by Gilbert Johnson and Glenn Gould. Paul Hindemith's String Quartet No. 6, performed by the Amar Quartet Both stupendous, the latter especially. If you listen to enough Hindemith and Piston, you ascend to the higher plane of Good Taste, looking down with magnanimous indulgence on the petty neo-Romantic and avant garde squabbles below. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 On 7/13/2019 at 6:32 PM, Nick Parker said: Haha, you've really been swayed by Piston, haven't you? Ironic since so-called programmatic music has, for a very long time, been considered a "lesser form" than "absolute" music. Do you think the rising number of younger composers growing up with film scores has led to a rise in this? Or do you think that desire to stand out I mentioned plays a role here? I just came across a term I like that seems to fit what bothers me better than the word "programmatic." "musical pictorialism" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 11,957 Posted July 16, 2019 Share Posted July 16, 2019 Rachmaninov! The Illustrious Jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 Breaking news update: I can’t get through the Gran Partita without wanting to shoot myself in the head. The individual pieces are good, but 50 straight minutes of Mozart in his “delicate little bonbons” mode is just too much for me to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 He can't say that about Mozart. Could he? Disco Stu 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loert 2,496 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 On 7/16/2019 at 6:33 PM, Jurassic Shark said: Rachmaninov! That's an interesting way of spelling "Scriabin". The Illustrious Jerry and Fabulin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Disco Stu said: Breaking news update: I can’t get through the Gran Partita without wanting to shoot myself in the head. The individual pieces are good, but 50 straight minutes of Mozart in his “delicate little bonbons” mode is just too much for me to take. The Gran Partita is a great work from the era where Mozart finally got his independance. Listen to a good version of it: Then listen to these works from the same era and give me news: Concerto No 10 in E-flat Major for 2 pianos & orchestra, K. 365 Sonata for 4 hands Piano in D Major, K. 381 Piano Concerto No 12, K. 414 Jurassic Shark and Matthias 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 I didn’t say it was bad. A few of the movements are among his best work! Just that I don’t think it works as one long piece. Better to feature just a movement or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Bespin 8,457 Posted July 17, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 17, 2019 Mozart can’t lead you to shot you in the head, at worst it can lead you to get out the elevator and use the stairs. Disco Stu, Matthias and The Illustrious Jerry 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted July 17, 2019 Share Posted July 17, 2019 29 minutes ago, Bespin said: Mozart can’t lead you to shot you in the head, at worst it can lead you to get out the elevator and use the stairs. what’s Canadian for hyperbole The Illustrious Jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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