What is the last piece of classical music you listened to?

[Chen G. 3,943]

5 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Die Walküre. Wagner still leaves me completely cold

 

Die Walküre? Cold?!

 

I mean... Walküre?!

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Sorry, TESB is infinitely better in my book.

[Chen G. 3,943]

What I meant is that its the best entry in the Ring.

 

Das Rheingold is my first Wagnerian love, Siegfried has a lot of gorgeous music and Gotterdamerung is amazing. But... I mean, Walkure is such a great piece of music that the most well-known piece from it (that being the Ride of the Valkyries), great as it is, doesn't even make it into the top ten moments from the drama!

 

I mean, there's all the love music from Act one, there's the Todesverkundingungscena, "hehrestes wunder!" and Wotans Abscheid! Its a treasure-trove!

 

To be completely fair, when I first saw Die Walkure (the Chereau staging) the incest turned-me off. But even in that first time, when I got to Wotan's farewell to his daughter I knew I witnessed something monumental. Since then, its steadily grown to be one of my absolute favourite works of drama and music: I don't think its as great as Tristan, but its up there.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

@bollemanneke, have you listened to Maazel's The Ring without Words? A nice destillation.

 

 

 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Ooh, will check it out!

[Chen G. 3,943]

5 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

@bollemanneke, have you listened to Maazel's The Ring without Words? A nice destillation.

 

I'm not a huge fan of The Ring Without Words, I'm sad to say.

 

It comes across as less of a distillation of the Ring and more as a "greatest hits" of the Ring: like, why is Donner's summoning of the lighting there instead of more stuff from Die Walkure, for instance?

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

That's in the non-Donner cut.

[Chen G. 3,943]

Its funny, though: Donner's summoning of lightning is in effect an aria, which is the one thing Wagner says he won't do in The Ring. Now, I get that, say, by the time he wrote the Wintersturme (which is also an aria) or certainly "Ewig war ich" he would have left this this principle behind, by this is in Das Rheingold (as is Loge's monologue, which is also an aria) so its kind of puzzling.

 

I mean, its a great piece of music, but its nowhere near as rapturous as Wintersturme and certainly nowhere near as significant to the Ring going forward as is "Du bist der Lenz." Its just a setpiece.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

You should read the booklet notes of the Maazel recording. There he explains his choices.

[Chen G. 3,943]

I'll look it up.

 

But then, to me the point of music-drama is that its to be seen, not just heard, and this is especially true of Die Walkure: a well-staged, well-acted Walkure has the power of a great stageplay. Combined with the music, its utterly overwhelming.

 

For instance, this staging: https://my.mail.ru/list/romankova.larisa/video/_myvideo/3467.html Like, it would have been powerful just as a spoken play! But with the music...!

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Its funny, though: Donner's summoning of lightning is in effect an aria, which is the one thing Wagner says he won't do in The Ring. Now, I get that, say, by the time he wrote the Wintersturme (which is also an aria) or certainly "Ewig war ich" he would have left this this principle behind, by this is in Das Rheingold (as is Loge's monologue, which is also an aria) so its kind of puzzling.

 

I mean, its a great piece of music, but its nowhere near as rapturous as Wintersturme and certainly nowhere near as significant to the Ring going forward as is "Du bist der Lenz." Its just a setpiece.

 

I think it's usually included when selecting the Rheingold finale as an excerpt. I guess it's just more awkward to find a matching entry point after Donner's bit. Also, I'd say it's too short to outright call it an aria. And it's almost his only line!

[Chen G. 3,943]

6 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

I think it's usually included when selecting the Rheingold finale as an excerpt. I guess it's just more awkward to find a matching entry point after Donner's bit.

But that’s just it: Mazeel doesn’t include the whole finale: he includes only Donner’s bit.  Instead of that, I’d have included more stuff from the opening scene, especially the girls call of “Rheingold! Rheingold!” the thematic transformation of which is at the heart of the cycle.

 

Like I said, it works more to the effect of reducing the Ring to a series of “numbers” (which is exactly what Wagner tried NOT to do) then to really give us an abstract of the musical storytelling of the Ring.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Chen is that rare Wagner fan who actually likes the dramas.

It's all about the orchestral pieces for me.

Maybe, if they sang in Italian I would like them more.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

6 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Chen is that rare Wagner fan who actually likes the dramas.

It's all about the orchestral pieces for me.

Maybe, if they sang in Italian I would like them more.

 

So you're with the Kapellmeister on the question of German Vs. Italian opera

 

[Loert 2,510]

4 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Stravinsky you cray-cray

 

He doesn't give us pianists an easy time, that's for sure...

0:33 - such anguish!

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

It comes across as less of a distillation of the Ring and more as a "greatest hits" of the Ring: like, why is Donner's summoning of the lighting there instead of more stuff from Die Walkure, for instance?

 

I actually made my own "greatest hits" of the Ring a few years ago.

 

It's 9 hours long.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

But that’s just it: Mazeel doesn’t include the whole finale: he includes only Donner’s bit.  Instead of that, I’d have included more stuff from the opening scene, especially the girls call of “Rheingold! Rheingold!” the thematic transformation of which is at the heart of the cycle.

 

That's odd. All excerpts I know go from there to the end of Rheingold.

 

On the other hand, most orchestral excerpts I've heard don't work all that well, at least if they go beyond the usual blockbuster hits and try to present multiple sections as something with an arc… which they usually end up lacking.

 

42 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Chen is that rare Wagner fan who actually likes the dramas.

It's all about the orchestral pieces for me.

 

Rare? I don't know any Wagner fans who only like simplified orchestral highlight compilations. That's like Williams fans only liking the Star Wars concert suite and Hedwig's Theme.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

" Simplified?"😗

[Chen G. 3,943]

The enjoyment one derives of a Wagner drama depends on the drama and on how it’s done: Parsifal, for instance, wouldn’t work as a spoken play in the way that Walkure could: it needs the music.

 

And it also depends on the staging and the cast: with some Wagnerian acting-singers (Waltraud Meier comes to mind) you really feel that you have seen a great play ontop of the great musicianship; whereas with others its more "park n' bark."

[bruce marshall 1,315]

For me, the music conveys the drama and emotion.

Like an oratorio.

 

I can't imagine sitting thru four hours of a theatrical ppresentation, especially with all that sing-spiel ( ugh!I😉

But, then again, I've never attended one in person.

Tbh almost every 18th and 19th century opera fails as drama, in my opinion.

The formula for tragedies gets tiresome. Like, their Shakespearean models.

6 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

That's odd. All excerpts I know go from there to the end of Rheingold.

 

On the other hand, most orchestral excerpts I've heard don't work all that well, at least if they go beyond the usual blockbuster hits and try to present multiple sections as something with an arc… which they usually end up lacking.

 

 

Rare? I don't know any Wagner fans who only like simplified orchestral highlight compilations. That's like Williams fans only liking the Star Wars concert suite and Hedwig's Theme.

Well, I do  enjoy some pieces with the vocal accompaniment as well!😊

[Naïve Old Fart 9,498]

7 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Whoa! Brian May is looking old!

[Chen G. 3,943]

59 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Tbh almost every 18th and 19th century opera fails as drama, in my opinion.

 

They do.

 

Except Wagner's.

 

Flying Dutchman can come-across a little bit hokey, but otherwise his dramaturgy is excellent

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Currently listening to this. Very enjoyable!

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

 

They do.

 

Except Wagner's.

 

Flying Dutchman can come-across a little bit hokey, but otherwise his dramaturgy is excellent

I don't claim any expertise on the librettos or stagecraft of 19th Century opera.😊

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

11 hours ago, Chen G. said:

But that’s just it: Mazeel doesn’t include the whole finale: he includes only Donner’s bit.  Instead of that, I’d have included more stuff from the opening scene, especially the girls call of “Rheingold! Rheingold!” the thematic transformation of which is at the heart of the cycle.

 

I see you still haven't read the booklet...

[bollemanneke 3,337]

I just finished listening to 2 Tchaikovsky/Karajan CDs.

 

The string serenade was quite good, but definitely became less interesting after the first two movements.

 

I was then really surprised to find that symphony 4 really did not work for me at all after being so blown away by the 5^th and 6^th. Same goes for the slave march, the Italian capriccio and the 1812 overture (noise and more noise there). Yes, I know what it all means, but I still don’t like it.

 

Then, Romeo and Juliet. Speechless yet again, but how unfortunate that that lovely woodwind idea in the beginning wasn’t used again. I need to listen to all three versions now.

 

And finally, the nutcracker suite. Speechless yet again, even more so because I just listened to the entire ballet during a drive and was amazed to discover most of it was rather boring.

 

Also, Williams is such a hack. Hedwig’s theme is clearly a sugarplum rip-off, I’m going to burn my HP1 material right now! But on a more serious note, the only negative remark about the recording is this: why does Karajan have the celeste play at a really high octave? I prefer it to play in the Hedwig’s theme one, not this high. What did Tchaikovsky actually want himself?

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

38 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

I prefer it to play in the Hedwig’s theme one, not this high

 

It pays to mention that most of the Celesta writing in Williams is for synth Celesta, as opposed to an actual Celesta. Its a very different sound.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Fair enough, but does that have anything to do with the octave? Karajan makes it sound like a glockenspiel, which really doesn't work.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

1 hour ago, bollemanneke said:

why does Karajan have the celeste play at a really high octave? I prefer it to play in the Hedwig’s theme one, not this high. What did Tchaikovsky actually want himself?

 

I don't know the answer, but here's some related information I've found. It might have to do something with written vs concert pitch.

 

Wikipedia says:

Quote

The celesta is a transposing instrument; it sounds one octave higher than the written pitch. Its four-octave sounding range is generally considered to be C4 to C8. The fundamental frequency of 4186 Hz makes this one of the highest pitches in common use. The original French instrument had a five-octave range, but because the lowest octave was considered somewhat unsatisfactory, it was omitted from later models. The standard French four-octave instrument is now gradually being replaced in symphony orchestras by a larger, five-octave German model. 

 

A related, unanswered question:

Quote

Is the celeste part in Tchaikovsky Dance of The Sugar Plum Fairy meant to sound at pitch written and hence played an octave lower or is played at written pitch (sounding an octave higher) ? If played at written pitch what happens when it goes up an octave towards the end as most celestes don't go that high?

 

When he has the celesta play higher at the beginning, Karajan does keep the pitch the same at the end (instead of going yet an octave higher), so it can't be a mere confusion of written vs concert pitch. Perhaps the sheet music was inconsistent in the mid 20th century? Perhaps especially in central Europe related to German five-octave celestas?

 

In any case, he didn't always have it play that high, and he wasn't the only one either:

 

That video contains 8 different recordings of the Berliner Philharmoniker (time stamps are linked in the video's description):

①  0:00  Herbert von Karajan; Philharmonia Orchestra  1952
②  1:58  Herbert von Karajan; Wiener Philharmoniker  1961
③  3:33  Herbert von Karajan; Berliner Philharmoniker  1966
④  5:30  Herbert von Karajan; Berliner Philharmoniker  1982
⑤  7:07  Hans Knappertsbusch; Berliner Philharmoniker  1950Live
⑥  8:46  Mstislav Rostropovich; Berliner Philharmoniker  1978
⑦10:54  Seiji Ozawa; Berliner Philharmoniker  1993Live
⑧12:40  Simon Rattle; Berliner Philharmoniker  2009Live

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

Curiously enough... I've just listened to the Chereau/Boulez Siegfried. I don't hide the fact that Siegfried may be my least favourite of the mature Wagner ouvre - one really needs to be in the right mood for Siegfried to click. Fortunately, today was such a day and while its just not as good as Walkure (what is?), Gotterdamerung or even Rheingold, goddamit there are wonders in this! The sylvan splendour of act II alone is enough to make one swoon.

 

Like I said, this is the Chereau/Boulez Jahrhundredring, and Manfred Jung is far from my favourite Siegfried vocally, but on the whole he does well with one of the most difficult roles in the repertoire. Physically, he's pretty expressive, but he's guilty of mugging for the camera a little bit. Great to see more of McIntyre's Wotan and Brecht's Alberich! And of course act three is just maniacially joyful!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Listening to Wagner's orchestral music with vocal accompianament ( TRISTAN, Walkure..)is like listening to " The Flying Sequence" with Margot Kidder reciting her lyrics.

😅

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

Tristan and Siegfried are unusual cases in that Wagner placed unreasonable vocal demands on his tenors: some people believe there's not really been a single good Siegfried since Lauritz Melchior stopped singing. I don't entirely agree, but its clear Wagner expected too much of his tenor there.

 

By contrast, Siegmund is fairly easy to sing: its such a low tenor role that even baritones can do it well! Its yet another reason why Die Walkure is the best of the cycle: its the one that's easiest to make work well.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

6 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Listening to Wagner's orchestral music with vocal accompianament ( TRISTAN, Walkure..)is like listening to " The Flying Sequence" with Margot Kidder reciting her lyrics.

😅

 

If you call Wagner's stage works orchestral music with vocal accompaniment, the fitting comparison would be calling Williams's music the musical accompaniment to Kidder reciting a poem.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Do we need to quarantine y'all in a separate Wagner thread?  For the people who couldn't care less about his wearisome operas.  

[Chen G. 3,943]

Music dramas, Disco Stu, they're music dramas!

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

51 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Do we need to quarantine y'all in a separate Wagner thread?  For the people who couldn't care less about his wearisome operas.  

 

Shall we start ranting about Copland to force the creation of an entire sub forum? 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

33 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Shall we start ranting about Copland to force the creation of an entire sub forum? 

 

If you've never heard Ned Rorem's bit about how literally everything in the universe can be classified as either French or German, you should. "Everything is either French or German, and if you disagree with me, it simply means you're German."  My aesthetic allegiance comes down on the French side.

 

Copland is French (metaphorically) and hoo boy you don't get more German than Wagner.   American music is by and large very French influenced, which really comes down to chance that when it was coming into its own was right after WWI and anti-German sentiment was high, so Copland and his followers studied in France with Boulanger (or Dukas) instead of in Germany or Austria.

 

starting at 3:16 here.  I like "Schubert is French, and Berlioz is German, if you see what I mean."

 

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

29 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

hoo boy you don't get more German than Wagner.

 

Wagner is an international creator: almost all his works were created outside of Germany and, with the exception of Tannhauser and Meistersinger, all his works take place in places other than Germany: Dutchman takes place in Norway, Lohengrin in Belgium, The Ring in the primordial Rhine valley, Tristan in Cornwall, Parsifal in Spain, etcetra and, again with the exception of Meistersinger, none of them deal with themes that somehow exclude non-Germans.

 

Indeed, the very first country where Wagnerism sprouted was not Germany: it was France!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Wagner is an international creator: almost all his works were created outside of Germany and, with the exception of Tannhauser and Meistersinger, all his works take place in places other Germany: Dutchman takes place in Norway, Lohengrin in Belgium, The Ring in the primordial Rhine valley, Tristan in Cornwall, Parsifal in Spain, etc..

 

Indeed, the very first country where Wagnerism sprouted was not Germany: it was France!

 

This obtuse mis-reading of the metaphor just means you're German

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

21 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

If you've never heard Ned Rorem's bit about how literally everything in the universe can be classified as either French or German, you should. "Everything is either French or German, and if you disagree with me, it simply means you're German."  My aesthetic allegiance comes down on the French side.

 

I imagine there's some truth in that, and I probably fall mostly on the German side of things (see also my love for Tolkien), although an interesting mix is always a good thing. However, I'm from Vienna, and in all things music, we have already have the Wagner/Brahms divide, so any concerns of nationality are subordinate to that. 

 

21 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Copland is French (metaphorically) and hoo boy you don't get more German than Wagner.   […]  I like "Schubert is French, and Berlioz is German, if you see what I mean."

 

That's interesting, because Wagner is of course in very many ways quintessentially German, and Bruckner was - consciously and intentionally - most strongly influenced by Wagner, and yet there's also a very strong (and also conscious, as far as I know) Schubert influence in his music.

[Chen G. 3,943]

All I know is Lohengrin - Wagner's most popular opera - is one of the most Italianate works ever written by anyone.

 

And lor knows the French went nuts for its prequel, Parsifal.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

All I know is Lohengrin - Wagner's most popular opera - is one of the most Italianate works ever written by anyone.

 

Maybe (though most of Tannhäuser, or what little I remember from it aside from the overture/Pilgrim's choir - fun to sing by the way - seems more French to me). But there's little even in Wagner's output that's more German than this:

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

16 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

though most of Tannhäuser, or what little I remember from it aside from the overture/Pilgrim's choir - fun to sing by the way - seems more French to me

 

The influence of the Parisian operas of his time is still appearant in Tannhäuser (possibly Wagner's most mixed-bag work) and Dutchman; and of course the former was later revised with the purpose of being staged in Paris.

 

But you just can't beat Lohengrin for lyricism. Its the most gorgeous "fairytale music" ever written.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

So now Disco has revivified the Wagner discussions in this thread.

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

Disco Stu be like "Der Fluch, den ich floh, nicht flieht er nun mich!"

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

Returning to decidedly French territory with a classic… back in Berlin I picked up Karajan's 1964 recording of La mer with the Berliner Philharmoniker:

 

 

I've always been a fan of a few highlight moments, but I found the work as a whole on the meandering side and hadn't actively listened to it in years. I don't know if it's my matured (?) musical tastes or something in Karajan's recording, but I now find the whole thing gorgeous from beginning to end. Perhaps there's still hope for me and impressionism (which I've usually only been able to appreciate in small to mid-sized doses).

 

Also, rediscovering it after such a long time, I find the influence it had on virtually *everything* since that musically (at least with an orchestra) portrays the sea astounding.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

28 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

So now Disco has revivified the Wagner discussions in this thread.

 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

All I know is Lohengrin - Wagner's most popular opera - is one of the most Italianate works ever written by anyone.

 

And lor knows the French went nuts for its prequel, Parsifal.

And the French/VICHY were also the only collaborationist government during WWII.

😎

Getting Chen to say anything negative about Wagner' music dramas is like getting Bellosh to say anything negative about William's INDY scores.

[Chen G. 3,943]

You're forgetting Croatia, but nevermind.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Not really.

They were pro- Fascist to begin with😉

[Chen G. 3,943]

25 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Getting Chen to say anything negative about Wagner' music dramas

 

I have my reservations: I think Siegfried is overly-long and places unfair demands on its tenor, often resulting in a subpar performance. I think Tannhauser is a very uneven work, and obviousy much of Wagner's first three works (Die Feen, Das Liebesverbot and Rienzi) is vapid.

 

Even works which I absolutely love and adore like Walkure and Tristan are not perfect as such: Walkure plays on the "sister-bride" card a couple of times too many, as does Tristan with all the yearning for death. The end of Lohengrin, too, is a touch too despairing for my tastes.

 

Still, in those works (and others like Gotterdamerung, Rheingold, Meistersinger, Dutchman and Parsifal), the coming together of dramaturgy and music is more often than not sublime.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I still haven't investigated PARSIFAL beyond the excerpts.

But, I suffered thru most of the others in college , on record, because I felt I had to.

😆