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What is the last piece of classical music you listened to?


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Parsifal is very...different, from a dramaturgical standpoint. I won't say (as some do) that nothing happens in it, but its certainly very...lets just say meditative.

 

If you like Lohengrin and Tristan you'll probably enjoy Parsifal, which draws heavily on both of those works:

 

 

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I plan on watching a filmed concert version soon

29 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Parsifal is very...different, from a dramaturgical standpoint. I won't say (as some do) that nothing happens in it, but its certainly very...lets just say meditative.

 

If you like Lohengrin and Tristan you'll probably enjoy Parsifal, which draws heavily on both of those works:

 

 

I'm currently on chapter NINE! Lohengrin.

Screenshot_2021-12-11-14-12-47.png

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On 11/12/2021 at 5:48 AM, Chen G. said:

Tristan and Siegfried are unusual cases in that Wagner placed unreasonable vocal demands on his tenors: some people believe there's not really been a single good Siegfried since Lauritz Melchior stopped singing. I don't entirely agree, but its clear Wagner expected too much of his tenor there.

 

By contrast, Siegmund is fairly easy to sing: its such a low tenor role that even baritones can do it well! Its yet another reason why Die Walkure is the best of the cycle: its the one that's easiest to make work well.

As you are obviously well versed in Wagner, I have a serious question.

Can you tell the male vocalists apart?.

They all sound alike to me!

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You mean, the different roles? I mean, the first act of Siegfried is mostly sung by two tenors, and Das Rheingold is brimming was bass-baritones. But I think its fair to say you could never confuse Fasolt for Wotan: they sing completely different music.

 

As of distinguishing certain singers, I sometimes can and sometimes can't; it depends: I can always pick-out Matti Salminen and a few other prominent Wagnerian singers. But suppose I couldn't, is it necessarily a bad thing if the singers disappear into their roles?

 

 

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Just wondering if the casting of the singers makes a big difference to the afficianados. Or, are they secondary to the orchestra's importance and considered  interchangeable in Wagner's work.

Italian opera seems to have a cult of personality when it comes to singers.

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2 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Just wondering if the casting of the singers makes a big difference to the afficianados

 

Its INCREDIBLY important, for any number of reasons. The one is that some of the Wagnerian roles are very difficult, and take a great, seasoned singer to simply bring them off on the most basic level: I've already mentioned Tristan (which is hard), Siegfried (which is nigh-impossible) but also Tannhauser and several of the major female leads: only great, great singers can do an Isolde or a Brunhilde any justice.

 

Another reason is that - Lohengrin notwithstanding - Wagner writes well-round, fleshed-out people, and it takes a singer with great intelligence and interperative skills to bring-out the subtleties of his characters' psyches in the singing.

 

And this extends to the physical acting on the stage: Wagner's complex characters demand acting singers, who can actually perform their parts on the stage while singing it, rather than just "park 'n bark." Its why I prefer the Chereau Ring to the Kupfer Ring: the acting is more naturalistic.

 

If they can also look the part (which sadly is seldom the case) then all the better. Annette Dasch looks like you want an Elsa to look, and in her heyday Waltraud Meier looked like you'd want Isolde to look.

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4 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

I figured any and all Wagnerian singers were qualified

 

Qualified?

 

In opera, it's always first and foremost about the singers. Wagner and his successors (e.g. Strauss & Co) increased the demands on them because acting became important (as Chen mentioned), and Wagner probably more than almost everyone also put extreme demands on their vocal capabilities. You'll often find a Wagner opera with a good, or excellent, or even outstanding orchestra, but you'll rarely find one with a cast that's successful in every role, not to mention very good or outstanding. If you want a really good Brünnhilde, you'll find you only have a handful of sopranos to choose from, worldwide. One of the best of our time, or at least 10 years ago when I last heard her in the role, is Nina Stemme (she was scheduled to return to the full Ring in Vienna last year, with an overall excellent cast, but that fell through due to the pandemic). A season before or after her, at the same houses, you'll find the role sung by someone else who has trouble with the high notes, or doesn't have the volume necessary to carry over the orchestra, or can't pronounce the lyrics well enough, or can't act, or has trouble hitting a straight note half of the time. And that's just "objective" qualities - add different vocal colours matching different roles, sometimes more or less objectively, and then add personal preference. I've heard Renée Fleming sing Strauss live several times - she's a very good singer, but I'm not overly fond of her voice, and I find she really struggles with Strauss' lyrics, to the point where I often actively dislike her performance. On the other hand, you'll hardly find another soprano you could even slightly confuse with Gundula Janowitz's uniquely pure voice. Calling the singers secondary in opera is very much like calling the actors secondary in a stage play.

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51 minutes ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Qualified?

 

In opera, it's always first and foremost about the singers. Wagner and his successors (e.g. Strauss & Co) increased the demands on them because acting became important (as Chen mentioned), and Wagner probably more than almost everyone also put extreme demands on their vocal capabilities. You'll often find a Wagner opera with a good, or excellent, or even outstanding orchestra, but you'll rarely find one with a cast that's successful in every role, not to mention very good or outstanding. If you want a really good Brünnhilde, you'll find you only have a handful of sopranos to choose from, worldwide. One of the best of our time, or at least 10 years ago when I last heard her in the role, is Nina Stemme (she was scheduled to return to the full Ring in Vienna last year, with an overall excellent cast, but that fell through due to the pandemic). A season before or after her, at the same houses, you'll find the role sung by someone else who has trouble with the high notes, or doesn't have the volume necessary to carry over the orchestra, or can't pronounce the lyrics well enough, or can't act, or has trouble hitting a straight note half of the time. And that's just "objective" qualities - add different vocal colours matching different roles, sometimes more or less objectively, and then add personal preference. I've heard Renée Fleming sing Strauss live several times - she's a very good singer, but I'm not overly fond of her voice, and I find she really struggles with Strauss' lyrics, to the point where I often actively dislike her performance. On the other hand, you'll hardly find another soprano you could even slightly confuse with Gundula Janowitz's uniquely pure voice. Calling the singers secondary in opera is very much like calling the actors secondary in a stage play.

 

Gundula Janowitz! What a voice. Her Sieglinde is under-rated.

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10 minutes ago, blondheim said:

Gundula Janowitz! What a voice.

 

To me, the most beautiful of all singing voices. My favourite recordings of hers are Strauss's Ariadne and Vier letzte Lieder, and Mendelssohn's Paulus.

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1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

I became a fan of Anna Prohaska after hearing her on Rufus Wainwright's great Shakespeare album, she was very much the highlight of the whole project for me.

 

 

 

I love Rufus Wainwright.

Just now, Marian Schedenig said:

 

To me, the most beautiful of all singing voices. My favourite recordings of hers are Strauss's Ariadne and Vier letzte Lieder, and Mendelssohn's Paulus.

 

If I had to make a list of the all-time greatest voices, she would be one of the first I thought of. I discovered her through her famous Dulcissime on Jochum's Carmina Burana and then Karajan's Ring was my first so I also am utterly captivated by her voice. She transports you, which is a quality one can't ascribe to too many singers.

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4 minutes ago, blondheim said:

 

I love Rufus Wainwright.

 

He’s an incredible songwriter who I think could actually be a great film composer if he wanted.  Like Randy Newman he has an inherent sense of character and narrative to his music.

 

Not totally sold on his full length operas though if I’m honest 

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17 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

 

He’s an incredible songwriter who I think could actually be a great film composer if he wanted.  Like Randy Newman he has an inherent sense of character and narrative to his music.

 

Not totally sold on his full length operas though if I’m honest 

 

I haven't heard it, although I keep meaning to. I was religiously dedicated to Want Vol. 1 & 2 in the mid-noughts.

 

I totally agree about seeing him break out into film and his character-driven music.

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7 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

In opera, it's always first and foremost about the singers.

 

Bruce does have a point insofar that Wagner, while he does sometimes put huge demands on the voice and asks a lot of his acting-singers in terms of interpertation, his works are not about vocal display (at least, by way of coloratura) and the orchestra is of great importance because it tells you things the characters on-stage are not privvy to.

 

But then, that also proves your point in that - because the orchestra is an active storytelling tool in Wagner, more often than not its not playing the same music as what the singers are singing, which is why the singers need the kind of volume to punch through over the orchestra, in a way that you don't in Verdi.

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Listened to Tchaikovsky's first symphony this morning.  Much of the criticism I see seems to focus on his grappling with traditional forms.  Form is always pretty secondary to my enjoyment of a symphony, but frankly the themes just aren't that interesting IMO.

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46 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Listened to Tchaikovsky's first symphony this morning.  Much of the criticism I see seems to focus on his grappling with traditional forms.  Form is always pretty secondary to my enjoyment of a symphony, but frankly the themes just aren't that interesting IMO.

I have to admit that I don't get a huge amount out of his first three symphonies (similar feelings about Dvorak's first few as well I have to say). They are well wrought and sound lovely, but can't match the later ones.

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43 minutes ago, Tom Guernsey said:

similar feelings about Dvorak's first few as well I have to say

 

I have a huge soft spot for Dvorak's first symphony especially (see also: his first piano trio).  Dvorak is my favorite 19th century composer though.  For me, his extraordinary gift for themes was there right from the start, he just naturally had a gift for musical narrative, a sense of drama.

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The slow movement of Copland’s Violin Sonata is so spare it’s practically skeletal.  For some reason, when I listen to it I get this image of standing on the surface of the moon, in a space suit, watching the slow Earthrise.

 

It has this beautiful feeling of complete solitude without despair

 


I get a similar feeling from the final movement of his Piano Quartet, which I consider one of his true masterpieces.  Although this definitely has a touch of the despair absent from the Violin Sonata.

 

 

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I discovered a new baroque conductor: Alfredo Bernardini. His Handel recordings are mind-blowing!

 

And I listened to the first part of Das Rheingold (Karajan, 67). Much more exciting than die Walküre. You genuinely feel that things are happening in the music and the voices, the latter were really interesting. I first thought Gerhard Stolze was a woman. Such a hybrid voice. And this time I was able to recognise loads of motifs.

 

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Stolze was perfect for that kind of role. Fischer-Dieskau as Wotan is also pure luxury casting. "Much more exciting"… well, it's the easiest to get into. Actually, Die Walküre took me (rather unusually) the longest of the four. But the Ring cycle really is a work that rewards listening over and over and over and over again. For me, there were many "oh wow" moments after years, and then you begin to realise the depth of the whole thing. Seeing it staged live (and with all the leitmotifs printed in the programme booklet) also helps.

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Its probably best to start on Wagner with Lohengrin, his most popular work.

 

I happen to think Tristan is his best - better than the Ring - but that one REALLY takes some getting into!

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Well, Meistersinger is the longest work in the repertoire: some 4.5-5 hours. The length is definitely daunting, but its one of mankind's most joyous works: its delightful!

 

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Famously not, as far as I know. But they have extra long intermissions.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Its probably best to start on Wagner with Lohengrin, his most popular work.

 

My first was Holländer, and I think that was the ideal starting point. It may be more traditional, but it's also brisker (and overall more exciting).

 

30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I happen to think Tristan is his best - better than the Ring - but that one REALLY takes some getting into!

 

Still working on that. Or rather, I'm not - the few times I've listened to it, it did nothing for me - but I probably should. Seeing it live would help, I guess, but it's hard to commit to standing area tickets for a lengthy Wagner opera that I've so far found hard to get through even on CD. ;)

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Yesterday I experienced Mahler's 3rd symphony live in the Berliner Philharmonie. Really an impressive body of work. The live performance was more than brillant. About a hundred minutes of nonstop music.

But I think, nothing I would listen to at home from CD.

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4 hours ago, blondheim said:

Has anyone hear listened to enough Mahler 8s to dish about different versions?

As big of a Mahler fan as I am, I have struggled to find compelling performances of this symphony. Kent Nagano's version with the German Symphony Berlin is extremely good, and the only one I tend to recommend to people. Conductors I find best on the other symphonies (Bernstein, Rattle, Jansons) seem lost with the 8th sometimes. I could be wrong though, I should give them another listen.

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9 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

My first was Holländer, and I think that was the ideal starting point. It may be more traditional, but it's also brisker (and overall more exciting).

 

Oh sure, Flying Dutchman is also a good starting point.

 

It already started doing away with the feeling of numbers, especially when its presented in one act.

 

But I have a huge soft spot for Lohengrin. Its some of the preetiest "fairytale" music ever written.

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

Oh sure, Flying Dutchman is also a good starting point.

 

It already started doing away with the feeling of numbers, especially when its presented in one act.

 

I'm so used to the three act version I grew up with (Sawallisch's Bayreuth live recording) that I'm not sure how much I like the one act version. But it's confusing how many different versions there are - I have four on CD (Sawallisch, Klemperer (both with Anja Silja), Karajan (so dynamically recorded that you can barely hear anything), and Barenboim (would be very good but it held back by a lousy Senta)) - and they all differ in the endings and/or transitions between the (not) acts.

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As far as I know there are only two versions of Flying Dutchman: the three-acter, and the one-act with the Tristan-esque cadence tacked-on at the end; both are wonderful.

 

The same could not be said for Tannhauser, which was revised multiple times and of which every performed or record version is somekind of hybrid; its Wagner's most flawed work.

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15 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

As far as I know there are only two versions of Flying Dutchman: the three-acter, and the one-act with the Tristan-esque cadence tacked-on at the end; both are wonderful.

 

There's the one-acter and the three-acter, the version with Erlösungsmotiv and without, and at least the ending of the overture differs as well. Presumably, various combinations of these elements have been used, so you end up with a higher number of differing versions. Plus apparently Senta's aria used to be transposed down from Wagner's original score even by himself (at the premiere or shortly thereafter, I don't remember), because it was too high for his soprano at the time, and for some reason that change was assumed to be authoritative (instead of just being a quick fix for an insufficient singer), so that was how it was performed until Silja first sang the original version at Bayreuth in the 60s (the Sawallisch is a recording of the premiere I think).

 

15 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

The same could not be said for Tannhauser, which was revised multiple times and of which every performed or record version is somekind of hybrid; its Wagner's most flawed work.

 

But that at least officially has different versions that have long been labelled as such. With Holländer, I wasn't even aware of the one-acter until the original version was performed at the Vienna State Opera in the earlier 2000s. They made quite a fuzz around it being a very rare staging of the original, but I don't remember now if there were more differences than the 1-act structure and (presumably) the missing Erlösungsmotiv.

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9 hours ago, GerateWohl said:

Yesterday I experienced Mahler's 3rd symphony live in the Berliner Philharmonie. Really an impressive body of work. The live performance was more than brillant. About a hundred minutes of nonstop music.

But I think, nothing I would listen to at home from CD.

 

I do it at least a half-dozen times a year

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12 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Has there ever been translated versions into Italian, French or English?

 

The "Paris" Tannhauser was done in French, and any German versions of it are backwards-engineered into German.

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