What is the last piece of classical music you listened to?

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Terrible bad, and it's weird because the soloists do a great job.

[Bespin 8,480]

7 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Terrible bad, and it's weird because the soloists do a great job.

 

I love Karajan, but I would never listen to him conducting a Bach work.

 

It maybe a "too english" approach (and their latin is bad... but who speak latin these days???), but I tend to go with Gardiner when we talk about Bach's sacred works.

 

There is also Herreweghe, he's belgian.

 

Two great conductors for Bach's cantatas and sacred works.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

Terribly outdated.

[Bespin 8,480]

Well I'm outdated.

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

9 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Bach, St Matthew's passion, Karajan. That choir is just... terrible.

 

I haven't heard it. The soloist cast looks good (and Janowitz is always a big plus), but I'd expect Karajan's very Romantic, hardly historically informed style to be quite at odds with anything pre-(at least)-Classical. And choirs from before the 80s (?) are generally considered to be deficient, at least for this kind of repertoire (where intonation, precision, and overall aesthetics of sound matter more than sheer mass and power).

[Bespin 8,480]

Baroque music needs to remain... baroque!

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Stick with the Schreier St. Matthew.  Classic.

 

[Bespin 8,480]

What?

[karelm 2,903]

This was from a great concert at the LA Phil.  

 

Strauss, Smith, and Salonen
Los Angeles Philharmonic
Esa-Pekka Salonen, conductor
James McVinnie, organ
Gabriela Peña-Kim, violin (for JS Bach)

JS Bach Prelude from Partita No. 3 in E major, BWV 1006 <- Masterpiece and the very first piece ever performed in the still under construction Disney Hall by orchestra's concert master.  The audience members were only Disney Hall's architect, Frank Gehry, and LA Phil conductor, Salonen.  
Esa-Pekka Salonen Fog (U.S. premiere of orchestral version) <- a reimagining of the JS Bach piece and dedicated to architect Frank Owen Gehry (FOG).  
Gabriella Smith  Breathing Forests (world premiere, LA Phil commission) <- Fantastic and intense organ concerto!!
Richard Strauss Also Sprach Zarathustra <- Fantastic!!

[bruce marshall 1,315]

12 hours ago, bollemanneke said:

Bach, St Matthew's passion, Karajan. That choir is just... terrible.

Bach is my favorite composer but the SMP is just too liturgical for me.

😎

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

Fire Water Paper: A Vietnam Oratorio (Elliot Goldenthal) - Definitely one of those early purchases during my film music (and associated crossover works) that was perhaps a bit too challenging for my tastes at the time. It's still not an easy work, but with the benefit of a greater exploration of 20th century classical, this time I found it compelling and thrilling. Glad to have finally revisited it.

 

I also did well at the Oxfam music store in Southampton... plenty to enjoy this week (just as well as I also brought back a dose of covid with me...).

 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

On 06/02/2022 at 12:31 AM, bruce marshall said:

According to this course, Stravinsky was worried that the NAZIS- thinking he was Jewish- would ban his music.

Frightened of losing lucrative performance royalties he cravenly assured the leadership he wasn't Jewish.

 

Nice guy that Igor.😒

Contrast Igor to Hungarian Bela Bartok.

BB refused to perform in Germany after NAZIs came to power.

He left his home country when their Fascist govt.aligned with Germany .

A class act

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Fart's favorite composer.

😎

You know your in for torture when a composer titles a piece " Structures".

😝😵

 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

The Merry Widow. I'm loving this! Especially after Bach's lithurgical crap.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I tend to gravitate to English operettas (Victor Herbert, Sigmund Romberg, Gilbert & Sullivan), they're just more in the lineage of the 20s-40s Broadway musicals that I like, but I can dig a Viennese operetta if I'm in the right mood.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Yeah I just listened to that one because it was in my Karajan set, he didn't do any English ones I think.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Amusing Eric Whitaker parody  

 

 

[Loert 2,510]

On 11/03/2022 at 6:00 AM, bruce marshall said:

You know your in for torture when a composer titles a piece " Structures".

 

Well, at least it isn't lowercase and doesn't begin/end with ellipses.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

5 minutes ago, Loert said:

 

Well, at least it isn't lowercase and doesn't begin/end with ellipses.

Not sure what you mean.....😅

[Loert 2,510]

2 hours ago, bruce marshall said:

Not sure what you mean.....😅

 

I think titles like:

 

...structures...

 

are quite fashionable these days. Or:

 

...blue pandas, drifting down...

[michael_grig 464]

It's getting down to the ground: Beethoven No.9
I know Teodor Currentzis is sometimes criticized for his extreme emphasis, but when I heard this, I quickly realized that it's my new favorite recording of Beethoven's 9th so far. It's just so dynamic and really fun to listen to: this is what Beethoven's music deserves.

https://www.arte.tv/de/videos/107891-000-A/geburtstagskonzert-von-teodor-currentzis/

If the link from Arte does not work: 

 

 

[Bespin 8,480]

Do you know the symphonies cycle of Osmo Vanska with the Minnesota O?

[michael_grig 464]

No

 

 

[Bespin 8,480]

Well you talked about dynamic... I would add, an architect precision.

[bruce marshall 1,315]

2 hours ago, Loert said:

 

I think titles like:

 

...structures...

 

are quite fashionable these days. Or:

 

...blue pandas, drifting down...

....i thought you were referring to MY posts....

 

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Berg, three orchestral pieces. I have an idea. I'm going to be a composer too. I'll hire an orchestra and tell them: okay, just go nuts for 20 minutes, I don't really care what you're doing as long as you all agree to give each other some solo time and also, be really loud. Second Viennese school indeed...

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

22 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Second Viennese school indeed...

 

Throw in some flubs and timing issues in honour of the city.

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Impossible, I'm not going to have any basic tempo either.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Yeah the whole Schoenbergian "school" is maybe second to Nazism as Europe's greatest mistake of the 20th century.

[michael_grig 464]

Speaking of the Second Viennese School: I heard something by Schönberg earlier. But from when he was still a late Romantic.  "Verklärte Nacht" I kind of love it. Especially in the first part, where he twice resolves the dominant cadenza so uncharacteristically. Everything that comes after that on the album, yeah, is just hard to access. I still haven't found a personal approach to twelve-tone music, etc. Does anyone know of a good piece to get excited about it with? 

 

5 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Yeah the whole Schoenbergian "school" is maybe second to Nazism as Europe's greatest mistake of the 20th century.

WOW. This is inappropriate.

 

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

22 minutes ago, bollemanneke said:

Berg, three orchestral pieces.

 

Awesome!

 

On 11/03/2022 at 6:00 AM, bruce marshall said:

"Structures".

 

Even awesomer.

 

2 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Yeah the whole Schoenbergian "school" is maybe second to Nazism as Europe's greatest mistake of the 20th century.

 

That's pretty funny, though.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

Better go with the early Viennese school.

 

 

On 07/03/2022 at 1:38 PM, Tom Guernsey said:

Fire Water Paper: A Vietnam Oratorio (Elliot Goldenthal) - Definitely one of those early purchases during my film music (and associated crossover works) that was perhaps a bit too challenging for my tastes at the time. It's still not an easy work, but with the benefit of a greater exploration of 20th century classical, this time I found it compelling and thrilling. Glad to have finally revisited it.

 

I also did well at the Oxfam music store in Southampton... plenty to enjoy this week (just as well as I also brought back a dose of covid with me...).

 

 

 

Gergiev? Prepare to get banned!

 

Nice Mahler box, btw.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

10 minutes ago, Michael G. said:

I still haven't found a personal approach to twelve-tone music, etc. Does anyone know of a good piece to get excited about it with

 

Probably the most successfully emotionally expressive twelve-tone piece I know.  It's a masterpiece, but of course Copland didn't strictly adhere to the serial "rules."  As he says, he mostly used the system as a method of discovering harmonies he wouldn't naturally have used.

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

16 minutes ago, Michael G. said:

Does anyone know of a good piece to get excited about it with? 

 

This one's better than Copland.

 

 

 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Says you!

 

Anyway, while there are exceptions such as these, they prove the rule that serialism was a dead-end both artistically and intellectually and it's only terribly sad how so many potentially great artists frittered away their lives on it.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

The most interesting pieces, as these two show, are the ones that use serialism more as an inspiration rather than as strict rules.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

2 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

The most interesting pieces, as these two show, are the ones that use serialism more as an inspiration rather than as struct rules.

 

Yes, "systems" should always be subordinate to expression.

[Jurassic Shark 12,030]

Yeah, we don't want musical oppression.

[michael_grig 464]

Behave yourself, this is a political statement, is it????

[Tom Guernsey 2,280]

25 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Better go with the early Viennese school.

 

 

 

Gergiev? Prepare to get banned!

 

Nice Mahler box, btw.

Haha, yeah I actually thought twice about buying it, but it was from a charity shop so felt like an acceptable trade off... I don't actually like opera much but I do like Prokofiev so thought I'd give it a punt. As for the Mahler... I swore I wouldn't buy any more sets of his symphonies, but it was a bargain and I really like Haitink's Shostakovich so thought it was worth a punt. Only listened to the first symphony, but so far so good (not that I'm really that much of a connoisseur of Mahler performances...).

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

8 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Yes, "systems" should always be subordinate to expression.

 

There's no such thing as "expression" in the absense of any sort of system.

 

Sometimes the system will be more flexible; sometimes less so. Setting limits on how far it is appropriate to go (in either direction) is wrong-headed.

 

There's lots of amazing dodecaphonic (and, more generally, serial) music.

[Disco Stu 15,495]

I did say "subordinate to" not non-existent!

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

I'm saying that's impossible!

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Well, 12-tone is just like Esperanto, doomed to failure.  A person can't consciously create something like that and expect widespread adoption over time, systems of expression and communication must develop naturally over time.  Schoenberg's hubris!

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

...doomed to failure...

 

What is the standard for "success" here? Due to the works it has produced, apart from anything else, dodecaphony isn't a failure.

 

Quote

...systems of expression and communication must develop naturally over time.

 

No doubt this is generally how it happens. Saying they "must" is a step too far. Things can happen abruptly.

 

1 hour ago, Disco Stu said:

Schoenberg's hubris!

 

Well, Schoenberg did say that there was still lots of good music to be written in C major! It just wasn't working for him...

[Marian Schedenig 8,173]

1 hour ago, Michael G. said:

Speaking of the Second Viennese School: I heard something by Schönberg earlier. But from when he was still a late Romantic.  "Verklärte Nacht" I kind of love it. Especially in the first part, where he twice resolves the dominant cadenza so uncharacteristically.

 

Verklärte Nacht is gorgeous. I've had the Karajan recording of the string orchestra version for a few years, but I'm still missing a recording of the original version (at least I heard that live for the first time last autumn). Recommendations anyone?

 

1 hour ago, Michael G. said:

I still haven't found a personal approach to twelve-tone music, etc. Does anyone know of a good piece to get excited about it with?

 

It's also mostly unknown and scary territory for me, and nothing I know much about. Nor have I ever been clear on the distinction between "serial" music and strict twelve-tone music. But for some brilliant serial stuff, Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes is always welcome.

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

If we're including serialism more generally than 12-tone serialism, this is one of my favourite pieces ever (serial or otherwise):

 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

2 hours ago, Glóin the Dark said:

If we're including serialism more generally than 12-tone serialism, this is one of my favourite pieces ever (serial or otherwise):

 

 

Anybody who likes Boulez is either tone deaf or a fan of heavy metal😒

3 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

Well, 12-tone is just like Esperanto, doomed to failure.  A person can't consciously create something like that and expect widespread adoption over time, systems of expression and communication must develop naturally over time.  Schoenberg's hubris!

Well, it has ONE fan. And he's on this board!

 

Serialism is a music that , in the words of it's practitioner, must avoid personal expression.

Only abstraction is permissible. Emotional content is forbidden.

Scores are meant to be analyzed, not enjoyed as as art.

No consideration is to be made for the LISTENING AUDIENCE.

 

Twelve tone music all sounds as if it is in a minor key and can only express negative emotions,  in purest form.

 

If it wasn't for Film music it would have died long ago

2 hours ago, Marian Schedenig said:

 

Verklärte Nacht is gorgeous. I've had the Karajan recording of the string orchestra version for a few years, but I'm still missing a recording of the original version (at least I heard that live for the first time last autumn). Recommendations anyone?

 

 

It's also mostly unknown and scary territory for me, and nothing I know much about. Nor have I ever been clear on the distinction between "serial" music and strict twelve-tone music. But for some brilliant serial stuff, Goldsmith's Planet of the Apes is always welcome.

Verklakte Hecht is accessible. Later works , not so much.

 

Serialize and twelve tone are the same thing.

It's based on a simple principle : ALL notes must be played before any note can be repeated.

So, you don't have melodies in the traditional sense. Thus Every piece sounds  pretty much the same when it comes to themes. 

There is nothing for the audience to grab on to.

Serialism is even more abstract as there is no continuity whatsoever - even the twelve tone sequence constantly changes.

Yuk.

It is NOT the same as atonality

[Glóin the Dark 1,218]

29 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

Emotional content is forbidden.

 

There would be nothing wrong with that, if true. Emotion doesn't have to come in to everything.

 

Quote

Scores are meant to be analyzed, not enjoyed as as art.

 

Not sure who said that, but they were obviously wrong. Serial music is enjoyed by many.

 

Quote

Twelve tone music all sounds as if it is in a minor key

 

I don't see how it's possible to think that while understanding what constitutes the sound of a minor key. Nevertheless, there's nothing wrong with minor keys. To be honest, I'd say I prefer minor to major if pressed to make a choice.

 

Quote

Twelve tone music...can only express negative emotions

 

Didn't you just say it was forbidden from expressing any emotions?