SPOILER TALK: Avengers: Endgame

[crocodile 8,012]

OK so I watched it the second time. My first viewing was very fanboy-centric. This time I was looking at the film from a more distanced position.

 

It's enjoyable but far from perfect. It's just that it doesn't quite feel as lean or elegantly put together as some others (all three previous Marvel movies from Russo brothers for example). There isn't really anything wrong with it as such other than the fact that it is a film that tries to have a cake and eat it too. It is designed to please virtually everyone at once and that is a problem. It is simply not possible under the best of circumstances. That is why it tries to cram in as many elements as humanly possible. One of those things is a decision to use so many callbacks to previous Marvel films. Some of these land very well and help to complete character storylines but in some cases they fall bit flat. Black Widow's death, while not a bad scene in itself, was only a repeat of the same proposition from the previous film (even using the same music). Some story and character beats feel earned and while others bit too rushed and "constructed". Hawkeye's stint as Ronin is a cool one-shot scene but ultimately it serves very little purpose beyond stating what we can already gather from the opening scene and everything else that is happening in the world. And more than Infinity War, this film has a lot of characters delivering exposition through dialogue so that everyone (including their mother) can follow the story. It's all efficient and exciting enough...but not as balanced this time.

 

It is an interesting concept to "avenge" everyone in the first act and kill off Thanos there and then... That is a very neat twist and what follows in the next hour or so feels appropriately emotional and quite compelling. I do agree that it might be the best part of this picture actually. But then, they reintroduce a different Thanos. And yes, while it is certainly a "logical" thing to do within the same concept he doesn't have that presence anymore. As a result, the film doesn't really have a villain. So yeah, eat a cake and eat it too doesn't always work.

 

Time travel is always a problematic concept because of its implications. No matter how well you set it up it always feels off. Ultimately, you just sort of have to go with it as presented in the film because the concept itself is, by its very nature, completely nonsensical. I have hard time imagining how meddling with things like that can prevent there being any changes at all. It's sort of makes and does't make sense at the same time. And Captain's decision, while emotionally satisfying, is one of those trouble spots. I wonder whether it will have some sort of consequences for this universe in the future films?

 

And there's the question of scale. At some points going bigger with the story is going to harm it. You see, Infinity War storyline was cleverly split into smaller compartments in which the immense cast could get some breathing space and shine in a moment or two. Endgame doesn't feel as balanced in that respect. And yes, while the final battle is satisfying as a "fanboy" event it also uncovers certain flaws of massive crossover concept. A lot of the returning cast members receive a line or two in a glorified cameo where they do one tiny thing. And you know one of the cardinal rules of scriptwriting: if you need to thing of giving character "something to do" then that character shouldn't be there in the first place. But yeah, such is a nature of Marvel universe so there's no avoiding that. I suppose we've never seen a proper comic book battle so that's why the climax of Endgame sort of had to go there. It is also bit hard to imagine the stakes when you have so many huge things happening. What rules can you have in a film about magic stones controlling reality? Is it even possible for Tony and Rocket to build a new gauntlet to harness the energy at the centre of reality itself? People seem to be tossing the gauntlet around a lot in the final sequence and it doesn't affect them and yet in the previous film whenever someone touches it seems to perish.  And why does it always need to be a snap? At some point you just sort of need to go with it because there's no point considering the "logic" of it all.

 

What the film does very well though is to treat the original Avengers cast with a lot of heart and care. With all the narrative hoopla it sometimes might not be that elegant but all of them receive some sort of closure and Russo's make all the best stuff character-based. That is what this film needed to do, and most of these things it does well. That is why it is ultimately still very enjoyable. For what they were trying to do with this, and a franchise as a whole, it is a pretty good effort and I applaud the writers, producers and directors for juggling all of this mythology. But it is more of a rollercoaster ride rather than a piece of filmmaking.  At some point during the end credits, part of me started to wish they stopped making those right there. I sort of want to move on.  And I'm not entirely sure they wanted me to feel this way...

 

Karol

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

7 minutes ago, crocodile said:

What the film does very well though is to treat the original Avengers cast with a lot of heart and care. With all the narrative hoopla it sometimes might not be that elegant but all of them receive some sort of closure and Russo's make all the best stuff character-based. That is what this film needed to do

 

While that's true, a lot of it feels less motivated by narrative and more by contracting issues. I always imagined Tony Stark recieving a similar end to Indy in The Last Crusade. His tragic demise, while I like how its treated, does on some level feel more like its made to accomodate Downey's contract expiring and him stepping down.

 

I also feel like Tony's funeral should have been a montage intercut with the other codas, so that  that long take would have been the closing shot of the film or the one immediately preceeding the actual closing shot.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

14 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

While that's true, a lot of it feels less motivated by narrative and more by contracting issues. I always imagined Tony Stark recieving a similar end to Indy in The Last Crusade. His tragic demise, while I like how its treated, does on some level feel more like its made to accomodate Downey's contract expiring and him stepping down.

 

I also feel like Tony's funeral should have been a montage intercut with the other codas, so that  that long take would have been the closing shot of the film or the one immediately preceeding the actual closing shot.

 

It is necessitated by the inter-connected universe. You know there's going to be another Avengers film. But there will be a question - why isn't Iron Man part of it? Why isn't Cap a part of it? Where are they? To put such questions to bed, they had to end their stories in a final way.

[Demodex 557]

There only thing I want to know is whether it answers why Mark Ruffalo couldn't turn into the Hulk in the last movie. And if it does, why couldn't he?

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

He wasn't paid enough.

[crocodile 8,012]

2 minutes ago, Demodex said:

There only thing I want to know is whether it answers why Mark Ruffalo couldn't turn into the Hulk in the last movie. And if it does, why couldn't he?

I think the explanation is simple: Hulk got defeated all too easily and, being the big baby that he is, chickened out at the thought of being defeated again.

 

Karol

[mrbellamy 6,287]

Little thing I enjoyed, the autographs for the six OG Avengers. Nice mic drop.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Just now, mrbellamy said:

Little thing I enjoyed, the autographs for the six OG Avengers. Nice mic drop.

 

Stolen from Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country!

[crocodile 8,012]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

 

Stolen from Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country!

I was thinking that!

 

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Star Trek Is Better Than Everything!©

[Pieter Boelen 740]

2 hours ago, crocodile said:

Captain's decision, while emotionally satisfying, is one of those trouble spots. I wonder whether it will have some sort of consequences for this universe in the future films?

That indeed strikes me as the #1 plot hole/paradox.

We knew Agent Carter lived a full life and married some unknown guy.

Now we finally know that guy was Captain America after all.

 

But how was that kept under wraps?

Did he keep to the side-lines and Carter deliberately kept it 100% secret despite her role as Director of SHIELD?

 

Jarvis from the cancelled Agent Carter TV series showing up might give a clue though.

Apparently they didn't forget about it and season 2 of that series did end on quite the cliffhanger that was never explained.

 

What if in half a year, they announce its renewal WITH Chris Evans as part of the cast this time?

That would provide an opportunity to answer all the questions through brand new adventures.

 

Apparently it didn't get enough viewers back when it was cancelled, but now that the cat's out of the bag, this would be a way to get a LOT of audience right into it.

They need all the Disney+ content that they can get and this would make for quite the nice girl-power addition.

That seems to be "in" these days, so why not?

 

I can hope, right?

 

[SteveMc 2,674]

Time travel is always heavy, Doc.

[crocodile 8,012]

If they followed the "rules" of time travel established in the film then shouldn't Steve Rogers end up in an alternate reality rather than suddenly appear in the same timeline as everybody else? I suppose the point of it all is that they "assume" things work this way but in reality there will be some ramifications to be dealt with in the future Marvel films and series. After all even Stark says something about consequences of meddling with time just before they face Thanos. And I bet the new Loki series will be about the alternate Loki that escaped with the tesseract in this film.

 

Karol

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

9 minutes ago, crocodile said:

If they followed the "rules" of time travel established in the film then shouldn't Steve Rogers end up in an alternate reality rather than suddenly appear in the same timeline as everybody else? 

 

Yes. The time travel in the film makes ZERO sense. They literally break their own rules. Don't bother thinking about it. It is very sloppily done.

 

The best and most logical time travel in recent movies remains Azkaban. All other movies bungle it. 

[Pieter Boelen 740]

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/avengers-endgame-captain-americas-ending-ruins-the/1100-6466487/

^ Hmm... Makes some good points. And some less good ones.

Hopefully there will be plenty of people talking about that and asking questions.

That might help encourage Disney to finally make that Agent Carter season 3 to answer them.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

4 hours ago, Stefancos said:

 

Stolen from Star Trek: The Undiscovered Country!

It has been done even before that. Paying lip service to a great cast is something more films should do. 

 

 

Its a great movie. Truly great.  Everyone trying to fault it just comes off looking silly. 

Its a rarity that in a 4 film series that 4 is the best but in this case its true. 4, 3,.....1,..................2.

Robert Downy gives a great perfomance, equal to surpassing everything he did in Chaplin. I love esemble acting. 

[Hurmm 91]

2 hours ago, crocodile said:

If they followed the "rules" of time travel established in the film then shouldn't Steve Rogers end up in an alternate reality rather than suddenly appear in the same timeline as everybody else? I suppose the point of it all is that they "assume" things work this way but in reality there will be some ramifications to be dealt with in the future Marvel films and series. After all even Stark says something about consequences of meddling with time just before they face Thanos. And I bet the new Loki series will be about the alternate Loki that escaped with the tesseract in this film.

 

Karol

 

I think he did spend his time with the girl in another reality. But after she passes of old age (or divorce?) he then time travels back to the same timeline. 

[A. A. Ron 1,742]

Or the events of Endgame have happened in one form or another in many realities and this isn’t our Cap at all. Having him show up as an old guy makes his happy ending easier for the audience to understand, while also making it easier for them to Sam as the new Captain America — after all Steve chose him!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

2 hours ago, JoeinAR said:

It has been done even before that. Paying lip service to a great cast is something more films should do. 

 

 

Its a great movie. Truly great.  Everyone trying to fault it just comes off looking silly. 

Its a rarity that in a 4 film series that 4 is the best but in this case its true. 4, 3,.....1,..................2.

Robert Downy gives a great perfomance, equal to surpassing everything he did in Chaplin. I love esemble acting. 

 

I agree Joey.  The time stuff is simpler than people make it.  Everything they do creates a new branch off the original timeline.  Nothing is paradoxical or carries over to the original timeline.  As for old Steve, one way or another he gets back to the original timeline.  Does it really matter to spell it out after all that?

[Hurmm 91]

I agree that there's no point overthinking the time travel stuff. No good will come of it. 

 

Anyway, I rewatched Infinity War and it's remarkable how similar certain beats of the stories between IW and Endgame --

 

Two characters go to Vormir and one is sacrificed to get the Soul Stone

 

There's a big battle between the good and evil armies in the end (duh)

 

Thor flies in to destroy the bad guys' massive warships in IW, Capt Marvel flies in to destroy the bad guys' warships in Endgame

 

Whole purpose of the end battle is to keep Thanks from snapping his fingers

 

There's a part in both movies where the female heroes team up, only it's done in such cringey manner in Endgame

 

I suppose it's intentional on the part of the writers to have them so similar, as in to have the heroes correct their mistakes this time.  But I'm not sure it really works on screen. 

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

Some of those moments are designed to play off of this similarity.

 

I love the parallel of Hawkeye and Black Widow compared to Thanos and Gamorra. Thanos is sad for killing Gammora, alright, but once the Stone is in his hand, there is a look of satisfaction there. Hawkeye, on the other hand, is still grieving at that point.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

24 minutes ago, Hurmm said:

There's a part in both movies where the female heroes team up, only it's done in such cringey manner in Endgame

 

Why cringy though?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

And Loki  and the tesseract are back in play.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Zzzzzzz...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I forget what happened with the Tesseract? 

[Chen G. 3,949]

Loki took it and disappeared, no?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But where did they get the stone? Didn't they need it?

[Chen G. 3,949]

Didn't they go further in time to acquire it earlier?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ah yes.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Garrett Stiger is now my favourite person reviewing movies:

 

https://letterboxd.com/gstiger/film/avengers-endgame/

 

Quote

Been a while since I’ve seen seen a movie shit the bed so spectacularly after such a wonderful first act.

 

Oh a second act with nonsensical time travel mumbo jumbo that oscillates wildly between broad comedy and the darker turns that made the first hour so great? That’s certainly a choice.

 

And yeah, when the calvalry shows up in the third act, I was as pumped as anyone. “Ah, here’s where we’re gonna get back on track!”  Then what follows has all the visual qualities of bowl of spaghetti that’s fallen on the floor. It made the Star Wars prequels’ compositions look thought out. 

 

And look, I’m glad the young girls in the audience got the “How is [Captain Marvel] gonna get through that?” / “She has help” moment, but the cynical part of my brain says “Yeah and Marvel’s made a movie about all of one of these women and that came out less than two months ago.”

 

And I don’t wanna make too much out of this moment, but we had JUST SEEN Carol Danvers go through a spacecraft the size of Dodger Stadium. “How is she gonna get through that"?! But of course, it’s about serving the fans. And that’s what marks the last two acts. “Hey, remember this? Hey, remember that?” It might - and is - raking in the bucks. But it sure as hell isn’t good storytelling.

 

The epilogue was nice.

 

** out of *****

 

I'm lowering my grade back to *** out of *****

[crocodile 8,012]

 

Spot on.

 

Karol

[Fabulin 3,512]

.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Garrett Stiger is now my favourite person reviewing movies:

 

https://letterboxd.com/gstiger/film/avengers-endgame/

 

 

I'm lowering my grade back to *** out of *****

What a fucking retarded waterhead douchebag this guy must be. He moans like a stupid bitch about time travel mumbo jumbo. Wait why is that a problem here? I'm sorry was one of the stones not the time stone? Was it okay that Strange used the time stone to save Earth in his film. Didn't Thanos use the time stone to turn back time to get the mind stone? Hell didn't the reality stine itself have time sequencing change ability like when Thanos saved himself after apparently being mortally wounded by his so called Daughter. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

Yeah, I disagree about the time travel, I thought it was a nice portion of the film. But he's absolutely right about the third act. Its a cacophonous, overstuffed piece of action filmmaking.

[Fabulin 3,512]

.

[crocodile 8,012]

It didn't feel long to me the second time. In fact it sort of went really quick considering how light this film is on action in its first two acts.

 

Karol

[Jurassic Shark 12,076]

It didn't feel long at all - at the end it felt like I'd been sleeping for barely two hours!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

44 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Yeah, I disagree about the time travel, I thought it was a nice portion of the film. But he's absolutely right about the third act. Its a cacophonous, overstuffed piece of action filmmaking.

No he is wrong. The last hour was exciting dramatic and gut wrenching.

8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

It didn't feel long at all - at the end it felt like I'd been sleeping for barely two hours!

You were watching Roma?

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

https://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a27274694/avengers-endgame-black-widow-death-marvel-failure/

 

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2019/04/avengers-endgame-black-widow-death-scarlett-johansson

 

Two articles about what I have now said multiple times is the movie's biggest failure - how Black Widow's death is handled. She is given no arc, no closure, basically thrown aside. I don't want to carelessly throw the sexist tag because that would grotesquely irresponsible but for one of the primary Avengers, she was treated very badly.

 

And I feel it wasn't that hard. With a few minor tweaks, they could have atleast corrected some of the problems with it. But seriously how does it look? Tony dies, they assemble the entire cast and stage a funeral and cry and mope and what not. Widow dies and they do one perfunctory scene and then move on.

 

A huge failure.

 

EDIT: https://screenrant.com/avengers-endgame-black-widow-death-bad/

Another article. I think people are beginning to pick up on this. 

[Chen G. 3,949]

I found that single scene plenty satisfying, in that regard.

 

That's hardly the issue with this film.

[mstrox 6,651]

Avengers 4 was pretty good.

[John 2,032]

Just got out of my showing. Wow. Will probably take me some time to fully formulate my thoughts on the film, but overall very positive. A poignant curtain call for these wonderful characters. 

 

On 4/24/2019 at 5:46 PM, Fabulin said:

2. GIRRRRL POWER scene. Felt very forced. When 5th female character walked to the middle of the screen, I thought they are going to just hack Thanos to pieces and the movie will end

 

On 4/25/2019 at 2:14 PM, leeallen01 said:

I even got goosebumps in that awful cringeworthy 'girl-power' moment where all the female avengers were weirdly and conveniently together at the same time.

 

Oh don’t be silly. It was hardly a “RAH RAH GIRL POWER” moment and the scene was like 15 seconds, tops. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Was the moment a bit forced?  Yes.  Pandering?  Yes.  Very satisfying?  YES.

[Wojo 2,453]

I had to laugh because when they said America's ass, I thought of Trump. 

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

My daughters cheered for the Femvengers group shot so you can all fuck yourselves.

[Wojo 2,453]

I liked Thor because he showed that middle aged overweight beer guzzlers can still be superheroes. 

[Fabulin 3,512]

.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

2 hours ago, xWxzek said:

I liked Thor because he showed that middle aged overweight beer guzzlers can still be superheroes. 

You got to be kidding. that set fat people back a generation. It was horrible. Oh who am I kidding the gay bear fans all are getting aroused by it.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

2 hours ago, Fabulin said:

However pathetic exagerrated your phrasing might be, I actually agree. I guess the movie is more for them than for us.

 

Edit: Although 10 years of development and half a billion dollar budget should have resulted in an unassailable masterpiece, so I might be going too light and polite on your reaction to what was a legitimate critical reflection

 

I thought I told you to go fuck yourself.  Light and polite my ass.  It's a movie.

[Wojo 2,453]

It was a great film until all the yellow portals opened up to reveal the dead snap superheroes. That's where it got stupid and where it lost me. 

 

But I did like all the cameos in the past. Loki, Thor's mom, Robert Redford, Howard Stark, Yvette Nicole Brown, and of course Stan Lee. 

 

I did love that Steve got to live out his years with Peggy Carter. He earned it. 

 

I guess that GotG 3 will be about making Gamorra fall back in love with Quail because she wasn't at the funeral scene. Though Thor would be a fun addition.