SPOILER TALK: Avengers: Endgame

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Directed by George Lucas 

[Chen G. 3,949]

George Lucas is a lot of things, a bad director of action is not one of them.

 

I would have loved to see what he would have done of this final battle. For all its overly-florid choreography, at least Anakin and Obi Wan's final duel used the environment and went on for way less time than the Thanos/Thor/Ironman/Cap one.

[John 2,032]

 

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

George Lucas is a lot of things, a bad director of action is not one of them.

  

I would have loved to see what he would have done of this final battle. At least Anakin and Obi Wan's final duel used the environment and went on for way less time than the Thanos/Thor/Ironman/Cap one.

 

Eh.

 

Thanos/Thor/Iron man fight >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Anakin vs. Obi-wan.

 

For the former, there is palpable emotion behind the players and it feels earned. You care about these characters and what happens. The fight in ROTS is between two unlikable characters with no believable relationship prior to their confrontation; it not only goes on for so long, there's zero emotion or dramatic weight behind any of it.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Anyone else failed you?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

George Lucas is a lot of things, a bad director of action is not one of them.

 

I would have loved to see what he would have done of this final battle. For all its overly-florid choreography, at least Anakin and Obi Wan's final duel used the environment and went on for way less time than the Thanos/Thor/Ironman/Cap one.

 

I disagree. The ROTS duel doesnt even look like the characters inhabit the environment they are set in. The "famous" TPM duel has very little in the way of narrative. It's all just gymnastics until they get to that weird door.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Data and Picard figure it out in the room, with-with the map.

[Chen G. 3,949]

2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I disagree. The ROTS duel doesnt even look like the characters inhabit the environment they are set in.

 

Yeah, the choreography takes a lot of the weight from the blows. Compare with The Force Awakens' showdown where the lightshabers are handled as though they were sledgehammers.

 

But at least it doesn't go on for as long, which is the killing stroke () to the suspense of any great showdown. I always thought the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel, at nine minutes or so, went on for too long. But compared with Endgame's thirty minutes sense-numbing duel?

[John 2,032]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

But at least it doesn't go on for as long. I always thought the Anakin/Obi-Wan duel, at nine minutes or so, went on for too long. But compared with Endgame's thirty minutes sense-numbing duel - its much better

 

Would you prefer the finale of the culmination of 22 films and 10 years of backstory and mythology to be a 5 minute setpiece?

 

It all felt wholly earned, at least to me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

But compared with Endgame's thirty minutes sense-numbing duel - its much better.

 

That's comparing apples with oranges though. 

The Battle of Geonosis is a more apt comparison, and it too long, lacks structure and just....poorly done.

[Chen G. 3,949]

That's the battle in Attack of the Clones, right? Yeah, that's pretty embarrasing. However, in terms of structure...well, it opens with the armies fighting and then culminates in the duel with Dooku. Engdame goes the other way, and maintains the duel throughout, which is just too much to take in.

 

13 minutes ago, John said:

Would you prefer the finale of the culmination of 22 films and 10 years of backstory and mythology to be a 5 minute setpiece?

 

The setpiece itself can be as long as you want. The personal showdown between the heroes and the villain - not. It should have started with the heroes engaging Thanos' troops and then the duel should have commenced.

 

And its not the culmination its made out to be, either. Its a culmination of a handful of character stories and of an assortment of plot points from across those 22 films: not of the whole of the 22 films. Plus, for a culmination, there's way too much sequel setup here.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Just now, John said:

 

It all felt wholly earned, at least to me.

 

I would agree. The first two acts made the third feel earned for me.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I believe Chen is just arguing to argue much like I do.

His hatred of endgame has become more and more ridiculous to the point that he prefers that horrible prequel finale. It's kind of fun to listen to his ramblings of insanity.

[Chen G. 3,949]

I hardly hate the movie. For the first two-thirds, I loved it! Its just a case where all the overwhelming praise is a bit perplexing to me.

 

I'm not responding to that last remark.

[Wojo 2,453]

Is this our new Interstellar? 

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Chen you should read your posts. They are hilarious 

[Holko 9,525]

45 minutes ago, Disco Stu said:

Seeing the moment Tony's about to snap as it was actually filmed gives me so much respect for Downey's acting ability/imagination

 

It's nice of them to give him the armour shoulderpads even if all of the suit is CG nowadays and it'll just get replaced.

[Chen G. 3,949]

3 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

Chen you should read your posts. They are hilarious 

 

I could recommend you do the same with your own posts.

 

Except hilarious is hardly the term I would use to describe those...

[John 2,032]

Back on topic, I think RDJ's performance in Endgame was phenomenal and very nuanced. Even during his death scene, where he's fried and can't move after using the gauntlet, the way he acts with his eyes is both masterful and heartbreaking.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Robert Downey Junior as Tony was always the stand-out and central pillar of the entire MCU.

[Jay 37,352]

Hey how about you two stop squabbling with each other and we all just discuss the movie instead? 

 

Joe I am sure there are other areas of the internet you can use to get your argumentative a side out. Let's made JWFan a friendlier place! 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

Tony Stark is actually not among my favorite characters in the MCU (Iron Man 3 is the only really good Iron Man movie IMO), but he for sure was the central pillar for most of it.  I'm glad he's stepping away and I'm glad he gave his best performance as Stark to date in his last movie.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Disco Stu said:

Tony Stark is actually not among my favorite characters in the MCU (Iron Man 3 is the only really good Iron Man movie IMO), but he for sure was the central pillar for most of it.  I'm glad he's stepping away and I'm glad he gave his best performance as Stark to date in his last movie.

 

Agreed!

[Chen G. 3,949]

Oh, I'm not necessarily enamored with his own films either (Iron Man 2 is a bore) but he really comes to life in films like The Avengers.

 

While I was touched by his final moments, I always thought its the type of character that deserved a happy ending. Typically, its tragic heroes that end-up laying down their lives for the cause. Tony isn't a tragic hero - he's fun and easy-going.

 

That's part of what I like about Indy in The Last Crusade: not every end needs to see the hero die or go through a terrible loss. If you're going to go for a lighter approach (as most of the MCU does), by all means stick the landing in that fashion.

 

While I still find it moving, it feels more like it was a decision driven by contractual reasons ("well, might as well write him off now") rather than narrative ones.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

7 minutes ago, John said:

Back on topic, I think RDJ's performance in Endgame was phenomenal and very nuanced. Even during his death scene, where he's fried and can't move after using the gauntlet, the way he acts with his eyes is both masterful and heartbreaking.

The Marvel team will push for an Oscar nod. Downey Jr is better here than in Chaplin

 

Just now, Chen G. said:

Oh, I'm not necessarily enamored with his own films either (Iron Man 2 is a bore) but he really comes to life in films like The Avengers.

 

While I was touched by his final moments, I always thought its the type of character that deserved a happy ending. Typically, its tragic heroes that end-up laying down their lives for the cause. Tony isn't a tragic hero - he's fun and easy-going.

 

That's part of what I like about Indy in The Last Crusade: not every end needs to see the hero die or go through a terrible loss. If you're going to go for a lighter approach (as most of the MCU does), by all means stick the landing in that fashion.

 

While I still find it moving, it feels more like it was a decision driven by contractual reasons rather than narrative ones.

Tony's arc demanded his heroic death. He went from coward to pissed off hero to broken down to redemption. He has become a joy to watch

[Chen G. 3,949]

Didn't feel like it to me, but whatever.

 

It does work, either way. Too bad they had to shove setup for sequels with Scarlet Witch during his funeral, though.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

4 minutes ago, JoeinAR said:

Tony's arc demanded his heroic death.

 

I told you this months ago, and you didnt believe, iirc!

 

 

7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Tony isn't a tragic hero - he's fun and easy-going.

 

I'm guessing Downey jr wanted his final outing to be with a bang. I'm sure Marvel wanted that too. They owe him a hell of a lot.

 

His funeral scene has a whole host of very well paid actors, some of them basically have prosperous careers thanks to what Robert Downey Jr. did for Iron Man.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I believed you but I picked Steve. Steve's death was rejected because it was too obvious.  

 

One thing I do not believe anyone has talked about though I may very well have missed it was the great effects that made Tony look emaciated he look like he had been starving

[mstrox 6,651]

I had money on Cap "living" - i.e. continuing in the role for future movies - and that the open social media posting about it being Evans' last MCU movie was a spoiler red herring.

 

Maybe it's just me and my limited imagination, but never once did it cross my mind that any "last movie" superhero would get a happy/alive ending.  What a pleasant ending!

[Wojo 2,453]

I'm okay with Steve living a long happy life in his alternate reality with Peggy until such time he returns to the prime timeline to deliver the shield. 

 

What I still don't understand is how he bridged timelines without returning to the original quantum platform of departure where Hulk and Falcon waited. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He didn't bridge anything. He lived a long a fruitful live and just waited till the day he knew he left all those years ago.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Falcon's gonna have to eat his spinach to get as big and stwong as Capt'n.

[Wojo 2,453]

That long and fruitful life was in a parallel universe, not the prime timeline.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

2 minutes ago, xWxzek said:

That long and fruitful life was in a parallel universe, not the prime timeline.

 

I think so too but apparently, the writers and directors disagree on this!

 

So it seems that fans have made more sense of their garbled version of time travel than the film-makers themselves.

[Chen G. 3,949]

4 minutes ago, xWxzek said:

That long and fruitful life was in a parallel universe, not the prime timeline.

 

Whatever. If the scene works, it works. No matter what contrivance was needed to bring that scene about.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

How come Rogers can't remember fighting himself in 2012?

[Fabulin 3,511]

.

 

[mstrox 6,651]

Happy endings are nice, but how do you send somebody with superpowers and a duty to their country/planet off in a way that is “final.”  We can imagine the ongoing adventures offscreen in his dimension, and then he comes back and he is old. Perfect.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

36 minutes ago, xWxzek said:

That long and fruitful life was in a parallel universe, not the prime timeline.

 

No it isn't. He went back in time and lived his life.

 

 

There really isn't a prime timeline in Endgame. Or an alternate one.

[Quintus 5,399]

Big Mack weighs in on the movie event of April and May:

 

 

*Discretion advised: Geordie accent

[JoeinAR 1,949]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Hey how about you two stop squabbling with each other and we all just discuss the movie instead? 

 

Joe I am sure there are other areas of the internet you can use to get your argumentative a side out. Let's made JWFan a friendlier place! 

I considered your advice and used it to line the bird's cage.

However if you're going to chastise two then name the two not just me like a quality moderator administrator would do

[Wojo 2,453]

At first I didn't understand how Steve returned two stones to different planets without a spaceship, but the Pym particles must allow space as well. 

 

So the explanation for taking the shrunken spaceship for the heist must have been to preserve Pym particles. I must have missed that. 

1 hour ago, The Original said:

How come Rogers can't remember fighting himself in 2012?

 

Changing the past does not change the future. 

[Disco Stu 15,495]

A performance people aren't talking about enough is Karen Gillan.  This was by far her most impressive work as Nebula to date.  Not least because she has to play the character both as she played her in the first Guardians and the Nebula that she had grown into over GOTG2 and Infinity War.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

5 hours ago, xWxzek said:

Changing the past does not change the future. 

 

Sure it does, even the tiniest change can alter the future in wayyyyyys you can't imagine.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

[karelm 2,913]

Just got back...loved the film and its nostalgic touches.  A few questions, was Nova in the Stark/Ironman funeral line up scene?  She should have been since she was one of the biggest heroes since she killed her younger self and i don't recall seeing her as they panned through all the old characters at Stark's funeral.  Also, I didn't get the giant ant man if someone could explain.  Where did that come from?

[Wojo 2,453]

Ant Man's suit can grow instead of just shrink. We saw that in Civil War, and very likely both of Ant Man's solo movies. (I didn't see either.) 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So why is he called Ant Man instead of Brontosaurus Man?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

2 hours ago, karelm said:

Just got back...loved the film and its nostalgic touches.  A few questions, was Nova in the Stark/Ironman funeral line up scene?  She should have been since she was one of the biggest heroes since she killed her younger self and i don't recall seeing her as they panned through all the old characters at Stark's funeral.  Also, I didn't get the giant ant man if someone could explain.  Where did that come from?

 

Nova?

[John 2,032]

 

2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

So why is he called Ant Man instead of Brontosaurus Man?

 

It's Giant Man!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Elephant Man!