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SPOILER TALK: Avengers: Endgame

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For some of the characters, its on-par with Indy surviving an atomic blast inside a fridge!

 

As @crocodile remarked, I'm more than willing to look past one or two illogical things like this, especially when it comes to characters surviving things they shouldn't. It happens all the time in action movies, even in ones considered to be grounded. But here the climax is just a mounting of one contrivance after another, for me.

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2 hours ago, Fabulin said:

Could you elaborate more on this? I am puzzled ever since Red Letter Media bashed Rogue One for supposedly being this. And what is wrong with fan fiction to begin with?

Fan fiction has always seemed to me to be wish fulfillment, something fans of a particular world or franchise wish or would like to see, especially after a series has ended. There is a stigma around fan fiction because it isn't considered real, canon, or even competent. George R.R. Martin criticized fan fiction, saying he wrote fan fiction with new characters and stories, not those from established works.

 

To me, a more prevalent problem and what RLM were referring to in these huge franchise films like Star Wars is how fan service can affect the film. They're often meta references that stick out like a sore thumb because they're pandering to a specific audience who are high on nostalgia. Now, you might think fan service is a good thing because the filmmakers are listening to the fans and giving them more of what they want, however what's happening in most instances is a ham-fisted attempt to insert nostalgic references and callbacks to ideas and imagery from prior films to win over audiences who might be wary of seeing a Star Wars film without their favourite ships, characters, weapons, rebel bases, Darth Vaders, and of course, the musical identities. It means instead of taking risks, it guides audiences by the hand and then puts those hands in their pockets and into their wallets to buy more merchandise. 

 

I disagree with RLM on their critique of Rogue One, but I think their point on fan service being a problem is quite rational. But what do you expect these corporations to do?

 

 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

@Jurassic Shark, you know what the saddest part is? That @Fabulin isn't joking; and he's not even too off-base, either.

You know what, I never actually even thought if that while watching. I just sort of accept that in this genre. It is more noticeable to me more in films like The Winter Soldier which are more "real world-ish".

 

Karol

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18 minutes ago, crocodile said:

You know what, I never actually even thought if that while watching. I just sort of accept that in this genre. It is more noticeable to me more in films like The Winter Soldier which are more "real world-ish".

 

Oh, its hardly a big issue for me with this movie. It just piles ontop of other issues.

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As I said, I'm happy with the film. But as with every film, I have some problems with it and things I would personally do differently. The biggest here being time travel. It's so open-ended and complex that time travel doesn't work if you want closure. The questions will always be there, like; why not just go back and save everyone who died like Iron Man etc. Time travel leaves too many plot holes that you cannot just explain away no matter what rules and excuses you establish for 'your' version of time travel.

 

I wouldn't have had time travel and instead have just done a simple switcheroo of having all the people who dusted and died were trapped in the soul stone like Gamora kind of was and have all the Avengers use the quantum realm to travel into the soul realm or something like that, and they find out that they have to sacrifice themselves to bring the trapped souls back, like Red Skull says. So the core Avengers in Endgame give their lives to bring back the dead Avengers. Thus the originals can retire and the new ones can take over. 

 

But considering they had the infinity stones in this story, which have such ridiculous power that is impossible to logically explain and that can literally do anything you want or can imagine, I think the filmmakers did brilliantly with what they had with such difficult plot threads and story ideas they had to deal with.

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I mean I guess the main thing is that it would be a bit selfish to steal Iron Man from another timeline.

He wouldnt be the same man that died.

Though the time gem doesnt even do timetravel in that manner.

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31 minutes ago, Not Mr. Big said:

Does Green Woman (Ms. Thanos) come back to life?  

SPOILAH

There is one from the alternate timeline present, so I guess the other one has not been resurrected (Somehow. Is the snap sentient now?), and then there is a cringy kick-in-the-balls-as-a-joke moment with her and Quill, and another lame/savage moment when her sister explains that "it was either him or a tree". Reminds me of Shrek 4, which is not a good sign.

 

Btw. I was very disappointed when Captain cried "Avengers, assemble!" to the already assembled Avengers and their allies. This order makes no sense in the context. They must have thought like horses do, and just heard Captain yell nonsense, which they interpreted as him ordering a charge.

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8 hours ago, Fabulin said:

Could you elaborate more on this? I am puzzled ever since Red Letter Media bashed Rogue One for supposedly being this. And what is wrong with fan fiction to begin with?

 

I dunno what Red Letter Media is. But I'll try to offer a detailed answer because the point is actually very nuanced.

 

I think fan fiction is not inherently bad but is often bad. Something good can come out of fan fiction too. But there are certain parameters within which it should operate.

 

Fan fiction often represents a barren imagination where the fiction being created is heavily or entirely predicated on the original or what came before and only offers slight variations on it. It is basically wish-fulfillment. This is your garden variety fan fiction which "reimagines" the events or characters in the original but does not really tells its own story. This is the worst sort of fan fiction. It basically negates itself - seriously what is the point of even reading it or even creating it?

 

Now I'll draw a distinction by giving an example of what is NOT fan fiction - The Prequel Trilogy. Say what you will about the PT, but it is definitely not fan fiction. It does use 4 main characters - Vader, Emperor, Obi and Yoda but creates several more and more importantly tells a completely different story, with a different tenor, different focus, different style, everything different. Eliminate the original trilogy and the PT would still stand as a fascinating exercise in world-building, storytelling and visual imagination. It is actually in some fundamental ways completely different from the OT. I daresay TFA is more beholden to the OT but even there it creates new characters, new motivations and tells a new story - similar yes, but not the same. TLJ breaks the mould in dramatic ways. It goes off in its own direction entirely. You can see the author's stamp with some of these works. The author actually imagined and had a story to tell with its own internal logic and motivation. I'd argue Rogue One is in the mix too. For a large part, it does tell its story too with its own created cast of characters, though it has to fix neatly between certain points. The ending is definitely fan fiction.

 

I guess what I am driving at is the feeling of being truly liberated from what has happened in the past signifies the creator of the story as a true author rather than an imposter. Only a true author feels confident to take the story where she/he feels it needs to go. Stories often govern themselves, they become alive and lead you down certain paths. If you are being true to them, you would let them take you there.

 

Which brings me to Avengers Endgame. There is a thin line between fan service and fan fiction and they can often be the same thing. After Infinity War has told its story, Endgame is completely and entirely predicated on what has happened in the past and offering variations of it. That is the driving engine of it. You can almost imagine the writers and directors sitting around the table and going, wouldn't it be cool if we saw the final battle in Avengers again. Or what happened after that group shot? Or what happened before between these 2 events? What happened there? And finally, for the final battle, wouldn't it be cool to see this? And that? How about all the girls together? How about Cap picking up the hammer? How about all of them together? You quickly realize that the fans they are servicing are themselves. And with that, you can almost hear the groans of their masturbation off-screen as you watch the fog of pixels in the movie's climax.

 

 

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1 hour ago, John said:

I mean... isn’t that the case with pretty much every time travel movie? Including Back to the Future?

 

Yeah, the rules of time travel are never robust, in any movie. Personally, I loved that section of the film.

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26 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Which brings me to Avengers Endgame. There is a thin line between fan service and fan fiction and can often be the same thing. After Infinity War has told its story, Endgame is completely and entirely predicated on what has happened in the past and offering variations of it. That is the driving engine of it. You can almost imagine the writers and directors sitting around the table and going, wouldn't it be cool if we saw the final battle in Avengers again. Or what happened after that group shot? Or what happened before between these 2 events? What happened there? And finally, for the final battle, wouldn't it be cool to see this? And that? How about all the girls together? How about Cap picking up the hammer? How about all of them together? You quickly realize that the fans they are servicing are themselves. And with that, you can almost hear the groans of their masturbation off-screen as you watch the fog of pixels in the movie's climax.

I guess it can be boiled down to the fact that there exist expectations as to what will happen in the next installments of franchises. When the authors cannot come up with something positively surprising (which phrase should be the two holiest words for creators of any sort), they just put a slight twist on the predicted event (or not). To a certain extent this is absolutely understandable to me. 

 

Captain with a hammer was great. I didn't expect him to gain lightning powers or to keep it, but both make sense in their own symbolic way.

But then I also love the Vader action scene and the Space Battle in RO...

To me they are the equivalent of Mozart taking the bottle while on his way. "We are making a film and have Vader in it. Maybe give him a plot-relevant action scene? Sure, who wouldn't?"

 

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I prefer Infinity War, which I too thought was structured very well, had clear and visible stakes, and an excellent villain. And possibly the best Marvel action set pieces. 

 

I guess I enjoyed Endgame, but it's a film of three parts that individually never quite succeed -- the first rather downbeat, reflexive hour is quite good and maintains the stakes from IW, but you always know it's a build up to something else...

 

...which leads to the second hour which is structured like a heist movie but where the stakes are high but don't feel so because of how easy the heroes accomplish the stuff. It takes Stark literally one minute to figure out the whole time travel deal. From knowing nothing about it to getting the whole thing sorted. It takes a few small fistfights to get the stones in the past. As a heist movie or a time travel movies it's been done much much better before. The only stone that was challenging to get was the Soul Stone, as one character has to die. It couldn't have happened to more inconsequential characters as Black Widow or Hawkeye. As they tumbled together, each trying to outdie the other, with me not giving a shit about either of them, the one thought that crossed my mind was how funny would it be if they both fell to their deaths and Red Skull quips "idiots" in that faux Hugo Weaving voice. The saving grace in the second hour is the snippets of tender scenes like Thor seeing his mom. And it contains possibly the best jokes of the movie -- "hail hydra" and Cap seeing who he thinks is Loki. 

 

The third hour is the action. In and of itself it's fine action. Nice to see everyone in action finally. But it's a retread of Infinity War. It's essentially the same stakes from IW, with the same characters, trying to avoid the same outcome. And so it feels stale. I don't even care that Thanos is somehow as strong as the IW version even without the infinity stones. The whole thing is a bloody retread. 

 

I liked how they handled Cap's ending, which was nice.

 

Overall I enjoyed the movie, but IW was better. 

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I remembered yet another great Captain America set up and payoff reference;

 

- In Cap 1 when (pre-supersoldier) Steve is being beaten up in an alley in the 1940's, he says "I could do this all day." And then in Endgame when cap is fighting himself, past Cap says "I could do this all day," and present Cap replies "yeah, yeah, I know."

 

There are so many I keep remembering. All these little references and setups and payoffs. It really shows how much the filmmakers know and care about the whole MCU, that they would include such detailed character writing.

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Hurmm said:

It couldn't have happened to more inconsequential characters as Black Widow or Hawkeye. As they tumbled together, each trying to outdie the other, with me not giving a shit about either of them

 

I actually really liked this. Natasha and Clint's friendship was always sweet, and here it acts as a good commentary on Thanos. While he obviously didn't want to, he did kill Gammora without hesitation, and when he got the stone, the look on his face no longer showed any remorse: he got what he wanted. Clint, on the other hand...

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I really enjoyed it a lot, this is pretty much what I want from a comic book movie. And for once I wasn't particularly bored by the final battle.

I've always been impressed by Marvel's ability to attract a stellar cast. I think I counted some 19 Oscar nominated actors in the credits! I might be simple, but watching actors like Robert Redford and Tilda Swinton turn up in these silly movies really is a highlight for me.

It was also cool to see Jarvis, that's the first time a TV character has appeared in a Marvel movie.

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Endgame is looking at a potental $1Billion worldwide debut. 1 bloody billion in just its opening. At the moment it is already over 400 million in 2 days. It will definitely finish in 2nd place behind Avatar's 2.7 billion, and who knows, it may even surpass that.

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A lot what was described earlier as character codas, are more setups for future films.

 

It doesn't necessarily rob this film of its finality, but I would have appreciated if it was toned down a bit, and arranged differently. It takes away from the power of the funeral scene to have all this sequel-bait following it.

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1 hour ago, Once said:

I really enjoyed it a lot, this is pretty much what I want from a comic book movie. And for once I wasn't particularly bored by the final battle.

I've always been impressed by Marvel's ability to attract a stellar cast. I think I counted some 19 Oscar nominated actors in the credits! I might be simple, but watching actors like Robert Redford and Tilda Swinton turn up in these silly movies really is a highlight for me.

It was also cool to see Jarvis, that's the first time a TV character has appeared in a Marvel movie.

Oh yes, the return of Tilda Swinton made me very happy boy indeed. :)

 

Karol

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Thinking back on this (and I am an amateur screenplay writer so I think about these things a lot) - I think the biggest missed opportunity was probably Black Widow's death.

 

I think that had the chance of being truly devastating and haunting. They could have really crafted a wrenching dramatic high point around that storyline had they given it some thought. It would also have given her death more weight. But like I said, these writers don't seem to grasp inter-personal drama or pathos very well.

 

 

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Even though I disagree, and I think Chris' fanhood is showing a bit too much, I did like this:

 

 

I'll turn down the bashing of this film: its not bad by any means, just too scattershot in the handling of its climactic setpiece and denoument.

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3 hours ago, rough cut said:

Is no one commenting on the fact that they set up the next Iron Man franchise?

 

It seems to me perfectly obvious that they want to do it with his daughter.

 

No one's commenting on that because there's literally nothing in the movie that even hints at a new Iron Man series. That goes double for anything involving Tony's daughter.

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2 minutes ago, Bespin said:

I have a question. Is it really the last Marvel movie?

 

No. There's a Spider-Man sequel coming out this summer for instance.

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What worked for me:

  • The setup for Hawkeye’s disillusionment and journey through the film
  • Everything involving Stark. His grudge against Cap, his retreat into a simple family life (marked by a well-earned new level of self-interest), his “reconciliation” with his dad, his doting on his little girl, the way his storyline concluded, all of it
  • Thanos’ plotting with his daughters
  • Cap’s storyline conclusion. It was truly sweet and had heart. 

What did not work for me:

  • Captain Marvel. Too cocky, too “perfect” (can anything hurt her? Anything at all?)
  • The battle royale in the third act, for the same reasons others have already given here
  • Silvestri’s score (merely serviceable)

What I would have loved to see more of is what the world looked like and how it functioned after half the population disappeared. We got tantalizing peeks of a despondent society where people had kind of given up and couldn’t be bothered to pick up the pieces. (rundown streets, trash everywhere, no more MLB...) but I wish there was more we could’ve been shown about the emptiness of the post-snap world.

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6 hours ago, A. A. Ron said:

 

No one's commenting on that because there's literally nothing in the movie that even hints at a new Iron Man series. That goes double for anything involving Tony's daughter.

 

Of course it was hinted at, the daughter-thing had a hint as big as they come “I just found it in the garage” or whatever.

 

Definition of ‘hint (just so we’re talking about the same thing): a slight or indirect indication or suggestion.

 

The iron man-daughter scene is pretty much the definition of a hint, her running around in the IM-suit.

 

That doesn’t mean they’ll do it though. I’m just saying, if they do, I’ll probably skip it.

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8 hours ago, Bespin said:

I have a question. Is it really the last Marvel movie?

 

The end of the movie tries to conceal setup and sequel-bait in its denoument: Thor joining the Guardians, Steve passing on the Shield to Falcon, a quiet moment with Scarlet Witch, etcetra. Its not the last one, but its the last one I'll ever watch.

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I barely watch MCU films to begin with. For me, its mostly the Avengers films which I actually go to the cinema to see.

 

I'll have no problem pretending Phase 4 doesn't exist.

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Infinity War remains tops but generally dug this and will probably see it again in theaters or Bluray, either of which would join it with IW and the Raimi Spider-Mans in rarefied Marvel company for me.

 

Held together pretty well for 3 hours, liked the slow start and made me lol a lot as it got going. Teared up a bit over ol Iron Man, nice death scene. Action was just ok, Cap on Cap and Hawkeye in Japan fights were rad, final battle was a little bleh-looking but since they kept it focused enough on highlighting personalities and was about as short as they could have possibly achieved it went down ok.

 

Silvestri did alright, noticed the Infinity War reprises and walked out humming the Cast Away knockoff so that’s something. And while I never thought much of the Avengers tune originally, it has sort of effectively smashed me into feeling sentimental about it.

 

Also I’m not sure when it was that Chris Hemsworth became MVP because he barely registered for me as Thor in the first few movies but he is so damn good and I am all in on Guardians 3.

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Early reports are suggesting a 150 million opening day domestically. And based on that, percentages would assume a 350 million opening weekend domestically. Which is 100 million higher than record holder Infinity War. Utterly ridiculous numbers.

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It is the kind of movie that makes me say 'guys you can stop now.'

 

Not only because of the climactic feeling, but also because how the hell are you gonna adress the snap from here on in?

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2 minutes ago, MedigoScan said:

It is the kind of movie that makes me say 'guys you can stop now.'

 

Not only because of the climactic feeling, but also because how the hell are you gonna dress the snap from here on in?

It is the kind of movie that makes me say 'guys you can stop now.'

 

Not only because of the climactic feeling, but also because how the hell are you gonna dress the snap from here on in?

 

It needs to be said twice.

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I was gonna say, how will they ever top this at the box office, but then I remembered Disney owns Marvel and when Star Wars comes out later this year they'll be close to a bajillion gazillion dollars and will effectively own the world.

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2 hours ago, Arpy said:

I was gonna say, how will they ever top this at the box office, but then I remembered Disney owns Marvel and when Star Wars comes out later this year they'll be close to a bajillion gazillion dollars and will effectively own the world.

I think Endgame will make more money than Rise of Skywalker, but yeah Disney will make all the money at the box office

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On 4/24/2019 at 4:57 AM, Chen G. said:

I'm trying to avoid the finer plot points in terms of spoilers, but my question is simple.

 

Is it a good resolution to the previous films?

 

Yes, but only because Palpatine came back. 

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Wonderfully fun and entertaining movie, everything it should have been.  The girls loved it.  Silvestri knocked it out of the park.  One of those scores where you can hear the enthusiasm of everyone involved.

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