My opinion on Return of the Jedi and Schindler's List

[Sandor 459]

I just read all the controversy that resulted from the issue whether Return of the Jedi is generally considered to be, well, sucky.

Ricard; as much as I like to agree with you I have to say that you were quite wrong in assuming that there is no general consunses concerning the weakness of Return of the Jedi.

I have been a Star Wars all my life and have read more reviews, opinions, essays etc. concerning the Lucas' vehicle than any normal person would and I can only honestly say that there definately is a general opinion that Return of the Jedi is a flawed film and certainly the weakest of the original trilogy.

Ofcourse there will always be those who consider Return of the Jedi to be the best Star Wars film. Heck; there are also those who consider The Phantom Menace to be the best installment. Even some minions would call Godzilla the best movie of all time.

The point is; these are exceptions to the opinion that has been established by the majority and the majority would always rate Star Wars or The Empire Strikes Back as the best Star Wars films. The majority also consider to find Return of the Jedi rather to 'suck' than to 'rock'.

I agree therefor 100% with Hloa-roo (spelling??).

As a huge Star Wars I'd like to believe that the saga is flawless and a direct gift from heaven, but even I have to agree that Return of the Jedi is a very, very weak film (with some great moments nonetheless). If I would think otherwise I would be either in denial or simply lacking good taste.

--

Concerning Schindler's List; it's not really overrated. It's only overrated when it comes to historical accuracy, but as a film it's great.

And the aspect that certainly is not overrated is the music. It's rather underrated actually. The music is fantastic and will always be one of my favorite Williams scores. Ever.

Bye,

Roald

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

I'm glad i'm not the only one who has to check the membership list every time he needs to spell Alan's nickname.

As for ROTJ, on a cerebral, objective level, i consider it to be a very flawed film, with stale directing, so and so acting Fisher and Ford are wooden, Hammil has his moments.

The plot is more or less a retread of the one from Star Wars and it has killer carebears in it that destroy the Empire's best troops with bare hands and rocks.

Still if i watch the film i have ABSOLUTELY no problem with these things.

It's a wonderfull ride of a film, a real spectacle.

I admire any film that has serious flaws and still manages to entertain me to no end.

As for Schindlers List, i've been hearing about those liberties Spielberg took for years now, can anyone provide some details?

Not that it's to important though, it will always be a brilliant and important film to me.

Stefancos- who only listens to the score once a year, yesterday, the be precise.

[Lurker 5]

Roald, can I assume you are a huge Star Wars fan and not just a "huge Star Wars"?

I believe the real Oskar Schindler, instead of crying over how many more Jews he could have saved, actually had diamonds hidden in the hubcaps of his car when he fled.

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Roald own's a lightsaber.

Stefancos- wondering if Roald actually uses it.

[Ricard 1,821]

I have to say that you were quite wrong in assuming that there is no general consunses concerning the weakness of Return of the Jedi.

And I have to say that you are quite wrong in assuming that I said anything about its supposed "weakeness" (please read my post again). I only said that there's no general consensus that the movie sucks. And that wasn't any "assumption", BTW.

I have been a Star Wars all my life and have read more reviews, opinions, essays etc. concerning the Lucas' vehicle than any normal person would and I can only honestly say that there definately is a general opinion that Return of the Jedi is a flawed film and certainly the weakest of the original trilogy.

Which doesn't mean that it "sucked". And should I remind you that I've been a Star Wars follower since 1977, and I've also read more reviews, opinions and essays concerning Star Wars than any normal person would.

Ofcourse there will always be those who consider Return of the Jedi to be the best Star Wars film. Heck; there are also those who consider The Phantom Menace to be the best installment. Even some minions would call Godzilla the best movie of all time.

That's an utterly absurd comparison. I know that you like to use it since you think ROTJ is such a "flawed" film, but there are infinitely more people who praise ROTJ than TPM or AOTC. Whether you like it or not.

The majority also consider to find Return of the Jedi rather to 'suck' than to 'rock'.

I think you're very wrong. But if you want to see it that way, good for you.

I agree therefor 100% with Hloa-roo (spelling??).

That's fine, but the point of the incident was NOT whether Alan was right or I was wrong (despite Uni's in-depth analysis of the ROTJ comment).

BTW, "thanks" for bringing this up again.

Ricard - who doesn't understand why Roald needs to use a separate thread for his opinions when he could post them on their respective threads.

[Ricard 1,821]

on a cerebral, objective level

Cerebral? Yes. Objective? Never. We're talking about personal opinions on movies. Objectivity doesn't apply in this case.

It's a wonderfull ride of a film, a real spectacle.

I agree.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

on a cerebral, objective level

Cerebral? Yes. Objective? Never. We're talking about personal opinions on movies. Objectivity doesn't apply in this case.

You are correct, off course.

Stefancos-

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,251]

Ricard - who doesn't understand why Roald needs to use a separate thread for his opinions when he could post them on their respective threads.

Insecurity, he wants to make sure people notice his words.

Stefancos-

[Sandor 459]

Roald, can I assume you are a huge Star Wars fan and not just a "huge Star Wars"?

Indysolo; maybe it's me, but I don't really understand this remark. Please explain.

And Ricard; please don't get me wrong; I like Return of the Jedi. I mean; it's still Star Wars and some scenes are among the best in the whole series (Luke confronting Vader, Vader kills the Emperor, etc.), but you can't deny ROTJ is under a lot of critisism and has always been under a lot of critisism. And personally; although I like the film, I also find it very, very weak in many ways.

But I am sorry that I brought this up again.

Insecurity, he wants to make sure people notice his words.

Speaking from experience? Nah, just kidding.

Anyway; sorry guys. I'll try to post more upbuilding from now...

Bye,

Roald - trying to find his old way again...

[AC1 3,565]

For what it's worth, I agree 99% with Roald. I was a true Star Wars diciple untill RotJ. I felt ashamed and betrayed by the new kiddy direction Lucas had chosen. There is 1% I can't agree with and that's the hocus pocus trickery the emperor was doing. I was disappointed by the "lightning is coming out of his hands" wizardry. Somehow that felt cheap to me.

Return of the Jedi was a clear indication of how the next Star Wars episodes were going to be. We were warned by last episode from the first trilogy. I still cannot have an easy conversation with a person who prefers the third instalment. Luckily I haven't met many who do.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Justin 2]

It would be interesting to make a poll but then again that's just this site.

Justin -Who really loves ROTJ but still thinks it's the weakest of the trilogy.

[Romão 1,931]

Well, ROTJ is one of my favorite starwars movie and is the best score, IMHO. And it has the Emperor, what more could you ask for?

Romão, who always cries watching ROTJ

[Lurker 5]

Roald, can I assume you are a huge Star Wars fan and not just a "huge Star Wars"?

Indysolo; maybe it's me, but I don't really understand this remark. Please explain.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't know what a "huge Star Wars" is. Could you please explain that to me?

Here's what you said, "I have been a Star Wars all my life" and also you said, "As a huge Star Wars I'd like to believe that the saga is flawless".

Neil

[JoeinAR 1,759]

you notice how Roald just can casually come back and he fits the board so well.

He's like an old friend you haven't seen in forever, and when you see him again there is no awkwardness whatsoever.

Joe, pleased to read this thread.

[Ozzel 0]

As one of the "original" Star Wars fans from '77, I believe most of my fellow fans love the OT, love all three films, but generally regard ROTJ as their least favorite. Not as a rule, mind you. Sure, ROTJ is the favorite for some. But I can confidently say that upon seeing the film for the first time, no matter what age we were, 99% of us rolled our eyes when seeing those cuddly little Ewoks beat up on "an entire legion" of Palpy's best troops. I mean, c'mon! That said, when taking all five films into account, I believe AOTC to be the weakest, or my least favorite.

As for Roald's original post, I think we all know he just forgot to type the word 'fan' after 'Star Wars'. Give the guy a break.

[Ozzel 0]

I forgot to add that, while most fans may agree ROTJ is their least favorite, no true SW fan will say it sucks. I think by definition, a true SW fan cannot say any of the films suck (because they obviously do not! )

[Lurker 5]

Yay!!! I'm not a true Star Wars fan! I finally have "official" confirmation!

Neil

[Justin 2]

Romão, who always cries watching ROTJ

Neil you missed a great oppurtunity to bash ROTJ there.

Justin -Suprised Neil didn't use it.

[Ricard 1,821]

I can confidently say that upon seeing the film for the first time, no matter what age we were, 99% of us rolled our eyes when seeing those cuddly little Ewoks beat up on "an entire legion" of Palpy's best troops.

I was 18 years old when I saw Return of the Jedi in 1983. And I can confidently say that upon seing the film for the first time, no matter what age we were, 99% of us thought the movie was brilliant from beginning to end.

Anyway, I'll insist just in case someone missed it: my point was that it wasn't widely accepted that the movie "sucked". And that wasn't even an "important issue" until Uni posted his "in-depth analysis" of the sentence and Roald decided to start this new thread.

Joe, pleased to read this thread

I would really like Roald to come back (a real come back), but I have to say I'm certainly unpleased to read that he only started a new thread to bring up something that was POINTLESS and DIDN'T HELP to close the debate.

I'm not sure if you guys understand the situation, honestly.

[Lurker 5]

Romão, who always cries watching ROTJ

I cry too, it's so horrible. Stop the pain.

Happy Justin?

Neil

[Ozzel 0]

Well I've heard casual SW fans and film go-ers in general say this film sucks, or that film sucks. But a true SW fan will find something he or she loves in each film that will make watching and re-watching a special experience. Yeah, Ewoks pounding stormtroopers sucks. I'd much rather the moon of Endor was populated by wookies. But that doesn't mean ROTJ sucks. It's part of the whole, and it belongs.

[Justin 2]

I cry too, it's so horrible. Stop the pain.  

Happy Justin?  

Nice one there Bulk.

Justin -Happy Neil is back to his usual self.

[Ozzel 0]

I was 18 years old when I saw Return of the Jedi in 1983. And I can confidently say that upon seing the film for the first time, no matter what age we were, 99% of us thought the movie was brilliant from beginning to end.

Ricard, I was four years younger than you when I saw ROTJ, and I agree with you, it was brilliant from beginning to end. By that point in the film, we were all caught up in the action, the suspense, the entire saga arriving at light speed to the conclusion we had been waiting for. When the Ewoks started whooping stormtrooper a**, my reaction was a mixture of laughter and disbelief, but I was no less entertained. I saw the film nine more times after that and enjoyed the tenth viewing just as much as the first, if not more. Today, I still have a great fondness for ROTJ and still watch it quite often.

[Morn 7]

The majority also consider to find Return of the Jedi rather to 'suck' than to 'rock'.

I doubt that, yes maybe quite a few more than those who says TESB and ANH suck, but that doesn't mean there is a general consensus that it sucks. There are probably just as many people who love it as those who hate it. And many inbetween.

It's a wonderfull ride of a film, a real spectacle.

Ohh yes, one of my favourites. Near TESB's level. The score too.

Yes, the ewoks defeating the stormtroopers is a plot hole, but it's still fun.

Objectivity doesn't apply in this case.

I suppose it's fair to say it's not that important. Unless you're a film student.

Morn - Who liked the cutesy ewoks

[Trumpeteer 243]

In terms of the three first three films made in the "Star Wars" saga, "Return of the Jedi" packs the least emotional impact, but it's still a lot of fun.

Just remember what it was like to see Luke and pals on the sail barge, accompanied by heroic music not heard in full force since, well, the escape from Cloud City.

Or remember how dramatic it was to hear Luke tell Leia they are related. A little soapy, but still well done given the genre.

And then the final duel. You can't find a better moment in the entire saga, until...

Vader's death. I cry every time. And knowing poor Anakin's background, it makes the moment sadder and more poignant. And like the Luke/Leia revelation, it's very well done, given the genre.

Now, as a whole, the film lands with a thunk when you see 6-foot humans being roasted for a feast (is it comical or suspenseful?). And yes, seeing Ewoks bash the hell out of stupid stormtroopers is a head-scratcher, but it's just another David vs. Goliath story that is evident throughout the entire trilogy (Luke vs. Death Star, Luke vs. Vader, Vader vs. Emperor).

Now, if we want to talk about weak third film chapters, we should be discussing "The Godfather, Part III" or (ducking) "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade."

[Ricard 1,821]

Morn - Who liked the cutesy ewoks

Ricard - Agreing with Morn once again

[Justin 2]

Yes, the ewoks defeating the stormtroopers is a plot hole, but it's still fun.  

I don't really think it's a hole. It's just a weak spot. Like how did the empire take over the rest of galaxy if they couldn't defeat large teddy bears.

Justin

[Lurker 5]

Yes, the ewoks defeating the stormtroopers is a plot hole, but it's still fun.  

I don't really think it's a hole. It's just a weak spot. Like how did the empire take over the rest of galaxy if they couldn't defeat large teddy bears.

Justin

Thus making it a plot hole.

Neil

[AC1 3,565]

You can clearly see that the actors are getting in the way of Lucas's ambitious plans. Harrison Ford could have been easily replaced by a cardboard Han Solo. It's a "muppet over actor" thing just like it's a "CGI over subtance" thing in the prequels.

Again, the only thing worthwhile in RotJ and that really sucked me into the story are the confrontation scenes between Luke, Vader and the Emperor.

But by then the movie was almost over.

----------------

Alex Cremers

[Guest macrea]

Sorry, Ricard; I disagree. I was 15 when Return of the Jedi opened. SW and TESB were my two favorite films at the time. I'd seen each of them more than 20 times. And as soon as I saw ROTJ, I knew that it not only sucked but was one of the worst films I'd ever seen, for too many reasons to go into. I wasn't alone, either, and my opinion has not changed. Everyone who says that Lucas destroyed Star Wars with the prequels should get over their denial and accept that fact that he destroyed it 20 years ago.

[Ricard 1,821]

Everyone who says that Lucas destroyed Star Wars with the prequels should get over their denial and accept that fact that he destroyed it 20 years ago.

My God, I can't believe I'm reading this. You wrote a rather good post regarding CE3K, and now you post this little stupidity???

We should accept WHAT "FACT"?????????????' Or you mean that everyone SHOULD AGREE WITH YOU?

Ricard - Shocked and scared :?

[Elmo Lewis 6]

The biggest problem with Return of the Jedi was that it was a movie on its own. By the end of ESB, the Star Wars saga was more or less defined. So when audiences expected to see a third Star Wars movie they took for reference ANH and TESB and wanted something in the line of those two movies (whatever line that might be since they have very little in common). When ROTJ came out, it had its own style, not a style borrowed from TESB of ANH, so audiences had a tough time accepting that and therefore didn't give the movie the chance it deserves.

Of course, this is from my very own experience with the VHS in 1995 so I can and might be very wrong.

[JoeinAR 1,759]

ROTJ did not have it's own style, it has the Star Wars style. Ross, people gave Jedi a chance, my God it was the biggest hit of 1983. It was the event movie of the year. It made more money that ESB. While I think it is the weakest of the 3 orignal Star Wars, I still like it, and I like the Ewoks. Their defeat of the Stormtroopers is no more difficult to believe than the Etheopians defeating the Italians in WWII. Some times technology doesn't always win, otherwise all these new CGI films would be the best ever.

[UCFKevin 0]

I'm gonna butt in here and say I LOVE ROTJ. My second favorite SW flick. The Ewoks are goofy, but so the hell what? The special effects are top drawer, the Luke and Vader thing is incredible, the music is beautiful, the action is great, it's classic SW to me.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

As I said, Joe, I wasn't there when the movie came out, so I'm not going to argue here. I just would like to point out a few things from your post, not defend my opinion.

ROTJ did not have it's own style, it has the Star Wars style.

What style is that? ANH (or 'Star Wars' for you) TESB and ROTJ barely have anything in common.

Ross, people gave Jedi a chance, my God it was the biggest hit of 1983.  It was the event movie of the year.  It made more money that ESB.

Yes. So did The Phantom Menace and I don't think it's the most-loved Star Wars movie out there. The movie's problems come when you place it within the trilogy.

While I think it is the weakest of the 3 orignal Star Wars, I still like it, and I like the Ewoks.

Exactly. On its own, it's a very acceptable movie. The question is: Is ROTJ a movie on its own? While I think it is, I know many people will disagree with me.

Their defeat of the Stormtroopers is no more difficult to believe than the Etheopians defeating the Italians in WWII.  Some times technology doesn't always win, otherwise all these new CGI films would be the best ever.

Very true. It's the 'humanity vs. technology' issue that makes ROTJ go round (Vader fighting his mechanic self, Ewoks fighting the Empire with hand-made weapons, etc).

[ObiWan 0]

Hi all. New to the forums here, so be kind.

I think a point that may get missed in a what is "the worst episode" debate such as this, is the complete story line. The story is essientially why I am a fan. It's not about how great the acting could be or how great the directing should have been. There needs to be a separation between story and techincal aspects of each film. If you want to critique each film independently without really taking into condiseration the "saga aspect", then you probably will come up with more bad then good. The overall story is why I and many other fans have put up with the disappointments we may have had over the years. And yes there have been a few, at least for me.

Was I upset when I saw Ewoks defeat a legion of the Emperor's best troops? Yes.

Was I pissed to see that Anakin built 3-PO? Yes.

Do I squirm when I watch some of the romantic sequences in AOTC? Yes.

And don't get me started on Jar Jar....

But be that as they may, ultimately I still love the story told through thus far. A true fan puts up with the bad to get to the good. And I do believe there is a lot of good in all five epsiodes of SW despite directing problems, acting problems and even scoring problems (not JW'S fault of course).

I have no problem with someone who says an episode sux for various reasons, techincal or whatever. But please don't assume that someone else may not be able to see past the films flaws and find something wonderful to his or her individual liking.