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Hans Zimmer's NO TIME TO DIE (2021)

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2 hours ago, Bayesian said:

I'm willing to eat crow when the facts warrant it. But I think it's important to make sure we're all defining things the same way. For example, I wouldn't consider JNH or John Powell as RCP. Even if they spent some time in Zimmer's factory, they both long ago made a separate name for themselves and have no meaningful relationship to RCP now. Da Vinci code, I'll grant you that one. (Sherlock too, for that matter.) But Tron legacy?? That was daft punk! 

 

Although I have to refute your Marvel straw man (I never said RCP were the only ones guilty of the transgressions I listed), you're right that across almost two dozen films, not much MCU music stands out melodically or thematically. Actually, that just makes the whole situation more depressing: the Disney/Marvel lineup of non-RCP composers has been no more or less successful than RCP at writing memorable movie music. Between the two groups, that's a pretty big chunk of the present-day film composer firmament.

 

On Elfman, I also must fact-check ya: I mentioned JL as the only time he didn't credit his co-composers. Whether I'm correct about that or not, bringing up MIB: International, which credits both Elfman and Bacon, is a false equivalence.


i also should have liked to defend MCU charges but the work is honestly no better than RCP. There’s highlights like some of Silvestri’s thematic material, Doyle did well and Gia had a good theme for Dr. Strange. But again his Spider-Man theme is a dumb RCP type power anthem.

 

so yeah the quality has been very questionable. And even non RCP composers haven’t yielded significantly better results.

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I think it’s fairly obvious that Zimmer doesn’t *need* ghostwriters or collaborators, he’s perfectly capable of writing a score on his own.
 

Maybe he just enjoys the creative process of working with others, and also enjoys giving up-and-coming composers meaningful experience of working in the industry (credited or not, he’s most likely doing them a huge favour) he’s even saying in all his press releases that really most of Bond was done by Steve Mazzaro.

 

Perhaps the credits thing in this case was a studio/producer contracted thing? That they wanted Zimmer’s name on the film, and didn’t mind who really composed it behind the scenes? That seems as likely a theory as any, to me.

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More experience I guess?

 

22 minutes ago, Bofur01 said:

Perhaps the credits thing in this case was a studio/producer contracted thing? That they wanted Zimmer’s name on the film, and didn’t mind who really composed it behind the scenes? That seems as likely a theory as any, to me.

 

The studios definitely want Zimmer's name. I'd speculate they probably don't mind who actually composes it if Zimmer is supervising everything.

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1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

More experience I guess?

 

 

The studios definitely want Zimmer's name. I'd speculate they probably don't mind who actually composes it if Zimmer is supervising everything.


experience doesn’t pay the bills

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1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

 

We're not talking about whether they get paid or not, just what sort of credit they get.

 

Credit is income. Credit is employment opportunity. If you work in the industry you know that.

 

If you cannot present a resume of your official credits, it harms your compensation and employment options.

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Well, not really because what’s happening is the composer is much less expensive and it’s a much safer score and you talk it about a tiny difference. And then what would happen because of the cost of the composer you would have at least double and triple the number of scores purchased. We have the old slugs out there that are 10, 12 years old. If you did that, the score would be better. It would be much cheaper by $3,500. You would take a lot of composers off the market because studios would be able to afford an orchestra. Now, by the way, we’re going to see how that turns out. But a lot of people agree with me, many people. The score has gotten so expensive because they have computers all over the place for an extra little bit of synth. And I’m okay with electric music too. I think I’m all for electric music. I’ve given big incentives for electric music but what they’ve done in California is just crazy.  

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16 hours ago, gkgyver said:

 

At least they have one. 

And both have proven that they can do other things. 

Those Remote Control people have yet to prove they're more than a Hans Zimmer chamber slave. 

 

There is a really fundamental error in comparing music written and overwritten by a dozen people, to the collaboration of making a film. 

 

With a film, you NEED different people with different fields of expertise to collaborate, to achieve a vision. 

You NEED a costume designer, you NEED an editor, you NEED a set designer, you NEED pure craftsmen, because none of those individuals can do all of those fields on their own because it's not their expertise. 

 

A musician has one field of expertise. One. No musician worth his salt - NONE - needs someone else to write a piece of music for him. Moreover, if you have any aspiration towards an artistic musical vision, you won't allow someone else to mess with your work, ever.

 

A film editor won't just go "hey, assistant number 3, want to have a crack at this film?" 

A film designer won't go "hey person X, I'll send you my designs over, you can have a go and paint them over". 

In fact, I'd bet if a designer did that, used one of person X's designs, slapped his name on it, and got an Oscar for it, there'd be lawsuits. 

 

Stop pretending Hans Zimmer is honest or justified in what he does. 

Have you ever seen one of those Roundtables Zimmer is part of? Not a single word about any of his ghostwriters. Not one. 

If there's one thing he's very good at, it's verbally jacking off. 

 

I don't think you understand how film music composing work. Just because you are able to write every note doesn't mean it is feasible. If a film go through multiple edits and cuts, you may not be available anymore to rewrite every note to match the film. You could be working on a film with a deadline you can't meet without help. You need to stop thinking that composers are writing for symphonies in dark room. They are in the music production industry. Directors want demos, experimentation, reedits, etc. They are working on multiple projects and competing against each other. Almost every composer in Hollywood can write every piece of music for a film, but that is not the point. 

 

And I disagree with you that a musician has one field of expertise. A electronic synth expert may not be able to write orchestral music. He or she may not be able to orchestrate. Depending on what the film needs, I don't see why composing can't be as collaborative as the other production elements. A true musician should understand his or her limitations and shouldn't be afraid to acquire the right expertise to execute his or her vision. 

11 hours ago, Bayesian said:

I'm willing to eat crow when the facts warrant it. But I think it's important to make sure we're all defining things the same way. For example, I wouldn't consider JNH or John Powell as RCP. Even if they spent some time in Zimmer's factory, they both long ago made a separate name for themselves and have no meaningful relationship to RCP now. Da Vinci code, I'll grant you that one. (Sherlock too, for that matter.) But Tron legacy?? That was daft punk! 

 

Although I have to refute your Marvel straw man (I never said RCP were the only ones guilty of the transgressions I listed), you're right that across almost two dozen films, not much MCU music stands out melodically or thematically. Actually, that just makes the whole situation more depressing: the Disney/Marvel lineup of non-RCP composers has been no more or less successful than RCP at writing memorable movie music. Between the two groups, that's a pretty big chunk of the present-day film composer firmament.

 

On Elfman, I also must fact-check ya: I mentioned JL as the only time he didn't credit his co-composers. Whether I'm correct about that or not, bringing up MIB: International, which credits both Elfman and Bacon, is a false equivalence.

 

Take out Powell and JNH and everything that said about themes and melodies is still correct. Daft punk worked with RCP to craft Tron Legacy. The fact is, RCP wrote tons of melodies and themes throughout the last 20 years. From Da Vinci Code to Transformers to Hidden Figures. The Pirates franchise itself have like 10 themes.   

 

Also, with MIB: International, did he credit TJ Lindgren in the front cover? Nope. If you are talking about booklet credits, then technically Zimmer credited every person ever. Hell you can see every additional composer on his website. 

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7 hours ago, Bofur01 said:

I think it’s fairly obvious that Zimmer doesn’t *need* ghostwriters or collaborators, he’s perfectly capable of writing a score on his own.
 

Maybe he just enjoys the creative process of working with others, and also enjoys giving up-and-coming composers meaningful experience of working in the industry (credited or not, he’s most likely doing them a huge favour) he’s even saying in all his press releases that really most of Bond was done by Steve Mazzaro.

 

Perhaps the credits thing in this case was a studio/producer contracted thing? That they wanted Zimmer’s name on the film, and didn’t mind who really composed it behind the scenes? That seems as likely a theory as any, to me.

 

Except insider from RCP already stated that Zimmer frequently boost his ghostwriters to build up RCP. We will see if Mazzaro actually did as much as Zimmer said he did. 

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Score up for pre order in some countries on iTunes...the opening track out now
https://music.apple.com/nz/album/no-time-to-die-original-mot ion-picture-soundtrack/1533265529

Tracklist:


Gun Barrel
Matera
Message From An Old Friend
Square Escape
Someone Was Here
Not What I Expected
What Have You Done?
Shouldn't We Get To Know Each Other First
Cuba Chase
Back To MI6
Good To Have You Back
Lovely To See You Again
Home
Norway Chase
Gearing Up
Poison Garden
The Factory
I'll Be Right Back
Opening The Doors
Final Ascent
No Time To Die

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Yeah, a surprisingly normal tracklist for Zimmer. Given his past albums though, I'd be surprised if we were getting much more than an hour of score though, similar to Gladiator.

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7 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

Yeah, a surprisingly normal tracklist for Zimmer. Given his past albums though, I'd be surprised if we were getting much more than an hour of score though, similar to Gladiator.

 

Just now, danbeck said:

Total time 71 min. (minus the 4 minutes song it leaves 67 minutes of score)

 

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58 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

 

Except insider from RCP already stated that Zimmer frequently boost his ghostwriters to build up RCP. We will see if Mazzaro actually did as much as Zimmer said he did. 

 

Thererin lies the problem, if Mazzarro actually did most of the score, then 'Music by Hans Zimmer' is just factually wrong, and not representative of whose music you're actually buying.

 

Zimmer gave Lisa Gerrard cover credit on Gladiator, and her name appears on about half the tracks in the metadata of my OST rip. I wonder if Mazzarro not getting similar recognition has anything to do with him having no name power....

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Yeah, if Mazzarro did most of the score, then he didn't do "Additional Music", and the credits of the movie are wrong. They should state "Music Composed by Steve Mazzarro, Additional Music by Hans Zimmer". After all, if HZ's role on that score was not exactly substantial, than he was the one that did the Additional Music.

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36 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

Credit is income. Credit is employment opportunity. If you work in the industry you know that.

 

If you cannot present a resume of your official credits, it harms your compensation and employment options.

 

You get paid based on cue sheet credits, so if any of Zimmer assistants wrote anything on the cue sheet, they get pay for it.

 

And let's be honest here...working for Zimmer is the easiest way to get a good resume. Just ask Benjamin Wallfisch. Where was he before he came to RCP? He was an obscured orchestrator for Dario Marianelli and occasional composer. His biggest project back then was probably Peter Pan. Since he moved to RCP and working with Zimmer, he has scored IT, Blade Runner, Shazam!, Hidden Figures, Annebelle, etc. Working for Zimmer is the easiest way to present a good resume. 

11 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

 

Thererin lies the problem, if Mazzarro actually did most of the score, then 'Music by Hans Zimmer' is just factually wrong, and not representative of whose music you're actually buying.

 

Zimmer gave Lisa Gerrard cover credit on Gladiator, and her name appears on about half the tracks in the metadata of my OST rip. I wonder if Mazzarro not getting similar recognition has anything to do with him having no name power....

 

If he did most of the score. We don't know what what he did. 

7 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Yeah, if Mazzarro did most of the score, then he didn't do "Additional Music", and the credits of the movie are wrong. They should state "Music Composed by Steve Mazzarro, Additional Music by Hans Zimmer". After all, if HZ's role on that score was not exactly substantial, than he was the one that did the Additional Music.

 

Again, IF he did most of the score. We don't know. I think once the score comes out, we will have more cue sheet credit confirmation. 

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Indeed, we're just going by a comment Zimmer made, which may just have been his usual faux-modesty.

 

It gets objectionable when Zimmer's name is purely used to attract buyers' attention, and the lion's share of the music isn't his. The more I listen to Varese's Wild Wild West, the more I wish the rules allowed Peter Bernstein to share credit, as it seems he did a lot of work on that score.

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Quote

Back To MI6
Good To Have You Back
Lovely To See You Again

 

And I was fearing the film would be yet another retelling of "Bond is at odds with MI6 but comes back". 

After all, that was only the story of the entite Craig saga. 

Glad this is absolutely not the case again. 

 

Imagine if Live And Let Die, The Man With The Golden Gun, The Spy Who Loved Me, and Moonraker were all about the same story. 

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18 hours ago, gkgyver said:

Stop pretending Hans Zimmer is honest or justified in what he does. 

Have you ever seen one of those Roundtables Zimmer is part of? Not a single word about any of his ghostwriters. Not one. 

If there's one thing he's very good at, it's verbally jacking off. 

 

I also just want to add that this is objectively false. Zimmer talked about this ghostwriters hell of a lot more than any other composer. During the Hidden Figures roundtable for example, he talked about Williams and Wallfisch. He talked about Steve Mazzaro's contribution to Bond. Lisa Gerrard's contribution to Gladiator. He literally said that Kung Fu Panda 2 was mostly a Powell score. 

 

Can you show me when other composers talked about their ghostwriters? Zimmer does more to build his brand his team than any other composer. Rumblings has it that Zimmer frequently give more credit than they deserve. 

16 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I personally believe that Mazzaro did most of the job here, because Zimmer had a very busy year and his focus probably went all for Dune. But yeah, we don't know yet.

 

Zimmer started on No Time to Die in November and finished recording in February. Zimmer then went on to finish Hillbilly Elegy and Spongebob doing remote recording. And then Top Gun. He only started ramping up working on Dune in the summer. 


Since Mazzaro is working with Zimmer a lot as his assistant in the past year or so, I am not sure he has any more time than Zimmer.

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All the "oh you" comments will flood in, but fuck it: the gunbarrel track exemplifies that Hans Zimmer is horrible at making orchestral music sound good and authentic. How can you make the James Bond theme fanfare, that is tailored for brass, sound like synthetic brass? 

It's clearly meant to restate the gunbarrel sequence from Spectre, but lacks all of its subtlety. 

Compare the two. 

Newman with the very slight counterpoint in the beginning to make the chromatic chord progression not completely bare bone, the light vibraphone in the traditional of John Barry, then the brass in call and response fashion, the subtle bongos in the repeated phrase etc. 

Then Zimmer comes along. 

Here's a bare bones progression, here's a bare bones dada DUN with bare bones in background, here's 20 horns blaring a single line, call it a cue. 

 

At least it's not in D minor. 

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24 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

All the "oh you" comments will flood in, but fuck it: the gunbarrel track exemplifies that Hans Zimmer is horrible at making orchestral music sound good and authentic. How can you make the James Bond theme fanfare, that is tailored for brass, sound like synthetic brass? 

It's clearly meant to restate the gunbarrel sequence from Spectre, but lacks all of its subtlety. 

Compare the two. 

Newman with the very slight counterpoint in the beginning to make the chromatic chord progression not completely bare bone, the light vibraphone in the traditional of John Barry, then the brass in call and response fashion, the subtle bongos in the repeated phrase etc. 

Then Zimmer comes along. 

Here's a bare bones progression, here's a bare bones dada DUN with bare bones in background, here's 20 horns blaring a single line, call it a cue. 

 

At least it's not in D minor. 

 

Did I fuck your wife or something? 

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Listened to the gun barrel opening cue... Perfectly serviceable orchestration, but nothing that Arnold or Barry hadn’t already done with finesse. Something about it sounds off. The swung eighth-note rhythm in the brass part is just not quite right. It sounds like a classical orchestra trying to play jazz and not quite getting it right.

 

Maybe it was intentional, but it’s not sitting right for me.

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47 minutes ago, Docteur Qui said:

Listened to the gun barrel opening cue... Perfectly serviceable orchestration, but nothing that Arnold or Barry hadn’t already done with finesse. Something about it sounds off. The swung eighth-note rhythm in the brass part is just not quite right. It sounds like a classical orchestra trying to play jazz and not quite getting it right.

 

Maybe it was intentional, but it’s not sitting right for me.

 

It's also the orchestration that's just empty. 

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All of this discussion about the gunbarrel cue...why hasn't anyone pointed out it's just a minor re-arrangement of Newman's gunbarrel from SPECTRE, which is a re-arrangement of Arnold's version of the Bond theme from Casino Royale. There's nothing to analyze here!

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2 hours ago, GiacchinoCues said:

All of this discussion about the gunbarrel cue...why hasn't anyone pointed out it's just a minor re-arrangement of Newman's gunbarrel from SPECTRE, which is a re-arrangement of Arnold's version of the Bond theme from Casino Royale. There's nothing to analyze here!

 

Why don’t you leave the thread then? 

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Because everyone's opinion on the sample posted is valid? 

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Someone posted track times in the FSM thread, but didn't list their source so no way to know if its accurate

 

1. Gun Barrel (0:55)
2. Matera (1:59)
3. Message From an Old Friend (6:35)
4. Square Escape (2:06)
5. Someone Was Here (2:56)
6. Not What I Expected (1:24)
7. What Have You Done? (2:14)
8. Shouldn’t We Get to Know Each Other First (1:21)
9. Cuba Chase (5:40)
10. Back to MI6 (1:30)
11. Good to Have You Back (1:17)
12. Lovely to See You Again (1:25)
13. Home (3:45)
14. Norway Chase (5:06)
15. Gearing Up (2:53)
16. Poison Garden (3:58)
17. The Factory (6:42)
18. I’ll Be Right Back (4:59)
19. Opening the Doors (2:44)
20. Final Ascent (7:25)
21. No Time to Die – Billie Eilish (4:04)

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Who would invent a fake tracklist for a film score of all things? Probably not even worth sharing if it's unverified; almost certainly fake.

 

Must be some seriously sad individuals out there :shakehead:

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The track TITLES are real, they've been on all the digital retailers since it became Friday in each country

 

But none of those sites have the TIMES shown, so I dunno where the FSM poster got the times from

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