Mike Matessino's Indiana Jones

[Richard Penna 2,631]

The only bits I particularly like from the score are the full Jungle Chase sequence, the brief bit for Indy vs the Russian and 'The Departure'.

 

Of all 3, Crusade is the only one I want genuinely complete, so I'm quietly hoping the definitives come out separately.

[phbart 556]

On 7/6/2019 at 3:08 PM, Jurassic Shark said:

If MM gets to produce remastered and expanded soundtrack albums of all Indy films, what would he have to improve on the earlier releases in order to end up with the definitive presentations?

You know something, don't you? Wait... are you MM???

[The Five Tones 292]

KotCS was a big disappointment, at least what I can remember from 2008. Score wise, not a big fan, but I enjoy Temple Ruins and the Secret Revealed. I *love* the reference to the Map Room - not a straight copy and paste but a brilliant, weird transformation of its elements - and the WotW-like abstract music that follows. That cue had some raw power at least.

 

Steven "get off my lawn you Netflix kids" Spielberg has pretty much trolled himself out of a making another relevant film, though I'd watch Indy 5 if Harrison Ford gets another good screen death, and JW a chance to write a proper elegy for a character he clearly loved. I haven't wanted to watch the IJ films or show them to my kids because they are so racist, sexist and culturally problematic (the first two at least) and not something I need to go back to as a descendant of the global South. I loved watching them with my adopted dad in the 80s because he grew up going to the theatre to see serials and loved the throwback aspect and that helped me understand what made him tick as a white man. They told great stories, and that is captured perfectly in the music. Yes, some of the musical Orientalisms I can do without, and then again like the films, they have their context in classical music/film scoring/JW history (On that note, I can't really spend too much time with Memoirs of a Geisha even as a score because there is so much cultural appropriation. Something like Rosewood I can appreciate because of the internal dynamics in American history and musical discourse, and JW's respect for Black American music.)

Now, an MM IJ boxset would be its own reward. We know that the sourcing, restoration, editing and sequencing would be A1 and result in the definitive edition for generations to come. Most importantly, it would present the music *exactly* as JW wants it to be heard, which can't be overlooked. MM's full-scale projects always give me a totally new way to appreciate the score(s) and put them in a better context. We can only *hope* Disney doesn't mess it up by getting in MM's way.

[rough cut 1,464]

Everybody’s hatin’ on KOTCS. I thought it was a good score. Lots of enjoyable music.

 

Irina’s theme, The Snake Pit (someone should do an essay about this musical spoof throughout the series!), the traveling music is really good (Journey To Akator), and to me, Call Of The Crystal definitely sounds “Indy”!

 

Mutt’s theme is great! Maybe people confuse the music with the character which would make it instantly less enjoyable... ? I think it’s melodical, fun and is memorable. So The Adventures Of Mutt is also a winner - but it really shines as it’s performed in the end credits! Oh, how I’d love to get that version with a clean fade in/out!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

Zzzzz...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,771]

Thhhh...

[Holko 8,205]

1 hour ago, The Five Tones said:

On that note, I can't really spend too much time with Memoirs of a Geisha even as a score because there is so much cultural appropriation.

 

No politics allowed now, so all I'll say is: your loss, a major one, and over something seemingly very silly.

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,355]

I love Call of the Crystal!

[Giftheck 743]

Was I the only one who saw the title and thought that it was an announcement and then was disappointed upon clicking?

[Jay 31,998]

7 minutes ago, Gistech said:

Was I the only one who saw the title and thought that it was an announcement and then was disappointed upon clicking?

 

On 7/6/2019 at 3:55 PM, The Illustrious Jerry said:

This thread title! D'oh!

 

On 7/9/2019 at 10:33 AM, ATXHusker said:

I almost had a heart attack when I read the thread title coming back from vacation in the Rocky Mountains!  Y'all are killing me! LOL

 

On 7/9/2019 at 11:36 AM, Bellosh said:

Seriously.  I wish this was real.  I think it will be eventually though.  There's so much missing music.

 

[Jurassic Shark 9,744]

Thank you!

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,355]

Thank you so much Jay!

[Bespin 6,993]

I hate this thread, because each time I see the title, it hurts me!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

Why not just change the thread title?

[The Five Tones 292]

8 hours ago, Holko said:

 

No politics allowed now, so all I'll say is: your loss, a major one, and over something seemingly very silly.

Mine is a cultural academic response perhaps, not exactly what you label politics. I don't judge anyone who likes the score, it's well done with some interesting rhythmic stuff, just not my thing in JW. Seven Years in Tibet more my thing in that dramatic category. No need to dismiss my opinion as silly.

[Bellosh 1,921]

The score to KOTCS is good ya'll.

 

It's just unfair it will always have to be compared to the other three masterpieces.

[Nick Parker 3,034]

On 7/11/2019 at 9:33 AM, The Five Tones said:

Steven "get off my lawn you Netflix kids" Spielberg has pretty much trolled himself out of a making another relevant film, though I'd watch Indy 5 if Harrison Ford gets another good screen death, and JW a chance to write a proper elegy for a character he clearly loved. I haven't wanted to watch the IJ films or show them to my kids because they are so racist, sexist and culturally problematic (the first two at least) and not something I need to go back to as a descendant of the global South. I loved watching them with my adopted dad in the 80s because he grew up going to the theatre to see serials and loved the throwback aspect and that helped me understand what made him tick as a white man. They told great stories, and that is captured perfectly in the music. Yes, some of the musical Orientalisms I can do without, and then again like the films, they have their context in classical music/film scoring/JW history (On that note, I can't really spend too much time with Memoirs of a Geisha even as a score because there is so much cultural appropriation. Something like Rosewood I can appreciate because of the internal dynamics in American history and musical discourse, and JW's respect for Black American music.)


 

Are you my Tinder date from like a month and a half ago?

 

You're very well researched and well-spoken, I'm sure you're aware of the extent of preparation John Williams took to write Memoirs of a Geisha, as well as the Eastern-Western fusion he wished to convey rather than trying to sound straight up Japanese. Do those not count as respect for you?

 

Furthermore, are you saying that the Indy movies only click for white people? You say they helped you understand your adopted father as a white man. What, then, does that mean for any non-white people, myself partially one of them, who enjoy them? I might be misunderstanding you but I'm just not following your perspective all around. I would appreciate your help in me seeing where you're coming from, if you're willing. 

[Bespin 6,993]

It really hurts.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

Culturally problematic.

 

Hehe...

[Unlucky Bastard 7,771]

21 hours ago, The Five Tones said:

Mine is a cultural academic response perhaps, not exactly what you label politics. I don't judge anyone who likes the score, it's well done with some interesting rhythmic stuff, just not my thing in JW. Seven Years in Tibet more my thing in that dramatic category. No need to dismiss my opinion as silly.

 

This forum shits itself at the sight of anything remotely controversial now, and dumps it all under the "politics" label.

[Ricard 2,025]

On 7/11/2019 at 6:33 PM, The Five Tones said:

I haven't wanted to watch the IJ films or show them to my kids because they are so racist, sexist and culturally problematic (the first two at least).

 

The fact that they're extremely violent films (the four of them) doesn't count, though.

[Holko 8,205]

And of course only 1 and 2 are problematic, not 3 with its portrayal of Nazis so bagatellised and cartoony it made Spielberg do Schindler's List because he felt bad!

[Unlucky Bastard 7,771]

20 minutes ago, Ricard said:

 

The fact that they're extremely violent films (the four of them) doesn't count, though.

 

Not Verhoeven violent though.

[Naïve Old Fart 7,933]

 

4 minutes ago, Holko said:

And of course only 1 and 2 are problematic, not 3 with its portrayal of Nazis so bagatellised and cartoony it made Spielberg do Schindler's List!

That's not entirely accurate.

Spielberg always intended to shoot SCHINDLER'S LIST right after E.T. but, he got...distracted. Anyway, SCHINDLER'S LIST was a two-picture deal, and a very good deal it was, too.

[Holko 8,205]

It was brought to him after E.T.,  but he didn't feel he was ready then.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

3 minutes ago, Richard said:

That's not entirely accurate.

 

What? Which part?

[Jurassic Shark 9,744]

29 minutes ago, Richard said:

 

That's not entirely accurate.

Spielberg always intended to shoot SCHINDLER'S LIST right after E.T. but, he got...distracted. Anyway, SCHINDLER'S LIST was a two-picture deal, and a very good deal it was, too.

 

He was feeling bad about his portrayal of dinos.

[The Five Tones 292]

19 hours ago, Ricard said:

 

The fact that they're extremely violent films (the four of them) doesn't count, though.

Not sure how that's relevant to the point I'm making, if that's your concern with them. At some point a parent allows their children to watch violence, I'm sure you know.

[Jurassic Shark 9,744]

The rest is excused by telling the kid that the film is set in the 30s and made in the 80s.

[The Five Tones 292]

On 7/12/2019 at 4:09 PM, Nick Parker said:

 

Are you my Tinder date from like a month and a half ago?

 

You're very well researched and well-spoken, I'm sure you're aware of the extent of preparation John Williams took to write Memoirs of a Geisha, as well as the Eastern-Western fusion he wished to convey rather than trying to sound straight up Japanese. Do those not count as respect for you?

 

Furthermore, are you saying that the Indy movies only click for white people? You say they helped you understand your adopted father as a white man. What, then, does that mean for any non-white people, myself partially one of them, who enjoy them? I might be misunderstanding you but I'm just not following your perspective all around. I would appreciate your help in me seeing where you're coming from, if you're willing. 

I think there are a ton of assumptions that go into making that kind of score with any sense of entitlement to the tradition, no matter which non-Japanese hard-working-as-hell composer makes it and who likes it. And we rarely examine those assumptions as a dominant culture. This raises questions for me about the compositional and aesthetic aspects of the work.

I liked the Indy films as a young person, mostly the first as it arrived when I was barely a teenager. The rest came when I was older and somewhat moved on, minus enjoying my dad's reaction to the third. I enjoy the music, to the extent - and this could bear examination - it lessens the immediacy of the politics of the films it scored. In this case. Where it is meant to conjure "the East," it is hokey but familiar and comforting in the familiarity (a la the Golden Age composers) of that blunt referencing. Sometimes powerful, as in the wonderful Ark theme climaxes. There is plenty of Americana of course and lots of interesting modern technique and action grooves. The Grail theme is pure European liturgical style and it's like JW taking a three-pointer with one hand. Not that you don't have to work hard to make three-pointers, quite the contrary.

 

Because something is problematic, doesn't mean a critique of this aspect precludes participating in other aspects that might be enjoyable. We are capable of multiple modes of meaning here?

[Nick Parker 3,034]

Thank you for expanding on your points all around, I appreciate it very much.

 

2 hours ago, The Five Tones said:

I think there are a ton of assumptions that go into making that kind of score with any sense of entitlement to the tradition, no matter which non-Japanese hard-working-as-hell composer makes it and who likes it. And we rarely examine those assumptions as a dominant culture. This raises questions for me about the compositional and aesthetic aspects of the work.

You're not _wrong_  per se, but couldn't you make the argument that a Japanese composer might not be any more "intrinsically" versed in the kinds of instruments or idioms that Williams touched upon, and could be prone to make similar if not almost exact assumptions? This is a massively murky and dangerous line to discuss, and teeters squarely over the edge of dickwad anthropological posturing, I'm very aware, but sometimes the idea of a kind of cultural purity and ownership seems deeply and overly romanticized, and indeed, a little overprotective or even insulting in its own right. I remember knowing a girl in college from I think Ghana, who always liked to amusedly point out how disappointed and surprised her dorm mates were when they discovered she listened to musicians such as Taylor Swift.

 

Furthermore, on that point, where do you draw the line? Do you dismiss Williams' score for Schindler's List for cultural appropriation, since he's not Jewish and employed both Jewish instruments and idioms? Or is it like a six degrees kind of thing?

 

As for Indiana Jones, certainly it's your freedom to have them sit with you as they do, and I think I know where you're coming from, but I think for many people, myself included, they're just such blatant zing bang entertainment movies that it's hard to see them as really offensive or anything like that, especially, as you point given that it's channelling that older serial/propaganda movie sensibility. Certainly I can't imagine anyone's cultural or ethnic attitudes being truly shaped by them...and if they are, then frankly I think three or four Indiana Jones movies is one of the lesser of their problems. 

 

I'm not gonna watch Black Dynamite and get pissed off at its caricatures and lack of nuance (a little different since it was actually made by black people, but it's an homage to a very different era of sensibilities all the same).

[GoodMusician 54]

I never really use JWFAN so I had NO idea about this thread. I kinda skimmed it so I’m sorry if I repeat things. I’ve also only personally worked on Raiders and TOD but here are my thoughts:

 

-Rescan to avoid pitch correction issues present in both TOD and Raiders

-Rescan to hopefully reduce the issue present in several reels of TOD where a high pitch leader tone seems to have bled into the tape (perhaps find a better source?) To fix this I in essence isolated that tone and digitally deleted it from the audio files but it leaves a really odd gap in the spectrum which would be noticed.

—Raiders

-Raiders: not much unreleased material is left but for starters that alone would be a big expansion. (the rolling ball, Marion in the pit, source music)

-The fidelity of the tapes doesn’t seem too amazing (a product of its time) but a remaster would probably bring out a lot more detail and help make it “future proof”)

-I would love any extra stuff, alternate takes of cues or things showing Williams really working towards a final product. Interviews were great on the old set and would be nice but aren’t necessary ESPECIALLY in lieu of new music!

 

—Temple of Doom

-Temple of Doom has so much material that’s unreleased but is also difficult to release due to music being written literally over music. Ideally! I’d like the layers isolated.

ie: the band source not mixed with the orchestra, the dinner source isolated from the orchestral layers, the sacrifice sweeteners tacked on at the end / beginning of the sacrifice music and not layered, etc)

-Including the alternates such as the original opening to Slalom into Mountain, the different travel iterations, the pieces only heard in the LEGO games, the full “Fortune and Glory” cue, etc.

-We still dont have a released correct assembly of the finale into credits!!

-I prefer music to be separated and in the case of Temple of Doom so much of the film is scored that MM would need to find appropriate places to split the cues otherwise he’ll have the Episode I EU on his hands. I don’t expect every cue separated, but it would be nice to have those moments. hell, the nocturnal activities into stranglehold is always overlapped in the releases, just giving a moment before the next cue would be ideal.

-Fidelity doesn’t seem to be an issue with TOD but those tones mixed in will be a problem. 

 

 

I’ve done a rebuild of my Temple of Doom set and I truly feel like until MM redoes the score, it’ll be the best there is. 

[Naïve Old Fart 7,933]

You joined in 2005, and you "never really use JWfan"? Er...

You say you've worked on both scores...in what capacity?

Can you share your TOD "rebuild"?

[GoodMusician 54]

I did join in 2005, but I don’t frequent much anymore. I’ve moved to ... another forum and Discord.

 

Im not home to upload to my gdrive but I’ll share my track list at least till I can.

I did join in 2005, but I don’t frequent much anymore. I’ve moved to other forums and Discord.

 

My sets are like this: 

 

Raiders (all except 1 track fit on 1 disc)

 

Temple of Doom (Is 3 discs for all alts and overlays)

 

 

 

[Jurassic Shark 9,744]

Thanks, @GoodMusician!

[Bespin 6,993]

How did you correct the "pitch issues"?

[Jurassic Shark 9,744]

Just turn it into 8-bit!

[Jar Jar 28]

Hi guys,

 

by reading the full topic about Indiana Jones concord album, I have learned about the issue with the pitch on Raiders.

 

I never noticed the issue so I took my piano and listened to the map room (from the 81 OST vs the Concord). And it's not the concord which is wrong but the 81 album.

 

The three first notaes are G F# C.

In the concord version are at the right perfect pitch (at 440khz) matching totally the piano (and my trained ears).

In the 81 , the notes are slighty detuned. For example the G is not an exact G mais something between an F# and a G.

 

So maybe, the tracks have been slowed down by the movie editor or even by Williams in order to match perfectly the movie. But for sure it has been recorded as the Concord version (otherwise all the LSO have detuned their instrument...)

 

Hope it helps :)

[Bespin 6,993]

That's what I've said since a "pitch issue" was noticed on this release.

 

People are comparing what with what?

 

One user tell that a recording has a pitch issue, and 344 lemmings follows behind him without even be able to compare if it's true or not.

 

To change the speed of a track on a CD to match the version found on an old album or the film version, that's a thing any idiot can do.

 

To correctly adjust the pitch of an analogue recording, you need a keyboard and your ears, period.

[Jar Jar 28]

I don't understand. As I said, I am comparing the original 81 release (by Polydor) with the Concord version and Concord as a correct pitch comparing to a standard tuning. The 81 version has a lot of different pitches depending on the tracks.  What I mean is notes in the 81 version are never perfect. They are slightly detuned on a lot of tracks. 

[Ricard 2,025]

10 hours ago, The Five Tones said:

Not sure how that's relevant to the point I'm making, if that's your concern with them. At some point a parent allows their children to watch violence, I'm sure you know.

 

Just pointing out the irony of your statement.

[Bespin 6,993]

There is violence in Indiana Jones movies?

 

Apart from few "necessary" murders... 

 

 

[Datameister 1,687]

47 minutes ago, Jar Jar said:

Hi guys,

 

by reading the full topic about Indiana Jones concord album, I have learned about the issue with the pitch on Raiders.

 

I never noticed the issue so I took my piano and listened to the map room (from the 81 OST vs the Concord). And it's not the concord which is wrong but the 81 album.

 

The three first notaes are G F# C.

In the concord version are at the right perfect pitch (at 440khz) matching totally the piano (and my trained ears).

In the 81 , the notes are slighty detuned. For example the G is not an exact G mais something between an F# and a G.

 

So maybe, the tracks have been slowed down by the movie editor or even by Williams in order to match perfectly the movie. But for sure it has been recorded as the Concord version (otherwise all the LSO have detuned their instrument...)

 

Hope it helps

 

I'm not sure how to counter that other than to say that...you're wrong.  At least about the Concord release; I don't have the '81 OST, only the DCC and Concord albums. The map room cue is one of the worst offenders on the Concord - it's too fast, coming in very noticeably sharp. I'm not sure if it's an issue with your piano, the labeling of your albums, your sound system, and/or your ears, but that track isn't even close to matching standard 440 Hz tuning. On the other hand, the DCC version is close enough to A440 for my ears not to pick up on any significant difference.

 

Without us being in the same room, listening to the exact same thing, I suppose it's pretty hard for either of us to convince the other of anything. But yes, the Concord album definitely has some significant speed/pitch issues, although they vary widely from track to track (and score to score).

[Jurassic Shark 9,744]

58 minutes ago, Jar Jar said:

I don't understand.

 

Nobody understands Bes, that's what makes him so charming!

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,355]

2 hours ago, Bespin said:

One user tell that a recording has a pitch issue, and 344 lemmings follows behind him without even be able to compare if it's true or not.

 

1 hour ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Nobody understands Bes, that's what makes him so charming!

I understand him!

[Jurassic Shark 9,744]

1 minute ago, The Illustrious Jerry said:

I understand him!

 

Then you'll be our translator!

[Naïve Old Fart 7,933]

3 hours ago, Bespin said:

There is violence in Indiana Jones movies?

 

Apart from few "necessary" murders... 

 

 

Has anyone noticed that, in order to get his hands on the Ten Commandments, Jones breaks most of them?

[The Illustrious Jerry 3,355]

Well he's not so much focused on the religious value as much as the archaeological value, correct? 

[Jurassic Shark 9,744]

The ten commandments belong in a museum!

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,479]

6 hours ago, Datameister said:

 

I'm not sure how to counter that other than to say that...you're wrong.

 

Plenty of ways.