Popular Post DarthDementous 1,059 Posted June 16, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 16, 2022 On 15/06/2022 at 7:06 PM, SF1_freeze said: Read the last part of my post, In RotJ Kenobi tells Luke that he has hidden Leia and Luke from Vader/Anakin That is at the end of ROTS and at that point Obi Wan seems to know that Vader/Anakin is still alive. Otherwise why would they need to hide the kids from a dead man? Padme says there is still good in Anakin on her deathbed, directly after the birth of Leia and Luke. Why would she say that about a dead Vader/Anakin. That also confirms that she and Obi Wan know that Vader/Anakin is alive. Don't bother. @Chen G. will selectively pick things out of your response and ignore anything that directly contradicts what they already believe. Save yourself the headache in the future of conversing with someone so amazingly disingenuous In relation to this week's episode, they've introduced some new things into the universe (for this era anyway) which I think are pretty damn harmful For one, they've pretty much written in stone that if you're driven by a strong desire for revenge you can survive fatal wounds such as being impaled. Reva does it as a youngling (???) and then again as an adult, the Grand Inquisitor does it and straight up lamp-shades this by saying something along the lines of "Revenge sure can do wonders for the will to live". I don't know why anyone in their right mind would look at Darth Maul's inexplicable survival and then have that be the new precedent. Utterly unbelievable that Vader doesn't finish the job when Reva is very clearly still alive after being stabbed, especially when he already knows that Reva has done this trick before as a youngling Then you have Vader having the ability to ground a ship that's fully engaged in an escape trajectory with the Force. Now it raises the questions of why he didn't do that on the Tantive IV in 'Rogue One', and why he didn't do that on the Falcon on Hoth in 'Empire Strikes Back'. This is the kind of thing that should've stayed in a video game Andy, Groovygoth666, Van_Etten and 1 other 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy 4,085 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 I am increasingly unsettled that Season 2 will be Reva on a quest to get Luke to spite Vader. Spoilers Spoiler Luke will survive. It's another goddam prequel. 31 minutes ago, DarthDementous said: In relation to this week's episode, they've introduced some new things into the universe (for this era anyway) which I think are pretty damn harmful For one, they've pretty much written in stone that if you're driven by a strong desire for revenge you can survive fatal wounds such as being impaled. Reva does it as a youngling (???) and then again as an adult, the Grand Inquisitor does it and straight up lamp-shades this by saying something along the lines of "Revenge sure can do wonders for the will to live". I don't know why anyone in their right mind would look at Darth Maul's inexplicable survival and then have that be the new precedent. Utterly unbelievable that Vader doesn't finish the job when Reva is very clearly still alive after being stabbed, especially when he already knows that Reva has done this trick before as a youngling This is really undermining the whole point of Revenge of the Sith, that the pathway to immortality was through selflessness and willingness to let go of attachments and desires. Plagueis was right all along I guess? enderdrag64 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 5 minutes ago, Andy said: I am increasingly unsettled that Season 2 will be Reva on a quest to get Luke to spite Vader. Spoilers Reveal hidden contents Luke will survive. It's another goddam prequel. This is really undermining the whole point of Revenge of the Sith, that the pathway to immortality was through selflessness and willingness to let go of attachments and desires. Plagueis was right all along I guess? Hah, funnily enough I'm in the middle of listening to the Plagueis audiobook. I really like the way he frames the Sith to Palpatine as the original Force practitioners instead of the corruption the Jedi always paint them as because "darkness always exists before there is light", and his commentary about how the Banite Sith laugh at the Jedi's notion that getting rid of all the Sith would bring balance to the Force is also fascinating These are all perspectives that paint the Sith as a fully-formed ideology that I wish were in the Prequel movies so I could actually get a sense of what it means to be a Sith beyond a corrupted Jedi It'll never cease to be jarring going from current Star Wars to the old expanded universe (except for some of the novels I suppose), the gulf is actually mind-blowing. They pretty much are completely different universes enderdrag64 and Oswin Pond 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brónach 1,301 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 I'm surprised Disney is so cheap with these shows But perhaps I shouldn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 hours ago, DarthDementous said: Don't bother. @Chen G. will selectively pick things out of your response and ignore anything that directly contradicts what they already believe. Save yourself the headache in the future of conversing with someone so amazingly disingenuous I think this is the first time I've ever been accused of being "disingenious." I've had "Pretentious Jerk" (which I'm thinking of putting on my wall), and I believe there were one or two accusations of racism (rich, being aimed at a Jew) but disingenious is a new one and I'm not sure I'm very appreciative of it. But I won't go into this any further. I just think the continuity in Star Wars is so loose that to try to make it make sense is...unnecessary. One need, I think, just looks at the individual entries - whether they be Episode III, Obi Wan, Rogue One or Episode V or Episode IX - as individual entries and judge them on that level. If they're done in such a way that takes away from other entries from a dramatic standpoint (which some stuff in Obi-Wan certainly does) I think that's much more meaningful than whether the mechanics of the continuity work or not. Then we have our argument about George Lucas, which at this point is probably too much of an aside to go into, but I do think history has backed me up on my complete reluctance to take a word out of that man's mouth at face value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturnedblue 372 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Still harping on about this? I believe the issue is that Lucas, Hamill, and even the script all say the same thing but you still refuse to believe it DarthDementous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Andy 4,085 Posted June 16, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 16, 2022 Wow. The new chapter from the non-existent novelization really helps us get into Reva's head. And I think we can all guess where she's headed next. Quote “Fuuuuuuuuuuuuck that hurts", moaned Reva, her abdomen ablaze with pain reminiscent of the food poisoning she’d once suffered on Sullust after eating undercooked Shaak steak from a sketchy market. Vader had left her alone to die, presumably to have one more go at force-pulling another insurgent freighter attempting to escape. The Sith Lord had grown notorious for hanging out at commercial spaceports and practicing the technique over and over on Star Tours passenger cruisers, searching for a “Rebel Spy”. Total dick move, killing the galactic tourism industry. He’d won. The bastard predicted and thwarted every move she had tried on him. Vader had mocked each thrust of the saber with the “Talk to the Hand” technique. He had countered her lunge with the “Smooth Criminal”, planting his feet while swaying backwards in an impossible arc to avoid her blade. Even the rotating action of her double blade was met with a jeering taunt from Anakin, “Ah, let’s try spinning! That’s a good trick!” “Urrrgggh!” she whimpered, the sight of that asshole Grand Inquisitor still fresh in her mind. She cursed herself for not having wiggled the saber around inside his torso when she’d run him through. Maybe if she had carved an “R” for Reva…. Reva… REV…ENGE! RE-VENGE! That was it! That old Yuuzan Vong proverb about revenge being a dish best served cold! To survive meant to draw from her anger! No problemo, she thought, closing her eyes to recall the sight of Anakin’s charred pink tongue pressing up against his metal mouth grill when he childishly taunted her with a “Nyaaah”. This was the trigger she needed. Now she was good and pissed. Let the healing begin! Be-deeep! Be-deeep! Be-deeep! There was no mistaking the ringing sound that broke her focus and rage. Rena swiftly tapped her gauntlet’s touch screen, activating the “Find My Holoprojector” application. A moment later, the aurabesh letters “Benny’s HoloPhone” appeared on her display. Dragging herself across the dirt as the signal grew louder, her wound began to contract and she grinned, thinking how fun it is to say the name Jabiim! The holoprojector found her fingers, and she tapped the “Play Messages” feature. “You have…. 27 messages”, the device said. “Play all”, commanded Reva, and the blue image of a desperate looking guy she knew from the Galactic Congress sputtered into focus. “Obi-Wan are you there? Call me.” Next message. “Obi-Wan, it’s Bail. Look, I really need to talk to you.” Next. “Ben, look, it’s not you, it’s me. Please call me back.” "It’s been an hour and I haven’t heard from you, which I don’t think is very cool" "I’ve talked to Bail Antilles and Ainlee Teen, and they think I should have heard something from you by now. "I know you’re very busy with your work and everything like that, I just don’t think it’s fair that you’re not calling me back." “Kenobi goddammit! Don’t you fucking ghost me like this! I’m a Senator you hippee!” “(Long pause) Ben? It’s Bail again. I’m sorry. Can we talk? Delete that last message. I’m dealing with things.” “Obi-Wan…. Look if you’re not gonna respond, I don’t know what I’ll do. Queen Breha won’t even give me sexy time any more. Anyways, listen carefully because I’m gonna speak in code: I’m probably going to go to atooine-Tay to check in on Uke-Ay Kywaker-Skay. You dig? We want to keep him hidden from Ader-Vay with Uncle En-Oway, if you take my meaning. “ Organa gave three exaggerated winks to the holocamera. “Anyhoo, let’s keep this on the low down, but just between us, I’ll be heading to Luke’s precise coordinates at 113.45 degrees North by 47.5 degrees East, just south of the Dune Sea. Aw, crap. I mean the Une-Day Sea. Shit. If you see the big Krayt Dragon skeleton, you’ve gone too far. Look, I gotta hang up. Call me, okay? Miss you. Bye. ” Reva was puzzled. This message was well encrypted. She would need a Master Codebreaker to unravel Organa’s clues. A thought struck like Sith Lightning and she recalled the stories of an ace pilot, top smuggler, and a poet with a blaster on Canto Bight. “Bingo!” Reva said aloud, suddenly grateful for those Fathier riding lessons Master Velti had insisted upon all those years ago. End of Chapter Raiders of the SoundtrArk, Yavar Moradi, Bespin and 4 others 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,340 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 You should actually make this, its hilarious. Andy and Yavar Moradi 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 I wasn’t really surprised that Reva turned on Vader. On the other hand, as she said herself to Kenobi, she does not have the same ojective as him: she wants to kill Anakin... and his children, since he has some. So Benny, you should explain to her the principle of "New Hope", quick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 hours ago, greenturnedblue said: Still harping on about this? I believe the issue is that Lucas, Hamill, and even the script all say the same thing but you still refuse to believe it The script says nothing on this subject, neither does any artwork, any of Lucas’ notes at the time (not that he’s above falsifying those). It’s just interviews from after the fact, and memory is suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturnedblue 372 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Quote January 1, 1976 George Lucas completes a fourth draft of The Adventures of Luke Starkiller as taken from the Journal of the Whills, Saga I: The Star Wars . This draft includes additional backstory for Darth Vader including his connection to Ben Kenobi and Luke's father. The backstory between Vader and Kenobi included a duel between the two which ends with Vader falling into a volcanic pit, necessitating the special suit and breathing mask. http://www.audiori.net/starwars/timeline1976.html Not sure why you think the site, as well as the script, Lucas and Hamill, are all incorrect. Do you have any actual evidence or are you just speculating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 I read the actual script: it’s not in there. I read much of Lucas’ personal notes: it’s not in there. There’s no artwork from the time depicting it. There was, by the way, a battle in the backstory of the third draft: battle of Condowan, but nothing about a duel with Vader nor any scarring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderdrag64 624 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Wow during the latest episode I could not believe Bail Organa was that stupid. "I know we're not supposed to communicate" he says. Well, its one thing to communicate anyway because you're worried. It's another thing entirely to give away Kenobi's home on Tatooine, the existence of Vader's children, his adopted daughter is one of them, and the other is with someone called Owen presumably near Kenobi's home. What possible reason could he have had for sending that message, other than just advancing the plot? Oswin Pond and crumbs 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturnedblue 372 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Would love to see this script you supposedly read, if that's the case you should inform the website they have incorrect information I guess the Aug 77 Rolling Stones interview where Hammill said he asked during filming about Lukes father and George told him about the duel on the edge of the volcano also doesn't matter. The duel not being in the personal GL notes you looked it or artwork does not mean George made it up afterwards. Maybe it just means it wasn't in the notes you read! Lack of evidence proving something is not evidence disproving that same thing I still don't really see any concrete evidence the duel was not always planned Oswin Pond and DarthDementous 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSH 968 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 I haven't seen Episode 5 yet but so far I'm amazed at how much the production values fluctuate... literally from scene to scene. Some bits look fantastically expensive while others appear cheap as fuck. Some really terrible direction and editing does not help things. I don't remember this being such an issue with The Mandalorian / TBOBF (aside from the Rodriguez directed eps). Holko and enderdrag64 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yavar Moradi 2,590 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 The RedLetterMedia review comments on the same thing: Yavar Muad'Dib 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,480 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 Oh com'on, use the Force and redo this shot. Raiders of the SoundtrArk and Andy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 50 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said: The RedLetterMedia review comments on the same thing: Yavar I never thought they’d cover this, it’s going to be their new Picard isn’t it 9 hours ago, Chen G. said: I think this is the first time I've ever been accused of being "disingenious." I've had "Pretentious Jerk" (which I'm thinking of putting on my wall), and I believe there were one or two accusations of racism (rich, being aimed at a Jew) but disingenious is a new one and I'm not sure I'm very appreciative of it. But I won't go into this any further. I just think the continuity in Star Wars is so loose that to try to make it make sense is...unnecessary. One need, I think, just looks at the individual entries - whether they be Episode III, Obi Wan, Rogue One or Episode V or Episode IX - as individual entries and judge them on that level. If they're done in such a way that takes away from other entries from a dramatic standpoint (which some stuff in Obi-Wan certainly does) I think that's much more meaningful than whether the mechanics of the continuity work or not. Then we have our argument about George Lucas, which at this point is probably too much of an aside to go into, but I do think history has backed me up on my complete reluctance to take a word out of that man's mouth at face value. Maybe don’t keep saying primary sources are inaccurate or lying with literally no given reason if you don’t want to be seen as disingenuous. It very much comes off as ‘why yes that source does counter my point but actually I don’t like that source so it doesn’t count and no I won’t elaborate even when prompted’ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yavar Moradi 2,590 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 9 minutes ago, DarthDementous said: I never thought they’d cover this, it’s going to be their new Picard isn’t it Actually no! Yavar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SF1_freeze 131 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 9 hours ago, Chen G. said: I just think the continuity in Star Wars is so loose that to try to make it make sense is...unnecessary. It says a lot that you support and even propone an entertainment for the dumb, for the easily entertained "switch off your brain" people. An entertainment perfect for lazy producers, lazy writers and lazy directors...who would otherwise deservedly be out of a job. I'm the opposite, i want care, excellence and quality. Not the minimum effort. I want the maximum effort in a believable and great story that makes sense and follows the rules set for the chosen fantasy world. If a story makes no sense anymore, then you can't respect it or believe anything you see or read anymore. Such a story is dead and such a franchise loses the deep fanbase that really cares. DarthDementous and Holko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturnedblue 372 Posted June 16, 2022 Share Posted June 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, SF1_freeze said: It says a lot that you support and even propone an entertainment for the dumb, for the easily entertained "switch off your brain" people If people want that they should go watch Transformers instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HunterTech 987 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 You all are arguing against the guy who has said he dislikes the MCU because it's too much of self-aware shlock that's thus hard to appreciate as a genuine project with care put into it. I really doubt his argument actually is "SW is meant to be dumb, so put your brain aside and simply consoom." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 28 minutes ago, HunterTech said: You all are arguing against the guy who has said he dislikes the MCU because it's too much of self-aware shlock that's thus hard to appreciate as a genuine project with care put into it. I really doubt his argument actually is "SW is meant to be dumb, so put your brain aside and simply consoom." Does "Star Wars doesn't really matter anymore" count as a separate argument? Because that's where I'm at. Don't really care about the continuity stuff but the show is boring as sin and bad. Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Groovygoth666 650 Posted June 17, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 17, 2022 While this episode wasn't as frustrating as the last it was still pretty frustrating. I honestly liked the AOTC clips, but feel they could have been put to better use as the opening of each episode, with the lesson reveal where it was (although that was a roll your eyes moment). The one thing on my mind is still WHY IS NO ONE GOING AFTER BAIL?!! What was the point of a tracker if Obi Wan has rescued Leia and surly he's going to Alderaan?? Was it not a throwaway line by Reva where she said after looking into the Imperial archive's that she found a link between Obi Wan and Bail? The whole plan being that by kidnapping Leia it'll force Bail to contact Obi Wan and draw him out, Bail insisted on not letting it be public that Leia was kidnapped and Obi Wan turning up means the plan worked, so would it not mean this Imperial Senator is in contact with a Jedi?! How is any argument Bail make's going to be convincing that he had absolutely nothing to do with it??!! Bail's message being "we're not meant to make contact but the silence has me worried" is incredibly dumb, not to mention his letting slip about Luke and Tatooine. Also it's now canon that almost every force user stabbed with a lightsaber is able to recover, apart from Qui Gon. Next episode guaranteed has Reva getting into the bacta tank Obi Wan was in at the start of episode 4, to heal herself before heading to Tatooine but I'm not sure if Obi Wan will kill her or turn her good. People have said about Maul, I'm glad he came back and liked what they did with him in the Clone Wars and Rebel's, but agree his return was very wishy-washy in it's explanation. It seems the siths just be really angry is the path to immortality. DarthDementous, Holko, Andy and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DarthDementous 1,059 Posted June 17, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted June 17, 2022 41 minutes ago, HunterTech said: You all are arguing against the guy who has said he dislikes the MCU because it's too much of self-aware shlock that's thus hard to appreciate as a genuine project with care put into it. I really doubt his argument actually is "SW is meant to be dumb, so put your brain aside and simply consoom." The issue is that he's giving rise to those people by setting the precedent that Star Wars has never had strong continuity so it shouldn't value it now. That's really easy to take and run with into 'turn your brain off continuity isn't important for Star Wars' I wouldn't mind that stance so much if it wasn't built on ignoring evidence to the contrary To me it's abundantly clear how much caring about continuity is important for Star Wars because some of the greatest works came out at a time that was a significant consideration for the Lucasfilm Story Group, and it facilitated a remarkably interconnected universe that greatly enhanced the overall verisimilitude. It's the reason why 40 years of expanded material didn't result in a complete mess (except for TCW bull-dozing over pre-established canon but that's a different story), and why under a decade of the new canon has. It was even more insane with the rebooted canon to not care highly about continuity considering the new precedent was that everything was on the same level of canon, meaning unlike the EU, contradictions could directly affect new films being made Groovygoth666, Yavar Moradi and Pellaeon 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 650 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 hour ago, greenturnedblue said: If people want that they should go watch Transformers instead I'll agree Transformers is very much a turn off your brain franchise, but in terms of multiple entries it's continuity is no worse than the X-MEN film's. A big problem is that when Disney bought Lucasfilm they made a big fuss about creating the story group, that everything before the purchase was now non canon and everything put out from this point was canon. But now there are several things that are in direct contradiction. So while Transformers and X-Men didn't have a group of people specifically looking over continuity, Star Wars now does, but they are failing at their job, so now the question is "what's the point of the story group?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturnedblue 372 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said: But now there are several things that are in direct contradiction What are we talking about here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 650 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 19 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said: What are we talking about here? There's Kanon during order 66, the Marvel comics differ from The Bad Batch series, Yoda's lightsaber being destroyed in a comic, but turning up in BOBF, the Obi Wan series making it explicitly clear that Leia is important, but in ESB Obi Wan seems to forget her importance altogether "That boy was our last hope" "No, there is another". Those are just the ones off the top of my head, it's been a while since I've read the comics (which are supposed to be canon). And I haven't read any of the books so can't comment on them. On 15/06/2022 at 11:48 AM, Chen G. said: I'm not taking Return of the Jedi as evidence of anything. It must be nice to be able to pick the arguments that best line up with your point, rather than presenting actual evidence. DarthDementous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthDementous 1,059 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 40 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said: I'll agree Transformers is very much a turn off your brain franchise, but in terms of multiple entries it's continuity is no worse than the X-MEN film's. A big problem is that when Disney bought Lucasfilm they made a big fuss about creating the story group, that everything before the purchase was now non canon and everything put out from this point was canon. But now there are several things that are in direct contradiction. So while Transformers and X-Men didn't have a group of people specifically looking over continuity, Star Wars now does, but they are failing at their job, so now the question is "what's the point of the story group?" The fuss about creating the story group is hilarious to me because it already existed with very similar members to what it does now (e.g. Pablo Hidalgo). However the priorities for the story group shifted significantly, it's really telling to compare older quotes of Hidalgo to what he says now, he's almost done a complete face-heel turn They're not shy about it either, the story group has straight up admitted that continuity is not a high priority to them which is in direct contradiction to what their priorities used to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 650 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 11 minutes ago, DarthDementous said: The fuss about creating the story group is hilarious to me because it already existed with very similar members to what it does now (e.g. Pablo Hidalgo). However the priorities for the story group shifted significantly, it's really telling to compare older quotes of Hidalgo to what he says now, he's almost done a complete face-heel turn They're not shy about it either, the story group has straight up admitted that continuity is not a high priority to them which is in direct contradiction to what their priorities used to be Yeah it's interesting about Pablo Hidalgo, just look at the fuss around Star Wars Theory. Pablo got the job because of his whole organisation of star wars canon and it's different tiers, but seems to not care about actually making sure everything line's up, which again forces the question, what is the point of the story group? DarthDementous 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 5 hours ago, greenturnedblue said: I guess the Aug 77 Rolling Stones interview where Hammill said he asked during filming about Lukes father and George told him about the duel on the edge of the volcano also doesn't matter. The duel not being in the personal GL notes you looked it or artwork does not mean George made it up afterwards. Maybe it just means it wasn't in the notes you read! Lack of evidence proving something is not evidence disproving that same thing By that point, Lucas himself had come up with the idea of the duel and spoke about it, and it seems to me that Hamil’s recollections are coloured by this: Hamil has done this quite a lot. He has described seeing a script that frames the piece as a Wookie fairytale…a script that as far as we can tell never existed. He claimed he spoke to Lucas on set about why he’s doing the fourth episode of a twelve-film series, which as far as we can tell was never a thing at the time. It’s very easy to let one’s recollections be affected by headlines, so to speak. And yes, arguments Ex Silentio are discredited in pure logic. But they’re used in historiography often and in the case of the development history of Star Wars, which is so filled with deliberate, after-the-fact misinformation by Lucas, I think it’s prudent to take that stance which is: if it isn’t appearant in production materials, it probably wasn’t a thing. 3 hours ago, DarthDementous said: The issue is that he's giving rise to those people by setting the precedent that Star Wars has never had strong continuity so it shouldn't value it now. That's really easy to take and run with into 'turn your brain off continuity isn't important for Star Wars' No, I’m saying Star Wars STILL doesn’t have good continuity and so to try and force it into making sense is silly. 4 hours ago, DarthDementous said: Maybe don’t keep saying primary sources are inaccurate or lying. Are you taking the assertion that George Lucas is a liar as a personal affrontery? That’s too bad, because he is. All of the literature - recent biographies of his, Kaminski’s Secret History of Star Wars and his other essays, Chris Taylor’s How Star Wars Conquered the Universe, Kitbashd, etc… - all point invariably to this. We know he even does it to his friends: Steven Spielberg admitted on camera that Lucas lied to him about having three Indy stories lined up. “As it turned out, George did not have three stories.” Quite. You can take it as a personal insult to the man, maybe to yourself. But it’s not, as such. It’s just a fact. Other artists have also tried to falsify or embellish aspects of their past works: Sergio Leone was a known liar; David Lean lied about some of his films, insisting for years that Sam Spiegel cut Lawrence of Arabia when in fact all the cuts were made by Lean himself. Wagner gives us a totally false impression of how he wrote The Flying Dutchman. It’s very common to recontextualize art according to an artist’s more recent ouvre, and the whole “it was always intended to be the way it turned out” is a big one for a lot of such artists, because it presents a certain view of art which a lot of artists hold as an ideal. George Lucas is at the absolute extreme of this: he had produced doctored versions of the original scripts to perpetuate that it was always “Episode IV” (it wasn’t) and that it was always going to feature an alien Jabba (it wasn’t) and falsified bits of his notes to insinuate that Midichlorians were always a thing and stuff to that effect. So excuse me for not taking his word as far as I can throw it. Is he sometimes telling the truth? Of course. I always doubted, for instance, that Lucas came up with the idea of Indy at the time that he claims he did, which would be in the thick of writing Star Wars, but in that case he seems to be telling the truth. In these cases, though, I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturnedblue 372 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 57 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said: There's Kanon during order 66, the Marvel comics differ from The Bad Batch series, Yoda's lightsaber being destroyed in a comic, but turning up in BOBF, the Obi Wan series making it explicitly clear that Leia is important, but in ESB Obi Wan seems to forget her importance altogether "That boy was our last hope" "No, there is another". Those are just the ones off the top of my head, it's been a while since I've read the comics (which are supposed to be canon). And I haven't read any of the books so can't comment on them. Also JJ reportedly made it a condition for him coming on to 9 that he could ignore the story group.. which is allegedly why Kiri Hart the head of LFL Story Group and Stephen Feder VP of Film Development at Lucasfilm left 30 minutes ago, Chen G. said: By that point, Lucas himself had come up with the idea of the duel and spoke about it, and it seems to me that Hamil’s recollections are coloured by this: Hamil has done this quite a lot. He has described seeing a script that frames the piece as a Wookie fairytale…a script that as far as we can tell never existed. He claimed he spoke to Lucas on set about why he’s doing the fourth episode of a twelve-film series, which as far as we can tell was never a thing at the time. It’s very easy to let one’s recollections be affected by headlines, so to speak. Seems you are forgetting that early on RotJ had Wookiees not Ewoks as per producer Gary Kurtz in the Revenge of the Sith blu ray commentary. Obviously this is why Hamill speaks of the 'Wookiee fairlytale', because thats what was originally planned but cut due to budget concerns, it isnt as if he made it up out of thin air. You can read here that Lucas and Hamill spoke of this 12-film plan back in 1976 during filming of A New Hope. Im not sure why you think this "was never a thing at the time", when 1976 is obviously prior to the Aug 77 interview where Lucas reveals details about the duel on the edge of the volcano. The pictures of this 12 film plan are right there in the link, they were quite indeed a thing at the time. Time magazine also reported in 78 that work would soon begin on the sequel, ESB, and '10 more sequels'. Seems like both the volcano fight and 12 films were planned at the time. In fact, Lucas envisioned 12 films as early as 1975, but probably realized this was unnecessary or that he just didnt want to anymore as began to get burnt out and time went on. Gary Kurtz also said in 99 that prior to 1980, the plan was for the entire Star Wars timeline to take place over 9 films. episode 6 would have been about Han sacrificing himself to defeat the Death Star 2 and Luke confronting Vader but failing, 7 was about Lukes life as a Jedi, 8 was about Luke finding his long lost sister and 9 was about Luke defeating the Emperor. You can see that this makes up the broad strokes for RotJ. Kurtz only worked for Lucas til 1980 so he would have had to learn about the plan at some point before then. Then, probably during development of RotJ Lucas realized this all worked better as one single film and amalgamated it all into film, leaving us with the 6 movies that got made. Also back on topic, I saw on TV tonight Moses Ingram in a Dove body wash commercial Oswin Pond and DarthDementous 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 650 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 9 hours ago, greenturnedblue said: Also JJ reportedly made it a condition for him coming on to 9 that he could ignore the story group.. which is allegedly why Kiri Hart the head of LFL Story Group and Stephen Feder VP of Film Development at Lucasfilm left Do you have a source for this? Prior to TFA the only media Disney had put out was Marvel's ongoing Star Wars comic, Kanan and Darth Vader. At least four novels (TARKIN, HEIR TO THE JEDI, LORDS OF THE SITH and A NEW DAWN) and the Rebels cartoon. With TFA seemingly not contradicting anything established in those it seems weird that they would leave over JJs instance to ignore what was now canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 41 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said: Seems you are forgetting that early on RotJ had Wookiees not Ewoks as per producer Gary Kurtz in the Revenge of the Sith blu ray commentary. Obviously this is why Hamill speaks of the 'Wookiee fairlytale', because thats what was originally planned but cut due to budget concerns, it isnt as if he made it up out of thin air. The Ewoks were inspired by Wookiee from early drafts of Star Wars, but Hamil is describing script pages that describe a Wookie family reading about the adventures of Luke as a framing device: that was never a thing. 41 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said: You can read here that Lucas and Hamill spoke of this 12-film plan back in 1976 during filming of A New Hope. Im not sure why you think this "was never a thing at the time", when 1976 is obviously prior to the Aug 77 interview where Lucas reveals details about the duel on the edge of the volcano. The pictures of this 12 film plan are right there in the link, they were quite indeed a thing at the time. Time magazine also reported in 78 that work would soon begin on the sequel, ESB, and '10 more sequels'. Seems like both the volcano fight and 12 films were planned at the time. In fact, Lucas envisioned 12 films as early as 1975, but probably realized this was unnecessary or that he just didnt want to anymore as began to get burnt out and time went on. The quotes about the 12-film plan are all from 1978, not from 1976 or 1975. The document appended is also estimated as being from that period, and even here I suspect possible falsification insofar as some of the notes Lucas jotted under the original film (here Episode VI) are reproduction of notes, slightly doctored, from his 1974 notes: “Kane Highsinger/Jedi friend; Leia Aquilae/princess; General Vader/Imperial Commander; Han Solo/friend” and here “Han Solo/Pirate Leia/Princess. Also Darth Vader.” Why would Lucas even need to add to this document a plot synopsis to a movie he just made? 41 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said: Gary Kurtz also said in 99 that prior to 1980, the plan was for the entire Star Wars timeline to take place over 9 films. episode 6 would have been about Han sacrificing himself to defeat the Death Star 2 and Luke confronting Vader but failing, 7 was about Lukes life as a Jedi, 8 was about Luke finding his long lost sister and 9 was about Luke defeating the Emperor. You can see that this makes up the broad strokes for RotJ. Kurtz only worked for Lucas til 1980 so he would have had to learn about the plan at some point before then. Then, probably during development of RotJ Lucas realized this all worked better as one single film and amalgamated it all into film, leaving us with the 6 movies that got made. Kaminski and Taylor both show that Kurtz’ memories (and this all taken from interviews of Kurtz from the nineties or later) are just as suspect as Hamil’s or anyone else’s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon 593 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 They did use the Wookiee conceit in the 1978 Holiday Special (the family watching the Boba Fett cartoon, among other things), more or less, so it’s not far-fetched that George had that idea at one point. There’s also the whole framing device of the story being from the “Journal of the Whills” which of course survives in the original novelization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, Pellaeon said: it’s not far-fetched that George had that idea at one point. There’s also the whole framing device of the story being from the “Journal of the Whills” which of course survives in the original novelization. Yeah, but Hamil is describing supposed script drafts that had this as a literal framing device, which (1) had not been found in spite of Rinzler’s exhaustive investigation of the archives and (2) doesn’t read like a Lucas script insofar as Hamil recalls it describing a camera move, which Lucas never does. Memory being suspect seems to me to be the best explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 650 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 This is offer's a pretty thorough timeline of the star wars story after the fact https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/George-Lucas-Star-Wars-Creator-Unreliable-Narrator-Time-Travelling-Revisionist/id/66986 Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,499 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 3 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said: I honestly liked the AOTC clips, but feel they could have been put to better use as the opening of each episode, with the lesson reveal where it was (although that was a roll your eyes moment). I thought most of them had no real point other than to make prequel fanboys wee themselves. And of course it had to be shot on the one set they already used in the first scene of the season. I liked the Vader/Reva duel, creative use of the Force there and a nice show of Vader's clear superiority. Also liked he Obi/Reva scenes even if he just ends up using her as an expendable distraction. But man, the action is mostly still ludicrous, the direction sucks, Volume sets look tiny and cheap, the script is still just copypasted from other episodes and Episodes, glued together by 7 year olds with riveting details like "the tracker turns Leia's droid evil and makes its eye go red! Oh no! What is she gonna do? Oh, she just takes it off. Yaay!" I just can't believe they pull the dumbass tros chewie "there was another shuttle" shit again just to make Vader ZoMg FoRce UnlEaShed LeveL EpIc ZomG sO coOl, but then instantly a dumbass again as he just lets the second one leave instead of pulling that one back too. Groovygoth666 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 12 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said: This is offer's a pretty thorough timeline of the star wars story after the fact https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/George-Lucas-Star-Wars-Creator-Unreliable-Narrator-Time-Travelling-Revisionist/id/66986 This is a good one, but I think there’s even more to be made of some these topics. For instance, I think much of Lucas’ early years is kinda souped-up, both in his assertion that he “kind of fell into film” and in making it seem as though he was well on his way to becoming an Anthropology professor but decided to pour his understanding of humanity into cinema instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturnedblue 372 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 9 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said: Do you have a source for this? Prior to TFA the only media Disney had put out was Marvel's ongoing Star Wars comic, Kanan and Darth Vader. At least four novels (TARKIN, HEIR TO THE JEDI, LORDS OF THE SITH and A NEW DAWN) and the Rebels cartoon. With TFA seemingly not contradicting anything established in those it seems weird that they would leave over JJs instance to ignore what was now canon. It is all conjecture which is why I said 'allegedly' and 'reportedly' but it is from /r/starwarsleaks back when IX came out. If it were true it would seem obvious JJ wanted to take Snoke in a different direction then what the story group had intended. Spoiler Seems like Snoke was meant to just be an ordinary person, then JJ and Chris Terrio came up with the magnificent idea to "somehow Palpatine returned" etc. and have Snoke been a puppet grown by Palpy, ignoring what the story group had been working on in the comics. Someone else in the comments say that in Bloodline (I havnt read it) Leia has never trained to be a jedi ever. But what happens in 9? We see a flashback to Leia training to be a jedi 9 hours ago, Chen G. said: The quotes about the 12-film plan are all from 1978, not from 1976 or 1975. The quote I linked you literally is Mark Hamill, talking about the 12 film plan, during principal photography in Tunisia, in 1976! 8 hours ago, Chen G. said: Rinzler’s exhaustive investigation of the archives You mean "Lucas has occasionally sent me via an assistant miscellaneous handwritten notes from the period 1976-1983 to help in the writing of the making-of books"? Some exhaustive search! Im not surprised he didnt come up with anything, seems like he wasnt provided much at all 9 hours ago, Chen G. said: Hamil is describing script pages that describe a Wookie family reading about the adventures of Luke as a framing device: that was never a thing. 9 hours ago, Chen G. said: here I suspect falsification insofar as some of the notes Lucas jotted under the original film (here Episode VI) are reproduction of notes from elsewhere. 9 hours ago, Chen G. said: Kaminski and Taylor both show that Kurtz’ memories (and this all taken from interviews of Kurtz from the nineties or later) are just as suspect as Hamil’s or anyone else’s. There isnt really any point in trying to have a conversation with you, because for every piece of evidence I bring up you seem to think they are lying. In that case Hamill, Lucas, Kurtz, the Star Wars website, and anyone else in the know are all lying about it DarthDementous and Oswin Pond 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 650 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Holko said: I thought most of them had no real point other than to make prequel fanboys wee themselves. And of course it had to be shot on the one set they already used in the first scene of the season. Oh it was absolutely designed to tug at those heart strings. Overall each segment was meant to break down the different fighting style and philosophy of Obi Wan and Anakin, while showing where they were at mentally in the episode. Having each episode start with a segment from this would have been a great bit of continuity and framing of that episode, with the culmination being the lesson Obi Wan is trying to teach Anakin, your focus on victory blinds you. It being on the same set as the first episode for me isn't that bad, how different is that room from the one in AOTC where Yoda is teaching the younglings or ROTS where the kid says "Master Skywalker there are too many of them, what are we going to do?". It's a cheap way to resuse a set but not unprecedented. enderdrag64 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 5 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said: Mark Hamill, talking about the 12 film plan, during principal photography in Tunisia, in 1976! No, it’s Mark Hamil recalling that he spoke to Lucas in 1976 about it. Read Kaminski, for starters. It’s an older book - published before some of Rinzler’s later publications - and at times it’s overreaching with some of its conclusions (especially regarding the sequel trilogy), but it’s still a superb piece of historical research into the development history of these films. I do think I should recall my assessment of the document as being falsified: I think Lucas drafted this document in 1978 to decide on what number episode to give to his sequel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturnedblue 372 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Chen G. said: No, it’s Mark Hamil recalling that he spoke to Lucas in 1976 about it. im quite sure Hamill is capable of recalling that the conversation he had with George during filming for A New Hope in Tunisia took place in 1976. Obviously they were not filming for the movie after it had come out in 77 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 The point is that the quote itself is NOT from 1976 - it’s from 2004! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 650 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said: It is all conjecture which is why I said 'allegedly' and 'reportedly' but it is from /r/starwarsleaks back when IX came out. If it were true it would seem obvious JJ wanted to take Snoke in a different direction then what the story group had intended. Reveal hidden contents Right, I get why you said allegedly and reportedly, that's why I asked for a source, but that reddit link doesn't work for me (says site can't be reached?). What comic are those panels from? Sorry I'm now just realising I've misunderstood and that you're talking about Rise of Skywalker not TFA. But that further proves the story group has failed, their one job was to make sure everything works across all media, sure JJ may have wanted to change Snokes origin but does that contradict what's in the page you've linked to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,499 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 20 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said: Having each episode start with a segment from this would have been a great bit of continuity and framing of that episode, with the culmination being the lesson Obi Wan is trying to teach Anakin, your focus on victory blinds you. Okay, this could've been neat, but I'll go further, include scenes from all over their relationship, flesh it out a bit better than Lucas did. As it is right now, what we have is "Wow, how does Obi know Vader is aggressive? Oh, because Anakin was once aggressive in some random training fight they had!" 23 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said: It being on the same set as the first episode for me isn't that bad, how different is that room from the one in AOTC where Yoda is teaching the younglings or ROTS where the kid says "Master Skywalker there are too many of them, what are we going to do?". It's a cheap way to resuse a set but not unprecedented. I dunno, I guess my issue would be more with this being the only room of the Temple we've seen in the series so far in addition to some CG walkways. Groovygoth666 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,943 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Holko said: As it is right now, what we have is "Wow, how does Obi know Vader is aggressive? Oh, because Anakin was once aggressive in some random training fight they had!" I thought the way those sequences were intercut worked quite well. It is curious that they staged it at a time since before Anakin lost a hand. Making this a sequence that takes place after the bulk of Attack of the Clones may have been better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturnedblue 372 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 Sorry about that I fixed the link. Im not sure which issue but the comic is Star Wars Rise of Kylo Ren. The contradiction is that the story group had intended for Snoke to just be a regular guy who emerged from the shadows, so to speak. I recall talk around when Episode 8 came out that the backstory for Snoke was that he had always been around during the events of the previous movies. Then JJ came in for 9 and made it so he was grown in a vat. The story group indeed failed in the sense Snoke's backstory was now contradictory between the comics and 9, but according to the reddit post one of JJ's terms for coming onto 9 was to ignore the story group. So I suppose it was the Disney suits that put the story group in a position where they could be ignored and are ultimately responsible for the story groups failure. That would piss me off if I were them, and I wouldnt be surprised if thats why they jumped ship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groovygoth666 650 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Holko said: Okay, this could've been neat, but I'll go further, include scenes from all over their relationship, flesh it out a bit better than Lucas did. As it is right now, what we have is "Wow, how does Obi know Vader is aggressive? Oh, because Anakin was once aggressive in some random training fight they had!" Absolutely, having flashbacks to during the Clone Wars and fleshing out their relationship, something ROTS is sorely missing, would be a great bit of filling in the blanks. Now the Clone Wars did a fantastic job of showing this, but for people who didn't watch it this show was a chance to help contextualise Obi Wan and Anakin as brothers through flashbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenturnedblue 372 Posted June 17, 2022 Share Posted June 17, 2022 13 minutes ago, Chen G. said: The point is that the quote itself is NOT from 1976 - it’s from 2004! If this is what you want to nitpick then where else could the quote be from? According to Hamill he and George had the conversation in Tunisia filming A New Hope in 76. Like I said it couldnt have happened after the film came out because they were filming it. It certainly did not happen during filming for ESB or RotJ because they were not in Tunisia for filming and by RotJ George had already changed his mind about the 12 film plan anyways. I doubt he misremembered the filming for A New Hope in 76 for filming of Phantom Menace in Tunisia because 1. it is 20+ years later, and 2. he wasnt even there! There is literally no other time except 76 Hamill and Lucas could have had the conversation Hamill is not an idiot, im sure he can remember the conversation took place in Tunisia. they probably had conversations about the future of Star Wars several times over the years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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