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I am increasingly unsettled that Season 2 will be Reva on a quest to get Luke to spite Vader.

 

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Luke will survive.  It's another goddam prequel.

 

31 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

 

In relation to this week's episode, they've introduced some new things into the universe (for this era anyway) which I think are pretty damn harmful

For one, they've pretty much written in stone that if you're driven by a strong desire for revenge you can survive fatal wounds such as being impaled. Reva does it as a youngling (???) and then again as an adult, the Grand Inquisitor does it and straight up lamp-shades this by saying something along the lines of "Revenge sure can do wonders for the will to live". I don't know why anyone in their right mind would look at Darth Maul's inexplicable survival and then have that be the new precedent. Utterly unbelievable that Vader doesn't finish the job when Reva is very clearly still alive after being stabbed, especially when he already knows that Reva has done this trick before as a youngling
 

 

This is really undermining the whole point of Revenge of the Sith, that the pathway to immortality was through selflessness and willingness to let go of attachments and desires.

 

Plagueis was right all along I guess?

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5 minutes ago, Andy said:

I am increasingly unsettled that Season 2 will be Reva on a quest to get Luke to spite Vader.

 

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This is really undermining the whole point of Revenge of the Sith, that the pathway to immortality was through selflessness and willingness to let go of attachments and desires.

 

Plagueis was right all along I guess?


Hah, funnily enough I'm in the middle of listening to the Plagueis audiobook. I really like the way he frames the Sith to Palpatine as the original Force practitioners instead of the corruption the Jedi always paint them as because "darkness always exists before there is light", and his commentary about how the Banite Sith laugh at the Jedi's notion that getting rid of all the Sith would bring balance to the Force is also fascinating

These are all perspectives that paint the Sith as a fully-formed ideology that I wish were in the Prequel movies so I could actually get a sense of what it means to be a Sith beyond a corrupted Jedi

It'll never cease to be jarring going from current Star Wars to the old expanded universe (except for some of the novels I suppose), the gulf is actually mind-blowing. They pretty much are completely different universes

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2 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Don't bother. @Chen G. will selectively pick things out of your response and ignore anything that directly contradicts what they already believe. Save yourself the headache in the future of conversing with someone so amazingly disingenuous

 

I think this is the first time I've ever been accused of being "disingenious."

 

I've had "Pretentious Jerk" (which I'm thinking of putting on my wall), and I believe there were one or two accusations of racism (rich, being aimed at a Jew) but disingenious is a new one and I'm not sure I'm very appreciative of it. But I won't go into this any further.

 

I just think the continuity in Star Wars is so loose that to try to make it make sense is...unnecessary. One need, I think, just looks at the individual entries - whether they be Episode III, Obi Wan, Rogue One or Episode V or Episode IX - as individual entries and judge them on that level. If they're done in such a way that takes away from other entries from a dramatic standpoint (which some stuff in Obi-Wan certainly does) I think that's much more meaningful than whether the mechanics of the continuity work or not.

 

Then we have our argument about George Lucas, which at this point is probably too much of an aside to go into, but I do think history has backed me up on my complete reluctance to take a word out of that man's mouth at face value.

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I wasn’t really surprised that Reva turned on Vader. On the other hand, as she said herself to Kenobi, she does not have the same ojective as him: she wants to kill Anakin... and his children, since he has some.

 

So Benny, you should explain to her the principle of "New Hope", quick!

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2 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Still harping on about this? I believe the issue is that Lucas, Hamill, and even the script all say the same thing but you still refuse to believe it


The script says nothing on this subject, neither does any artwork, any of Lucas’ notes at the time (not that he’s above falsifying those). It’s just interviews from after the fact, and memory is suspect.

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Quote

 

January 1, 1976

George Lucas completes a fourth draft of The Adventures of Luke Starkiller as taken from the Journal of the Whills, Saga I: The Star Wars . This draft includes additional backstory for Darth Vader including his connection to Ben Kenobi and Luke's father. The backstory between Vader and Kenobi included a duel between the two which ends with Vader falling into a volcanic pit, necessitating the special suit and breathing mask.

 

http://www.audiori.net/starwars/timeline1976.html

 

Not sure why you think the site, as well as the script, Lucas and Hamill, are all incorrect. Do you have any actual evidence or are you just speculating

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I read the actual script: it’s not in there.

 

I read much of Lucas’ personal notes: it’s not in there. There’s no artwork from the time depicting it.

 

There was, by the way, a battle in the backstory of the third draft: battle of Condowan, but nothing about a duel with Vader nor any scarring.

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Wow during the latest episode I could not believe Bail Organa was that stupid.

 

"I know we're not supposed to communicate" he says. Well, its one thing to communicate anyway because you're worried. It's another thing entirely to give away Kenobi's home on Tatooine, the existence of Vader's children, his adopted daughter is one of them, and the other is with someone called Owen presumably near Kenobi's home. 

 

What possible reason could he have had for sending that message, other than just advancing the plot?

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Would love to see this script you supposedly read, if that's the case you should inform the website they have incorrect information

 

I guess the Aug 77 Rolling Stones interview where Hammill said he asked during filming about Lukes father and George told him about the duel on the edge of the volcano also doesn't matter.

 

The duel not being in the personal GL notes you looked it or artwork does not mean George made it up afterwards. Maybe it just means it wasn't in the notes you read! Lack of evidence proving something is not evidence disproving that same thing

 

I still don't really see any concrete evidence the duel was not always planned

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I haven't seen Episode 5 yet but so far I'm amazed at how much the production values fluctuate... literally from scene to scene.

 

Some bits look fantastically expensive while others appear cheap as fuck. Some really terrible direction and editing does not help things. I don't remember this being such an issue with The Mandalorian / TBOBF (aside from the Rodriguez directed eps).

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50 minutes ago, Yavar Moradi said:

The RedLetterMedia review comments on the same thing:

 

 

Yavar


I never thought they’d cover this, it’s going to be their new Picard isn’t it

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

I think this is the first time I've ever been accused of being "disingenious."

 

I've had "Pretentious Jerk" (which I'm thinking of putting on my wall), and I believe there were one or two accusations of racism (rich, being aimed at a Jew) but disingenious is a new one and I'm not sure I'm very appreciative of it. But I won't go into this any further.

 

I just think the continuity in Star Wars is so loose that to try to make it make sense is...unnecessary. One need, I think, just looks at the individual entries - whether they be Episode III, Obi Wan, Rogue One or Episode V or Episode IX - as individual entries and judge them on that level. If they're done in such a way that takes away from other entries from a dramatic standpoint (which some stuff in Obi-Wan certainly does) I think that's much more meaningful than whether the mechanics of the continuity work or not.

 

Then we have our argument about George Lucas, which at this point is probably too much of an aside to go into, but I do think history has backed me up on my complete reluctance to take a word out of that man's mouth at face value.


Maybe don’t keep saying primary sources are inaccurate or lying with literally no given reason if you don’t want to be seen as disingenuous. It very much comes off as ‘why yes that source does counter my point but actually I don’t like that source so it doesn’t count and no I won’t elaborate even when prompted’

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9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

I just think the continuity in Star Wars is so loose that to try to make it make sense is...unnecessary.

 

It says a lot that you support and even propone an entertainment for the dumb, for the easily entertained "switch off your brain" people.

An entertainment perfect for lazy producers, lazy writers and lazy directors...who would otherwise deservedly be out of a job.

 

I'm the opposite, i want care, excellence and quality. Not the minimum effort. I want the maximum effort in a believable and great story that makes sense and follows the rules set for the chosen fantasy world.

If a story makes no sense anymore, then you can't respect it or believe anything you see or read anymore. Such a story is dead and such a franchise loses the deep fanbase that really cares.

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2 minutes ago, SF1_freeze said:

It says a lot that you support and even propone an entertainment for the dumb, for the easily entertained "switch off your brain" people

 

If people want that they should go watch Transformers instead

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You all are arguing against the guy who has said he dislikes the MCU because it's too much of self-aware shlock that's thus hard to appreciate as a genuine project with care put into it. I really doubt his argument actually is "SW is meant to be dumb, so put your brain aside and simply consoom."

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28 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

You all are arguing against the guy who has said he dislikes the MCU because it's too much of self-aware shlock that's thus hard to appreciate as a genuine project with care put into it. I really doubt his argument actually is "SW is meant to be dumb, so put your brain aside and simply consoom."

Does "Star Wars doesn't really matter anymore" count as a separate argument?  Because that's where I'm at.  Don't really care about the continuity stuff but the show is boring as sin and bad.  

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1 hour ago, greenturnedblue said:

 

If people want that they should go watch Transformers instead

I'll agree Transformers is very much a turn off your brain franchise, but in terms of multiple entries it's continuity is no worse than the X-MEN film's.

 

A big problem is that when Disney bought Lucasfilm they made a big fuss about creating the story group, that everything before the purchase was now non canon and everything put out from this point was canon. But now there are several things that are in direct contradiction. So while Transformers and X-Men didn't have a group of people specifically looking over continuity, Star Wars now does, but they are failing at their job, so now the question is "what's the point of the story group?"

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19 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

What are we talking about here?

There's Kanon during order 66, the Marvel comics differ from The Bad Batch series, Yoda's lightsaber being destroyed in a comic, but turning up in BOBF, the Obi Wan series making it explicitly clear that Leia is important, but in ESB Obi Wan seems to forget her importance altogether "That boy was our last hope" "No, there is another". Those are just the ones off the top of my head, it's been a while since I've read the comics (which are supposed to be canon). And I haven't read any of the books so can't comment on them.

On 15/06/2022 at 11:48 AM, Chen G. said:

 

I'm not taking Return of the Jedi as evidence of anything.

It must be nice to be able to pick the arguments that best line up with your point, rather than presenting actual evidence.

 

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40 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said:

I'll agree Transformers is very much a turn off your brain franchise, but in terms of multiple entries it's continuity is no worse than the X-MEN film's.

 

A big problem is that when Disney bought Lucasfilm they made a big fuss about creating the story group, that everything before the purchase was now non canon and everything put out from this point was canon. But now there are several things that are in direct contradiction. So while Transformers and X-Men didn't have a group of people specifically looking over continuity, Star Wars now does, but they are failing at their job, so now the question is "what's the point of the story group?"


The fuss about creating the story group is hilarious to me because it already existed with very similar members to what it does now (e.g. Pablo Hidalgo). However the priorities for the story group shifted significantly, it's really telling to compare older quotes of Hidalgo to what he says now, he's almost done a complete face-heel turn

They're not shy about it either, the story group has straight up admitted that continuity is not a high priority to them which is in direct contradiction to what their priorities used to be

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11 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:


The fuss about creating the story group is hilarious to me because it already existed with very similar members to what it does now (e.g. Pablo Hidalgo). However the priorities for the story group shifted significantly, it's really telling to compare older quotes of Hidalgo to what he says now, he's almost done a complete face-heel turn

They're not shy about it either, the story group has straight up admitted that continuity is not a high priority to them which is in direct contradiction to what their priorities used to be

Yeah it's interesting about Pablo Hidalgo, just look at the fuss around Star Wars Theory. Pablo got the job because of his whole organisation of star wars canon and it's different tiers, but seems to not care about actually making sure everything line's up, which again forces the question, what is the point of the story group?

 

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5 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

I guess the Aug 77 Rolling Stones interview where Hammill said he asked during filming about Lukes father and George told him about the duel on the edge of the volcano also doesn't matter.

 

The duel not being in the personal GL notes you looked it or artwork does not mean George made it up afterwards. Maybe it just means it wasn't in the notes you read! Lack of evidence proving something is not evidence disproving that same thing


By that point, Lucas himself had come up with the idea of the duel and spoke about it, and it seems to me that Hamil’s recollections are coloured by this: Hamil has done this quite a lot. He has described seeing a script that frames the piece as a Wookie fairytale…a script that as far as we can tell never existed. He claimed he spoke to Lucas on set about why he’s doing the fourth episode of a twelve-film series, which as far as we can tell was never a thing at the time. It’s very easy to let one’s recollections be affected by headlines, so to speak.

 

And yes, arguments Ex Silentio are discredited in pure logic. But they’re used in historiography often and in the case of the development history of Star Wars, which is so filled with deliberate, after-the-fact misinformation by Lucas, I think it’s prudent to take that stance which is: if it isn’t appearant in production materials, it probably wasn’t a thing.

 

3 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

The issue is that he's giving rise to those people by setting the precedent that Star Wars has never had strong continuity so it shouldn't value it now. That's really easy to take and run with into 'turn your brain off continuity isn't important for Star Wars'


No, I’m saying Star Wars STILL doesn’t have good continuity and so to try and force it into making sense is silly.

 

4 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Maybe don’t keep saying primary sources are inaccurate or lying.


Are you taking the assertion that George Lucas is a liar as a personal affrontery? That’s too bad, because he is. All of the literature - recent biographies of his, Kaminski’s Secret History of Star Wars and his other essays, Chris Taylor’s How Star Wars Conquered the Universe, Kitbashd, etc… - all point invariably to this. We know he even does it to his friends: Steven Spielberg admitted on camera that Lucas lied to him about having three Indy stories lined up. “As it turned out, George did not have three stories.” Quite. You can take it as a personal insult to the man, maybe to yourself. But it’s not, as such. It’s just a fact.

 

Other artists have also tried to falsify or embellish aspects of their past works: Sergio Leone was a known liar; David Lean lied about some of his films, insisting for years that Sam Spiegel cut Lawrence of Arabia when in fact all the cuts were made by Lean himself. Wagner gives us a totally false impression of how he wrote The Flying Dutchman. It’s very common to recontextualize art according to an artist’s more recent ouvre, and the whole “it was always intended to be the way it turned out” is a big one for a lot of such artists, because it presents a certain view of art which a lot of artists hold as an ideal.

 

George Lucas is at the absolute extreme of this: he had produced doctored versions of the original scripts to perpetuate that it was always “Episode IV” (it wasn’t) and that it was always going to feature an alien Jabba (it wasn’t) and falsified bits of his notes to insinuate that Midichlorians were always a thing and stuff to that effect. So excuse me for not taking his word as far as I can throw it.

 

Is he sometimes telling the truth? Of course. I always doubted, for instance, that Lucas came up with the idea of Indy at the time that he claims he did, which would be in the thick of writing Star Wars, but in that case he seems to be telling the truth. In these cases, though, I think not.

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57 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said:

There's Kanon during order 66, the Marvel comics differ from The Bad Batch series, Yoda's lightsaber being destroyed in a comic, but turning up in BOBF, the Obi Wan series making it explicitly clear that Leia is important, but in ESB Obi Wan seems to forget her importance altogether "That boy was our last hope" "No, there is another". Those are just the ones off the top of my head, it's been a while since I've read the comics (which are supposed to be canon). And I haven't read any of the books so can't comment on them.

Also JJ reportedly made it a condition for him coming on to 9 that he could ignore the story group.. which is allegedly why Kiri Hart the head of LFL Story Group and Stephen Feder VP of Film Development at Lucasfilm left

 

 

30 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

By that point, Lucas himself had come up with the idea of the duel and spoke about it, and it seems to me that Hamil’s recollections are coloured by this: Hamil has done this quite a lot. He has described seeing a script that frames the piece as a Wookie fairytale…a script that as far as we can tell never existed. He claimed he spoke to Lucas on set about why he’s doing the fourth episode of a twelve-film series, which as far as we can tell was never a thing at the time. It’s very easy to let one’s recollections be affected by headlines, so to speak.

Seems you are forgetting that early on RotJ had Wookiees not Ewoks as per producer Gary Kurtz in the Revenge of the Sith blu ray commentary. Obviously this is why Hamill speaks of the 'Wookiee fairlytale', because thats what was originally planned but cut due to budget concerns, it isnt as if he made it up out of thin air.

 

You can read here that Lucas and Hamill spoke of this 12-film plan back in 1976 during filming of A New Hope. Im not sure why you think this "was never a thing at the time", when 1976 is obviously prior to the Aug 77 interview where Lucas reveals details about the duel on the edge of the volcano. The pictures of this 12 film plan are right there in the link, they were quite indeed a thing at the time. Time magazine also reported in 78 that work would soon begin on the sequel, ESB, and '10 more sequels'. Seems like both the volcano fight and 12 films were planned at the time. In fact, Lucas envisioned 12 films as early as 1975, but probably realized this was unnecessary or that he just didnt want to anymore as began to get burnt out and time went on.

 

Gary Kurtz also said in 99 that prior to 1980, the plan was for the entire Star Wars timeline to take place over 9 films. episode 6 would have been about Han sacrificing himself to defeat the Death Star 2 and Luke confronting Vader but failing, 7 was about Lukes life as a Jedi, 8 was about Luke finding his long lost sister and 9 was about Luke defeating the Emperor. You can see that this makes up the broad strokes for RotJ. Kurtz only worked for Lucas til 1980 so he would have had to learn about the plan at some point before then. Then, probably during development of RotJ Lucas realized this all worked better as one single film and amalgamated it all into film, leaving us with the 6 movies that got made.

 

Also back on topic, I saw on TV tonight Moses Ingram in a Dove body wash commercial

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9 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Also JJ reportedly made it a condition for him coming on to 9 that he could ignore the story group.. which is allegedly why Kiri Hart the head of LFL Story Group and Stephen Feder VP of Film Development at Lucasfilm left

Do you have a source for this? Prior to TFA the only media Disney had put out was Marvel's ongoing Star Wars comic, Kanan and Darth Vader. At least four novels (TARKIN, HEIR TO THE JEDI, LORDS OF THE SITH and A NEW DAWN) and the Rebels cartoon. With TFA seemingly not contradicting anything established in those it seems weird that they would leave over JJs instance to ignore what was now canon.

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41 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

Seems you are forgetting that early on RotJ had Wookiees not Ewoks as per producer Gary Kurtz in the Revenge of the Sith blu ray commentary. Obviously this is why Hamill speaks of the 'Wookiee fairlytale', because thats what was originally planned but cut due to budget concerns, it isnt as if he made it up out of thin air.


The Ewoks were inspired by Wookiee from early drafts of Star Wars, but Hamil is describing script pages that describe a Wookie family reading about the adventures of Luke as a framing device: that was never a thing.

 

41 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

You can read here that Lucas and Hamill spoke of this 12-film plan back in 1976 during filming of A New Hope. Im not sure why you think this "was never a thing at the time", when 1976 is obviously prior to the Aug 77 interview where Lucas reveals details about the duel on the edge of the volcano. The pictures of this 12 film plan are right there in the link, they were quite indeed a thing at the time. Time magazine also reported in 78 that work would soon begin on the sequel, ESB, and '10 more sequels'. Seems like both the volcano fight and 12 films were planned at the time. In fact, Lucas envisioned 12 films as early as 1975, but probably realized this was unnecessary or that he just didnt want to anymore as began to get burnt out and time went on.


The quotes about the 12-film plan are all from 1978, not from 1976 or 1975. The document appended is also estimated as being from that period, and even here I suspect possible falsification insofar as some of the notes Lucas jotted under the original film (here Episode VI) are reproduction of notes, slightly doctored, from his 1974 notes: “Kane Highsinger/Jedi friend; Leia Aquilae/princess; General Vader/Imperial Commander; Han Solo/friend” and here “Han Solo/Pirate Leia/Princess. Also Darth Vader.” Why would Lucas even need to add to this document a plot synopsis to a movie he just made?

 

41 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

Gary Kurtz also said in 99 that prior to 1980, the plan was for the entire Star Wars timeline to take place over 9 films. episode 6 would have been about Han sacrificing himself to defeat the Death Star 2 and Luke confronting Vader but failing, 7 was about Lukes life as a Jedi, 8 was about Luke finding his long lost sister and 9 was about Luke defeating the Emperor. You can see that this makes up the broad strokes for RotJ. Kurtz only worked for Lucas til 1980 so he would have had to learn about the plan at some point before then. Then, probably during development of RotJ Lucas realized this all worked better as one single film and amalgamated it all into film, leaving us with the 6 movies that got made.


Kaminski and Taylor both show that Kurtz’ memories (and this all taken from interviews of Kurtz from the nineties or later) are just as suspect as Hamil’s or anyone else’s.

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They did use the Wookiee conceit in the 1978 Holiday Special (the family watching the Boba Fett cartoon, among other things), more or less, so it’s not far-fetched that George had that idea at one point. There’s also the whole framing device of the story being from the “Journal of the Whills” which of course survives in the original novelization.

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5 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

it’s not far-fetched that George had that idea at one point. There’s also the whole framing device of the story being from the “Journal of the Whills” which of course survives in the original novelization.


Yeah, but Hamil is describing supposed script drafts that had this as a literal framing device, which (1) had not been found in spite of Rinzler’s exhaustive investigation of the archives and (2) doesn’t read like a Lucas script insofar as Hamil recalls it describing a camera move, which Lucas never does.

 

Memory being suspect seems to me to be the best explanation.

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3 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

I honestly liked the AOTC clips, but feel they could have been put to better use as the opening of each episode, with the lesson reveal where it was (although that was a roll your eyes moment).

I thought most of them had no real point other than to make prequel fanboys wee themselves. And of course it had to be shot on the one set they already used in the first scene of the season.

 

I liked the Vader/Reva duel, creative use of the Force there and a nice show of Vader's clear superiority. Also liked he Obi/Reva scenes even if he just ends up using her as an expendable distraction. But man, the action is mostly still ludicrous, the direction sucks, Volume sets look tiny and cheap, the script is still just copypasted from other episodes and Episodes, glued together by 7 year olds with riveting details like "the tracker turns Leia's droid evil and makes its eye go red! Oh no! What is she gonna do? Oh, she just takes it off. Yaay!" I just can't believe they pull the dumbass tros chewie "there was another shuttle" shit again just to make Vader ZoMg FoRce UnlEaShed LeveL EpIc ZomG sO coOl, but then instantly a dumbass again as he just lets the second one leave instead of pulling that one back too.

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12 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said:

This is offer's a pretty thorough timeline of the star wars story after the fact https://originaltrilogy.com/topic/George-Lucas-Star-Wars-Creator-Unreliable-Narrator-Time-Travelling-Revisionist/id/66986


This is a good one, but I think there’s even more to be made of some these topics. For instance, I think much of Lucas’ early years is kinda souped-up, both in his assertion that he “kind of fell into film” and in making it seem as though he was well on his way to becoming an Anthropology professor but decided to pour his understanding of humanity into cinema instead.

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9 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

Do you have a source for this? Prior to TFA the only media Disney had put out was Marvel's ongoing Star Wars comic, Kanan and Darth Vader. At least four novels (TARKIN, HEIR TO THE JEDI, LORDS OF THE SITH and A NEW DAWN) and the Rebels cartoon. With TFA seemingly not contradicting anything established in those it seems weird that they would leave over JJs instance to ignore what was now canon.

 

It is all conjecture which is why I said 'allegedly' and 'reportedly' but it is from /r/starwarsleaks back when IX came out. If it were true it would seem obvious JJ wanted to take Snoke in a different direction then what the story group had intended. 

Spoiler

a10fe355b370b22236c8895f97769aa8.jpg

Seems like Snoke was meant to just be an ordinary person, then JJ and Chris Terrio came up with the magnificent idea to "somehow Palpatine returned" etc. and have Snoke been a puppet grown by Palpy, ignoring what the story group had been working on in the comics. Someone else in the comments say that in Bloodline (I havnt read it) Leia has never trained to be a jedi ever. But what happens in 9? We see a flashback to Leia training to be a jedi

 

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

The quotes about the 12-film plan are all from 1978, not from 1976 or 1975.

 

The quote I linked you literally is Mark Hamill, talking about the 12 film plan, during principal photography in Tunisia, in 1976!

 

8 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Rinzler’s exhaustive investigation of the archives

You mean "Lucas has occasionally sent me via an assistant miscellaneous handwritten notes from the period 1976-1983 to help in the writing of the making-of books"? Some exhaustive search! Im not surprised he didnt come up with anything, seems like he wasnt provided much at all

 

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Hamil is describing script pages that describe a Wookie family reading about the adventures of Luke as a framing device: that was never a thing.

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

here I suspect falsification insofar as some of the notes Lucas jotted under the original film (here Episode VI) are reproduction of notes from elsewhere.

 

9 hours ago, Chen G. said:

Kaminski and Taylor both show that Kurtz’ memories (and this all taken from interviews of Kurtz from the nineties or later) are just as suspect as Hamil’s or anyone else’s.

 

There isnt really any point in trying to have a conversation with you, because for every piece of evidence I bring up you seem to think they are lying. In that case Hamill, Lucas, Kurtz, the Star Wars website, and anyone else in the know are all lying about it

 

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1 minute ago, Holko said:

I thought most of them had no real point other than to make prequel fanboys wee themselves. And of course it had to be shot on the one set they already used in the first scene of the season.

Oh it was absolutely designed to tug at those heart strings. Overall each segment was meant to break down the different fighting style and philosophy of Obi Wan and Anakin, while showing where they were at mentally in the episode. Having each episode start with a segment from this would have been a great bit of continuity and framing of that episode, with the culmination being the lesson Obi Wan is trying to teach Anakin, your focus on victory blinds you. It being on the same set as the first episode for me isn't that bad, how different is that room from the one in AOTC where Yoda is teaching the younglings or ROTS where the kid says "Master Skywalker there are too many of them, what are we going to do?". It's a cheap way to resuse a set but not unprecedented.

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5 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

Mark Hamill, talking about the 12 film plan, during principal photography in Tunisia, in 1976!


No, it’s Mark Hamil recalling that he spoke to Lucas in 1976 about it.

 

Read Kaminski, for starters. It’s an older book - published before some of Rinzler’s later publications - and at times it’s overreaching with some of its conclusions (especially regarding the sequel trilogy), but it’s still a superb piece of historical research into the development history of these films.

 

I do think I should recall my assessment of the document as being falsified: I think Lucas drafted this document in 1978 to decide on what number episode to give to his sequel.

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

No, it’s Mark Hamil recalling that he spoke to Lucas in 1976 about it.

 

im quite sure Hamill is capable of recalling that the conversation he had with George during filming for A New Hope in Tunisia took place in 1976. Obviously they were not filming for the movie after it had come out in 77

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6 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

 

It is all conjecture which is why I said 'allegedly' and 'reportedly' but it is from /r/starwarsleaks back when IX came out. If it were true it would seem obvious JJ wanted to take Snoke in a different direction then what the story group had intended. 

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Right, I get why you said allegedly and reportedly, that's why I asked for a source, but that reddit link doesn't work for me (says site can't be reached?). What comic are those panels from? Sorry I'm now just realising I've misunderstood and that you're talking about Rise of Skywalker not TFA. But that further proves the story group has failed, their one job was to make sure everything works across all media, sure JJ may have wanted to change Snokes origin but does that contradict what's in the page you've linked to?

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20 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said:

Having each episode start with a segment from this would have been a great bit of continuity and framing of that episode, with the culmination being the lesson Obi Wan is trying to teach Anakin, your focus on victory blinds you.

Okay, this could've been neat, but I'll go further, include scenes from all over their relationship, flesh it out a bit better than Lucas did. As it is right now, what we have is "Wow, how does Obi know Vader is aggressive? Oh, because Anakin was once aggressive in some random training fight they had!"

23 minutes ago, Groovygoth666 said:

It being on the same set as the first episode for me isn't that bad, how different is that room from the one in AOTC where Yoda is teaching the younglings or ROTS where the kid says "Master Skywalker there are too many of them, what are we going to do?". It's a cheap way to resuse a set but not unprecedented.

I dunno, I guess my issue would be more with this being the only room of the Temple we've seen in the series so far in addition to some CG walkways.

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2 minutes ago, Holko said:

As it is right now, what we have is "Wow, how does Obi know Vader is aggressive? Oh, because Anakin was once aggressive in some random training fight they had!"


I thought the way those sequences were intercut worked quite well. It is curious that they staged it at a time since before Anakin lost a hand. Making this a sequence that takes place after the bulk of Attack of the Clones may have been better.

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Sorry about that I fixed the link. Im not sure which issue but the comic is Star Wars Rise of Kylo Ren. The contradiction is that the story group had intended for Snoke to just be a regular guy who emerged from the shadows, so to speak. I recall talk around when Episode 8 came out that the backstory for Snoke was that he had always been around during the events of the previous movies. Then JJ came in for 9 and made it so he was grown in a vat. The story group indeed failed in the sense Snoke's backstory was now contradictory between the comics and 9, but according to the reddit post one of JJ's terms for coming onto 9 was to ignore the story group. So I suppose it was the Disney suits that put the story group in a position where they could be ignored and are ultimately responsible for the story groups failure. That would piss me off if I were them, and I wouldnt be surprised if thats why they jumped ship

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1 minute ago, Holko said:

Okay, this could've been neat, but I'll go further, include scenes from all over their relationship, flesh it out a bit better than Lucas did. As it is right now, what we have is "Wow, how does Obi know Vader is aggressive? Oh, because Anakin was once aggressive in some random training fight they had!"

Absolutely, having flashbacks to during the Clone Wars and fleshing out their relationship, something ROTS is sorely missing, would be a great bit of filling in the blanks. Now the Clone Wars did a fantastic job of showing this, but for people who didn't watch it this show was a chance to help contextualise Obi Wan and Anakin as brothers through flashbacks.

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13 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

The point is that the quote itself is NOT from 1976 - it’s from 2004!

 

If this is what you want to nitpick then where else could the quote be from? According to Hamill he and George had the conversation in Tunisia filming A New Hope in 76. Like I said it couldnt have happened after the film came out because they were filming it. It certainly did not happen during filming for ESB or RotJ because they were not in Tunisia for filming and by RotJ George had already changed his mind about the 12 film plan anyways.

 

I doubt he misremembered the filming for A New Hope in 76 for filming of Phantom Menace in Tunisia because 1. it is 20+ years later, and 2. he wasnt even there! There is literally no other time except 76 Hamill and Lucas could have had the conversation

 

Hamill is not an idiot, im sure he can remember the conversation took place in Tunisia. they probably had conversations about the future of Star Wars several times over the years

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