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OBI-WAN KENOBI - spoilers allowed for all aired episodes


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3 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

Hamill is not an idiot, im sure he can remember the conversation took place in Tunisia. they probably had conversations about the future of Star Wars several times over the years


You don’t need to be an idiot to misremember things, especially nearly 30 years after the fact.

 

Memory is suspect.

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48 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

There isnt really any point in trying to have a conversation with you, because for every piece of evidence I bring up you seem to think they are lying. In that case Hamill, Lucas, Kurtz, the Star Wars website, and anyone else in the know are all lying about it

 


Greenturnedblue nailed it. @Chen G. the reason I called you disingenuous has nothing to do with being affronted by the accusation that Lucas was lying, and everything to do with your continuous insistence that the primary sources of these information are lying. What's worse, is that it seems to always be in a case where it's a source that directly contradicts what you've claimed. It's like talking to a conspiracy theorist who will dismiss evidence they don't like because 'everyone is in on it man', when you get to arbitrarily decide what is and isn't a valid source it makes discussion less about finding out what the truth of the matter is and more about pulling out all the stops to be proven correct. Textbook bad faith/disingenuous/whatever you want to call it engagement

You've written a remarkable amount without really saying anything. I do not care about all these other examples (especially ones from completely different people), I care about it on a case by case basis. Given a piece of evidence, if you want to discredit it by saying the person is lying you need to establish a motive for why on earth they would be lying in the first place, or use another piece of evidence to identify a direct contradiction with what they've claimed. Saying that someone's memory is faulty a year after the moment described and thus they gave an inaccurate account is wild conjecture and is frankly unprovable unless they had some kind of degenerative memory condition at the time. For all you know Mark Hamill has remarkably good memory even to this day, which is why this line of questioning is ridiculous

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The only party I accuse of lying outright is George Lucas, and this is a point other authors have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt: the man is extremely duplicitous.

 

The others I mostly attribute to faulty memory. You can call it what you will, but that’s how a historian works: he assessed the reliability of the sources as he understands it, and my assessment of those quotes of Hamil’s is that he let’s later pieces of information colour his memories of past events. When you hear Lucas talking about a duel in the past, it’s easy to project that unto your memories and say “oh sure, I remember him talking to me about a duel and stuff!”

 

And this is not some point I’m making out of thin air: I’m mostly taking from Kaminski, who’s made these arguments (I think, very compellingly) before me.

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3 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

You don’t need to be an idiot to misremember things, especially nearly 30 years after the fact.

 

Memory is suspect.

I would still like to know when you think Hamill and George could have had the conversation, despite them not being in Tunisia ever again

 

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

The only party I accuse of lying outright is George Lucas, and this is a point other authors have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt: the man is duplicitous.

 

The others I mostly attribute to faulty memory. You can call it what you will, but that’s how a historian works: he assessed the reliability of the sources as he understands it. And I’m mostly taking from Kaminski, who’s made these arguments (I think, very compellingly) before me.


Can you quote Kaminski directly in regards to the question of Vader being a burn victim as a result of a duel then? I can't stress how much I do not care about Lucas lying about other things I want to know if he's lying about this and you can offer NOTHING to the contrary other than conjecture. It's beyond infuriating

You know what I've never heard a historian say?

"We have this account from X about an event that happened a year before but I think they're lying about it?" "Why do you think that?" "I think they don't remember it correctly" "Why?" "Because memory is faulty"

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1 hour ago, Chen G. said:
1 hour ago, Pellaeon said:

it’s not far-fetched that George had that idea at one point. There’s also the whole framing device of the story being from the “Journal of the Whills” which of course survives in the original novelization.


Yeah, but Hamil is describing supposed script drafts that had this as a literal framing device, which had not been found in spite of Rinzler’s exhaustive investigation of the archives

 

Personally I find it more likely that Rinzler called up poor old Lucas asking wHaT aBOuT tHe WookiEe FRamiNG DeVIcE FroM JOurNaL oF ThE WHilLs? then Lucas sighed and poured himself a glass of scotch

 

 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

And yes, arguments Ex Silentio are discredited in pure logic

 

Yet your entire argument falls apart without this construct. I believe the word for that is, hypocritical

 

 

8 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:

"We have this account from X about an event that happened a year before but I think they're lying about it?" "Why do you think that?" "I think they don't remember it correctly" "Why?" "Because memory is faulty"

 

Not only that, everyone else who knows about the matter is also wrong 'because memory is faulty'

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14 minutes ago, DarthDementous said:


Can you quote Kaminski directly in regards to the question of Vader being a burn victim as a result of a duel then? I can't stress how much I do not care about Lucas lying about other things I want to know if he's lying about this and you can offer NOTHING to the contrary other than conjecture.


Although he does put some question into Hamil’s recollections, Kaminski actually thinks the duel did come to Lucas mind, but only during shooting - not in the writing process. I question that: smells like Lucas retrofitting to me.
 

He does, however, seriously question that the duel resulted in Vader scoring wounds that make him require the suit for life-support, which he claims only came into Lucas mind after the fact.

 

It’s all in his book, but there’s also an essay here: http://fd.noneinc.com/secrethistoryofstarwarscom/secrethistoryofstarwars.com/visualdevelopmentofdarthvader.html

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The link you just posted says "However, in the fourth draft, Lucas decided that the character would be more effective if he wore the space suit throughout the length of the film. This act, however, made the suit seem as though it were a permenant encasement of some kind. Lucas had come up with the concept of The Duel by that point--Darth had a duel with his former master, Obi Wan, and falls into a volcano, scarring him so disturbingly that he must hide his features with the mask, much like Doctor Doom".

If the fourth draft was finished 1 January 1976, then the whole idea of the duel was envisioned a whole year and a half before ANH was released in May 77 -- possibly even earlier

 

His 'memory is faulty' as well, I am sure

 

13 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

I question that.

I'm sure you do!

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41 minutes ago, greenturnedblue said:

The link you just posted says "However, in the fourth draft, Lucas decided that the character would be more effective if he wore the space suit throughout the length of the film. This act, however, made the suit seem as though it were a permenant encasement of some kind. Lucas had come up with the concept of The Duel by that point--Darth had a duel with his former master, Obi Wan, and falls into a volcano, scarring him so disturbingly that he must hide his features with the mask, much like Doctor Doom".

If the fourth draft was finished 1 January 1976, then the whole idea of the duel was envisioned a whole year and a half before ANH was released in May 77 -- possibly even earlier

 

His 'memory is faulty' as well, I am sure

 

I'm sure you do!


What an absolute fucking farce, look at what the reference for that claim is:

image.png

Good enough for Kaminski who is one of the few sources Chen will actually trust, yet not good enough for Chen

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And you two don’t care that the idea that Vader’s suit is a life-support is a retcon? The duel, that and only that is the real issue?!


And, like I said, Kaminski does put some question into Hamil’s reliability there: just less than me.

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3 hours ago, greenturnedblue said:

Sorry about that I fixed the link. Im not sure which issue but the comic is Star Wars Rise of Kylo Ren. The contradiction is that the story group had intended for Snoke to just be a regular guy who emerged from the shadows, so to speak. I recall talk around when Episode 8 came out that the backstory for Snoke was that he had always been around during the events of the previous movies. Then JJ came in for 9 and made it so he was grown in a vat. The story group indeed failed in the sense Snoke's backstory was now contradictory between the comics and 9, but according to the reddit post one of JJ's terms for coming onto 9 was to ignore the story group. So I suppose it was the Disney suits that put the story group in a position where they could be ignored and are ultimately responsible for the story groups failure. That would piss me off if I were them, and I wouldnt be surprised if thats why they jumped ship

Thanks for fixing the link, after a quick glance it mentions that these two left after January 2019, but with principal photography for TROS starting August 2018 I'm not sure there's really any link between JJ wanting exemption/no oversight from the story group that would force them both to leave several months after not only the "script" being written, but pre production and filming had begun. So for me it feels tenuous at best. 

 

And you're right I remember there being much talk of Snoke being someone who emerged from the shadows, can even recall having an argument with a friend shortly after TLJ came out about it and insisting Snoke was an original character because of the things Andy Serkis had said. But for the life of me I can't find any of those articles now.

 

And thanks for letting me know which comic that was from, unfortunately Rise of Kylo Ren issue one (which that page is from) released the same day as TROS, with this page turning up in issue four 9-1583966109487.png

 

So that particular comic doesn't contradict the film's. 

 

Seems we agree that the story group has failed, but not in these instances.

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4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

And you two don’t care that the idea that Vader’s suit is a life-support is a retcon? The duel, that and only that is the real issue?!


And, like I said, Kaminski does put some question into Hamil’s reliability there: just less than me.


The only claim I made was that the idea of Vader being scarred as the result of a duel with Obi Wan existed as early as the creation of the first Star Wars, which Kaminski seems to agree with

Before the conversation got very confusing I responded to you saying "The idea of a duel and certainly the idea of Vader being a burn victim were both later additions in and of themselves." with "Directly in the movies yes, but I wouldn't be so sure about those ideas not being in mind during the making of A New Hope." and then I provided a quote from the 1977 Rolling Stones interview as evidence

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A quote from since after the movie was out: Lucas was reimagining much of the film’s backstory in the months following its release.

 

In this particular context, there are two elements: that Vader dueled with Obi Wan before, and that Vader’s suit was a life-support after the battle left him crippled. The point in which the former idea emerged is in dispute, but the latter is very much a retcon.

 

And, really, the main point is to show just how haphazard Star always was (and had remained) in terms of “continuity” and so to try and will Obi-Wan into not contradicting anything is a doomed enterprise.

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10 hours ago, Chen G. said:

And you two don’t care that the idea that Vader’s suit is a life-support is a retcon

Its hardly a retcon if it was included as early as the 4th script, from Jan 76

 

 

9 hours ago, Groovygoth666 said:

that these two left after January 2019, but with principal photography for TROS starting August 2018

Thanks for looking into that. I think the rumour probably started since they left Lucasfilm to work for Rian Johnson's company. Since the real issues with the TROS rewrites started around Sept-Oct 2019, I guess the timeline doesn't add up if that is when the friction between JJ and the story group would have started

 

I do think however that while contradictory may not be the best word it is definitely strange how until TROS snoke was meant to be normal person who had been around the entire time lurking in the shadows until it was the right time to influence Kylo Ren to join him. Then with TROS it was retconned into Palpatine actually having grown snoke in the tanks at exogol. 

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On 18/06/2022 at 4:36 AM, DarthDementous said:

Any contradictions that arose would actually be addressed and 90% of the time resolved in future media or from members of the Lucasfilm Story Group themselves

 

Good continuity means contradictions don't rise in the first place...

 

Obi-Wan is offers no more continuity headscratchers than any other film or TV entry into this franchise.

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On 18/06/2022 at 3:36 AM, DarthDementous said:




Come post the 2013 Disney buy-out and everything is erased except TCW. Theoretically, with this clean slate, continuity should be easier than ever to maintain but the values of the Lucasfilm Story Group shifted significantly and no longer was there the same attention to detail in the pre-Disney expanded universe. However, a bizarre paradox arose where they had the ambition to have everything that was created, be it video game or novel, from now on to be on the same level of canon as the movies. This ultimately proved to be an utter disaster and fell into the MCU trap of alienating the general audience by having events in movies heavily rely on expanded material to understand.

 Which sadly it was the main point of rebooting the EU... that the new movies wouldnt need to rely on decades of written material and alienate audiences who had not read them.

 

So in the end the old EU should have been adapted or trimmed for the Disney era, because in the end they made the very thing they wanted to evade. (worse because aside of alienaing general audiences they also screwed the fans who had been EU followers for a lifetime...)

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2 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Good continuity means contradictions don't rise in the first place...

 

Obi-Wan is offers no more continuity headscratchers than any other film or TV entry into this franchise.


Contradictions are inevitable in such a massive franchise across many different creators, many years, and such a large span of in-universe time, it's the systems you have in place to mitigate them that will determine if you have 'good' or 'bad' continuity. That is the lesson Disney Star Wars has taught us

Again, there's this bizarre trend of using 'evidence' from pretty much everything other than the Kenobi show to make a point about the show. I find it really telling that whenever someone points out an issue, instead of using the actual Kenobi show as the foundation of their point, they have to make some wide assumption about every other piece of Star Wars media in order to try to counter it

Guess what? It's bad there too. Point out a contradiction in any other Star Wars entry and I'll be there to criticize it as well. It's bad there and it's bad in the Kenobi show. Does that make the show as a whole bad? No, it's the sum of its parts, but 'continuity headscratchers' as you put them have the ability to subtract from it. Responding to a contradiction with another contradiction doesn't make the first contradiction go away

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Obi-Wan Kenobi 1x03 Part III

 

Well, though this had the same rough outline of the last episode (going to a new planet, having an adventure, leaving at the end), it didn't feel as satisfying as that episode; It was a bit clunky at times.

 

Obi-Wan seems to be a kind of daft throughout the episode - trusting the truck driver wouldn't betray them, accidentally using Leia's real name, and just in general seemed a bit lost and unsure of himself the entire time.  I did like when Leia realized Obi-wan knew Padme, but that didn't really go anywhere either.


I did think the new Tala character was cool, I can't recall seeing a rebel sympathizer among the Imperial ranks before.  What I am really the least interested in on the whole show however, is the Inquisitors.  The in-fighting between them about who should be in charge, the acting of the guy playing the one with the stupid helmet that was yelling at Reva this episode, and the fact that it's sort of confusing to me where these guys rank and how they do or don't report to Vader or when and what Vader's rank even is and why I should care about any of these guys.  Seems like an unnecessary layer of story that just gets in the way of spending more time with Obi-Wan, Anakin, Leia, and Bail that the show should have focused on.

 

That being said I thought the little lightsaber battle in the sand dunes between Obi-Wan and Vader was pretty cool - effectively staged and shot at least, and I liked that Vader didn't just try to win but wanted to watch Obi-Wan burn.  I thought there'd be more of a meal made of of Obi-Wan finally turning his saber on after using blasters for 2 1/2 episodes but I guess not.


Overall, the show is OK, but halfway through hasn't given me a compelling reason to exist at all.  Let's see what the second half brings

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There really is no reason for this to exist, and I say that as a loving Star Wars apologist.   I enjoy it.   But I should be squealing with delight like I am with Stranger Things and Star Trek Strange New Worlds. 

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This show looks like a cheap fan film, and that's unfair to fan films; one prop on Kenobi is worth more the budget of an entire fan film. The constant use of shaky cam highlights actors in costumes in a way that cheapens everything. It's so off-putting that it brings down every good aspect of the show - and don't get me wrong, there are quite a few! Ewan McGregor and Ingram Moses are great and after a while I even grew to love Leia.

 

The score is so disparate too, half is obviously William Ross working with Williams' theme and the other half (Holt's stuff) is really incongruent with the Williams/Ross material. 

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I wish Star Wars would go back to the cinemas, with TV projects more sparse, and not trying to do movie quality on a budget, because it's barely working.  

 

Obi-Wan is fine, but it's not cinematic, and doesn't feel like a high stakes big budget edge of your seat Star Wars Theater Experience.

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Obi-Wan Kenobi 1x04 Part IV

 

Maybe because you all are so down on this show it set my expectations to the rock bottom.... whatever the reason, I'm actually kind of enjoying it.  This episode did something these Disney Star Wars shows can do that no other show I really watch does, which is essentially be a 35 minute long action/chase scene without much else, and kind of pull it off.

 

One of the best non-action parts was when Obi-Wan finds a bunch of dead/captured/preserved Jedi in a long hallway - that was awesome world-building, something the show had been really poor at doing until now.  I also liked that the base was underwater, made it feel a little different from what we've seen in almost 30 of these live action Star Wars episodes now

 

But the long action/chase/escape series of sequences was all pretty fun. I liked when he was in the hallway and had to use the Force to hold water back after it got cracked, and ended up letting it rush out to flood all the bad guys.  It was predictable, but still pretty cool.  Tala was pretty cool in this episode to, really willing to do anything to help the heroes - I loved her attempt to pretend to be a triple agent when she gets Reva away from the action, pretty clever of her


The final escape bit on the hanger was fun, with Ice Cube Jr's proto-rebel pilots showing up to save the day and everyone reunited safely.

 

I dunno where Vader was this whole time or why he only showed up after all the hubbub was over, but I liked how angry he was at Reva and seemingly would have killed her, if not for her reveal that she planted a tracker.  This is kind dumb though, because now it retcons that a cool trick Vader pulled in the original movie was actually something he learned from a new character other writers invented 45 years later.  Oh well

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11 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said:

Well, George had it planned the whole time.

 

Why of course!

 

You see, how wrote a script and it turned to be a really giant script, about 350 pages, "it was like War and Peace!" and then he divided it into two halves.

 

Then he... divided the second half into six parts and the first half into eight parts, the fifth of which he divded into three and so he took the third plus the two eighths and a sixth and did a square root and... I dunno, I'm not good with math.

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Yeah, George is not best with numbers or literature if he thought 250-300 pages is anything near the size of War and Peace... ROTFLMAO

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9 hours ago, Jay said:

One of the best non-action parts was when Obi-Wan finds a bunch of dead/captured/preserved Jedi in a long hallway - that was awesome world-building, something the show had been really poor at doing until now


How was that world-building, let alone awesome world-building?

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I've never seen any of the cartoon shows, so to reveal to me that the Empire isn't just hunting Jedi down and exterminating them but also taking some and preserving them for display like some demented game hunter was pretty intense, and pretty dark! 

 

If this is something already covered in the lore and this was just a reference to it, I wouldn't know

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This information makes no difference to me!

I'm just watching this show and enjoying what it tells me

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If you want to dig deeper, Rebels reveals one of the things they’re doing with the entombed Jedi corpses.  But I agree with you, Jay!

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47 minutes ago, mstrox said:

If you want to dig deeper, Rebels reveals one of the things they’re doing with the entombed Jedi corpses.  But I agree with you, Jay!

Fucking them?!

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5 hours ago, Jay said:

I've never seen any of the cartoon shows, so to reveal to me that the Empire isn't just hunting Jedi down and exterminating them but also taking some and preserving them for display like some demented game hunter was pretty intense, and pretty dark! 

 

If this is something already covered in the lore and this was just a reference to it, I wouldn't know


I see, so it's the added characterization of the Inquisitors as big game hunters by keeping a trophy of their kills. I could go into why that's a very odd addition given previous portrayals of the Inquisitors, but to keep it self-contained I'll just say it doesn't really make sense from a big game hunter perspective. Usually the point of trophies is to display them, not keep them in this dark super-secret basement, and also they're usually selective to demonstrate the skill of the hunter. The ones in the episode were very arbitrarily placed (you've got a literal council member placed with what look to be Jedi Knights and Padawans), and no one would consider killing a Jedi youngling an impressive feat at all

If the point in the episode was to drive home how twisted the Inquisitors are (who the hell would proudly display a dead child?!) then I'd say that does work against the sympathetic angle they're going for with Reva. Also, I'd say there was an attempt to characterize the Grand Inquisitor and the Fifth Brother as more practical and in control contrasted with Reva's recklessness, and this weird room of preserved trophies doesn't really square with the Inquisitors generally being practical and focused

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I am discussing the finale. So beware for spoilers.

 

Soooo. The episode way okay. It's fine, not really the epic showdown I thought.

Some moments were cool, but overall their first duel on Mustafar still is the best.

 

My favourite parts of the episode were the final 10 minutes. With all the callbacks to the OT & PT. That was very nice. It did show how the series could've been.

 

Ewan McGregor, Hayden Christensen and Moses Ingram were all very good.

But the script kinda lets them all down.

 

 

The score was good. The most orchestral of the entire show.

 

A choir was added for the duel but no hints of Battle Of The Heroes

 

At last a statement of the Imperial March. It was great to hear, but the statement just lacked a little power. It was good, but the brass could've been louder.

 

And a really beautiful statement of Leia's theme. That one gave me goosebumps. Beautiful.

The Force theme after that was also really great to hear.

 

But no hints of The Emperor's theme or Qui-Gon's theme for their cameos.

It was great seeing Liam Neeson again. It made me smile big time!

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