Jar Jar 28 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Hi Guys, I am currently listening to this album and enjoying it a lot. There are some real gems which are not on the OST. I have not finished yet (only CD1 for the moment) but I was wondering why this album as such a bad reputation on the forum ? There should be lot of edits as it follows the movie but spotted only one annoying one (on Anakin vs Sebulba, there is a change in tonality and rythm which is really bad). Otherwise, it seems to flow well musically. Thanks Gruesome Son of a Bitch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Thor 7,492 Posted August 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2019 I had this for all but half a year back in the early 2000s before I sold it. I've always had trouble understanding why people who generally like expanded/C&C releases, don't care for this. From what I've gleaned, it seems to be something with the fact that it doesn't contain the recording sessions tracks as they are, but that these tracks have been socalled 'micro-edited' in line with the film? I think I understand the difference between the two, but at the same time -- you who want ALL the music from a film, in the film's order, isn't this the best possible presentation, sticking as closely to the music of the film as possible? Demodex, aj_vader, Brundlefly and 5 others 2 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Holko 9,516 Posted August 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2019 Just wait until you get to the finale with all the DotF concert piece bits replacing all actual other, better, intended recordings of it. Thor, why the hell do you feel the need to stick your nose into matters you know and say you have no idea about and will never actually care about? Trent B, Remco, Taikomochi and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyncMan 314 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 This album is basically a high-quality rip of the music-track that was used in the finished film. A very lazy presentation from both Lucasfilm and Sony. Too bad Mike Matessino wasn't involved on this. He would have presented each music cue the way Williams had written and recorded it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 21 minutes ago, Thor said: I had this for all but half a year back in the early 2000s before I sold it. I've always had trouble understanding why people who generally like expanded/C&C releases, don't care for this. From what I've gleaned, it seems to be something with the fact that it doesn't contain the recording sessions tracks as they are, but that these tracks have been socalled 'micro-edited' in line with the film? I think I understand the difference between the two, but at the same time -- you who want ALL the music from a film, in the film's order, isn't this the best possible presentation, sticking as closely to the music of the film as possible? But wasn't the bigger problem that it didn't even conform to what you hear in the movie sometimes? As I understood it, it's an edit of the isolated score, not the actual isolated score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrScratch 294 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 It's not an ideal release by any means but overall still enjoyable at the time for all the great music that was left off of the OST. I still have my copy of it. 1977 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 The puzzling part is someone took the time to edit everything. I’m not sure if they edited the isolated score or attempted to edit an isolated score using the sessions. I’m going with the latter since The Tide Turns has a small segment not heard in the film... among other examples. Even though the TPM: EU is a hacked up mess, at least the sound quality/mixing is excellent... at least to me ears. Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That_Bloke 115 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 One of the problems was the way it was marketed and promoted, which created false expectations in the buyers. I think if Sony had sold it as nothing more than "the score as heard in the film" there would have been less outrage. But the wording and marketing implied we'd also get unreleased stuff like music for the film before it was re-edited. There was good stuff left on the editing floor and we knew about it, and thought we'd be getting it based on marketing. I don't mind the 2CD release - once I accepted it for what it is and not for what it was marketed to be. Ricard and rpvee 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holko 9,516 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 It's still one of the most baffling concepts for a release of a score that was kind of heavily edited in the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Manakin Skywalker 4,891 Posted August 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2019 Most of us hate it because we're completionists. This album only contains basically an isolated score of the film, therefore there is a TON of missing music (unused material, alternate takes, etc.) It was a rather lazy release by Sony basically to get people to stop making fan-made bootlegs, which obviously had the exact opposite effect. I mean, it's a great resource for if you're trying to make your own edit, but as a standalone it's a disappointing release. Another issue I forgot about is that it was advertised as containing "every note composed for the film", which is obviously an outright lie. ZenLogic101, crumbs, rpvee and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 The most obvious problem, as I see it, is that cues are abruptly cut and / or split up. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Holko 9,516 Posted August 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2019 The most obvious problem is Williams' original intentions are vastly superior to what whoever hacked up after George realised his movie sucked and scrambled to try and whip it into something. ocelot, crumbs, Remco and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 I assume Ken Wannberg did the best he could in the given situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,492 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 1 hour ago, bollemanneke said: But wasn't the bigger problem that it didn't even conform to what you hear in the movie sometimes? As I understood it, it's an edit of the isolated score, not the actual isolated score. That makes sense. As a continuation of that -- am I right to assume that if a score was released on album basically as a straight copy of the isolated score, this would not please you fans of expanded/C&C releases? Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Nothing can please these guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,492 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 No, there's probably some logic to it. I'm just struggling to understand the mechanics of it all, especially in relation to this particular release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 It should have everything recorded, including alternates and source music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Holko 9,516 Posted August 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2019 Movies get edited after the score gets recorded, the composer's original intentions get altered (out of their control) in ways that very often don't make for great standalone listening. Sometimes cues have bits snipped out of them, sometimes pieces the composer liked get replaced with completely different bits of score intended for other scenes for a multitude of reasons. It's really not that hard to grasp. If the composer's final intentions (plus alternates), which are often better even from a musical and "listening experience" standpoint than the edited music track in the film, are the default version to be released, all these postproduction hackjobs can be reproduced from them if one so desires, but unreleased material the composer absolutely intended to be part of the structure and texture but ended up binned won't magically materialise from the ether. Ricard, Deacon Blues, crumbs and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, Thor said: That makes sense. As a continuation of that -- am I right to assume that if a score was released on album basically as a straight copy of the isolated score, this would not please you fans of expanded/C&C releases? Well, I for one wouldn't be pleased with isolated score releases because they would include the occasionally bad movie edits. I'm not necessarily interested in alternates, but every cue heard in the movie in its complete form should at least be on it in the correct order. Not in a very raw form that doesn't make for nice listening, but the original natrative has to be complete and free of edits, unless those edits include pasting cues together because they were meant to be listened to like that. Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Thor 7,492 Posted August 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, Jurassic Shark said: It should have everything recorded, including alternates and source music. Except it isn't so easy, not to me anyway. Here's how I understand it (and please do correct me if this is wrong). Fans of expanded/C&C releases use the film as a 'guide' for their soundtrack enjoyment. That's why they want all of the music from the film, and in the film's order. But there are apparently differences here. GOOD: Every cue, as it was recorded during the recording sessions, in sequence. BAD (as in THE ULTIMATE EDITION release): Almost every cue, but with micro-edits within the 'recording session' cues to account for the film's editing -- even though this presentation uses the film even more as a guide than a standard expanded release. Is this in the ballpark? Fabulin, ocelot and bollemanneke 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Yes. If you'd like to hear why the score as heard in the film should never be released separately, listen to the Titanic leak. Extreme example, but it will tell you everything you need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,492 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 I'll take your word for it! bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obi 404 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 3 hours ago, Jar Jar said: Hi Guys, I am currently listening to this album and enjoying it a lot. There are some real gems which are not on the OST. I have not finished yet (only CD1 for the moment) but I was wondering why this album as such a bad reputation on the forum ? There should be lot of edits as it follows the movie but spotted only one annoying one (on Anakin vs Sebulba, there is a change in tonality and rythm which is really bad). Otherwise, it seems to flow well musically. Thanks Because the myst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,912 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Thor said: Except it isn't so easy, not to me anyway. Here's how I understand it (and please do correct me if this is wrong). Fans of expanded/C&C releases use the film as a 'guide' for their soundtrack enjoyment. That's why they want all of the music from the film, and in the film's order. But there are apparently differences here. GOOD: Every cue, as it was recorded during the recording sessions, in sequence. BAD (as in THE ULTIMATE EDITION release): Almost every cue, but with micro-edits within the 'recording session' cues to account for the film's editing -- even though this presentation uses the film even more as a guide than a standard expanded release. Is this in the ballpark? GREAT: Every cue in pristine remastered audio quality as intended (this might differ from how it was composed or recorded because this would take into account a reconstruction using best sources. For example, a scene might use bars 1 to 10 of an early version of a cue, edit to a revision for bar 11, edit back to take 8 for bar 12 to 20, type of thing. If you used the original version of the cue, it wouldn't match what's in the film and what's in the film can and does have very jarring score editing so these issues would be fixed). This is what Mike Matessino does THEN include alternates not previously heard for a full authoritative best presentation of a classic score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTrumpet 638 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 I appreciate having the extra music, and would rather have that than nothing. I know that attitude might undermine getting a full recording sessions release in the future, but it's how I feel. ins and 1977 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post crumbs 14,306 Posted August 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2019 Surely everything that needs to be said about this abomination of a release has been said over the last two decades? It's an insult to the work of John Williams and an insult to anyone who reveres his attention to detail when it comes to the presentation of his music. Whatever clueless executive at Sony signed off on it should be run out of Hollywood by a herd of stampeding elephants strapped with copies of the AOTC UE, or at least have some embarrassing private emails leaked into the public domain via a mass hacking operation by North Korean spies. MikeH, bollemanneke, Holko and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 I didn't know you're North Korean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crumbs 14,306 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Spoken like a true enemy of the Supreme Leader. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rough cut 1,714 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 My biggest gripe with this release is no clean intros/outros. Might be small, but there it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 It's a great set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 43 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said: It's a great set. You gruesome son of a bitch. bollemanneke 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,492 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 1 hour ago, karelm said: For example, a scene might use bars 1 to 10 of an early version of a cue, edit to a revision for bar 11, edit back to take 8 for bar 12 to 20, type of thing. Ok, so that is what you don't want, i.e. what's on the TPM set? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1977 1,743 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 My biggest gripe is that we never got UEs of AotC and RotS. As flawed as this UE may be, at least we got a good chunk of music unavailable on the OST. Who knows how long we will have to wait for expanded releases of the prequels. This year marking the 20th anniversary of TPM seemed to be the ideal opportunity, yet we got nothing. Perhaps after TRoS? Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TownerFan 4,983 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Thor, the answer is simpler than you can imagine. The film (especially the last two reels) was extensively re-edited and altered after Williams recorded the score, hence the music had to be conformed and re-edited accordingly by music editors and dubbing mixers. The Ultimate Edition presents the score exactly as heard in the final film, with many sour and sometimes unmusical edits. The usual “c&c” presentation that specialty labels and soundtrack fans likes usually tends to preserve the score as the composer originally intended and recorded, avoiding replicating film edits made in post-production (like the Ultimate Edition did). MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Holko 9,516 Posted August 27, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2019 20 minutes ago, Thor said: Ok, so that is what you don't want, i.e. what's on the TPM set? OK, quick rundown: (made up numbers to illustrate the point) 1. Williams writes cues 11M5, 11M6, 11M7, 11M8 to all flow into each other well (this is how they are named, Reel 11, cue 5-8 for example) 2. Williams revises and rerecords 11M5 to have a few different bars to change a motif, but they all still flow together the same way 3. Williams finishes work 4. Edit changes, Lucas changes his mind, Williams is not available anymore 5. What ends up in the film is 11M5R, 5M3, XM1, 11M8 11M5R is the revised piece from step 2, the original piece which may be very interesting gets discarded 5M3, a shorter cue from earlier in the score and intended for a different context, replaces the longer 11M6 which is discarded XM1, a concert piece based on material found in 11M7 replaces 11M7 which is discarded, tempo no longer flows as well as in Step 2 and let's say 3 bars are removed from 11M8 in a very unmusical way to fit the shortened picture. Williams' first idea is step 1, his final revised vision is step 2, the film version is step 5. What is on the TPM UE is step 5, which has little to do with what the composer of the music intended (and doesn't include his intended cues to allow the listener to recreate Step 2 themselves), flows much worse outside of the picture, and therefore has no place on a musical release in a normal case. Usually what modern expansion producers do is assemble the program as outlined in Step 2 (composer's complete final vision, with rare exceptions like Empire of the Sun or Alien, judged on a case-by-case, cue-by-cue basis) and include some original cues (like 11M5 from Step 1 before it was revised in Step 2) as curiosities. 5M3 is only present in its intended place earlier in the score, XM1, the concert arrangement, is usually after the bulk of the score, and the removed 3 bars from 11M8 are not removed. Giftheck, Smaug The Iron, Pellaeon and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karelm 2,912 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 2 hours ago, Thor said: Ok, so that is what you don't want, i.e. what's on the TPM set? That 2 CD set, I forget what it was called? Ultimate or something. That is why it is called lazy, it is a film output without care to the music quality or listening experience. I can also see why it would leave Sony execs baffled because they are saying it is literally what is in the movie. What goes in to a movie is not a great listening experience on its own though it might be a great cinematic experience. The music when isolated is full of micro-edits, bad edits that are covered up with audio/foley/sound effects, imperfect transitions that go unnoticed in a theater but are glaring in isolation. For example, in the film dub when all the various sound elements are put together in post production, the director might find the dialog too muffled and ask the score level to be dropped to allow the dialog to be better heard (the dialog might already be as loud as it can be). In the film, you'll not notice this adjustment in score level. In an isolated score you will suddenly hear the score level drop and generally inconsistent listening experience. In the ultimate (or whatever it was called) release, you'll hear that drop. That is freaking lazy! But the execs are right, that was what was in the film. EDIT: Here is a specific example of what I'm talking about. Take a look at this scene. At 1:00 in, when Morpheus says "he's the one" his acting is very good but the line is delivered quietly. The music is swelling and there is a significant drop in the score of maybe 10+ db to allow his dialog space to be heard. It's like smashing the breaks as the musical momentum builds. You can't really detect it because of all the other theatrical elements happening in the cinematic experience but if the score were isolated, it would be a jarring experience. So if this was a multi-generational prized franchise with glorious music and each and every release savored and it were treated this poorly, you'd hear all sorts of fury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 It's all you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurassic Shark 12,054 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 But that's not Star Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 It's Star Trek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 So sit back, get comfortable, and prepare to surrender to the ultimate Star Wars: Episode I soundtrack experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 The OST is better though. Ricard would agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Two selfless martyrs. Jesus Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pellaeon 593 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 33 minutes ago, Thekthithm said: The OST is better though. Ricard would agree. I just listen to the concert suite. Am I missing anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,492 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 OK, thanks for all the detailed information, guys. I think I'm getting a hang of it now. Sort of. Briefly put: For C&C enthusiasts, it's important that the film is used as a guide for the soundtrack experience, meaning that one must have all the music and in the film's order. But presenting post-production tweaks and edits is taking the film guide idea a 'bridge too far'. Now I'll just have to remember all this untill the next time this album is brought up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bollemanneke 3,342 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 2 hours ago, JTWfan77 said: My biggest gripe is that we never got UEs of AotC and RotS. As flawed as this UE may be, at least we got a good chunk of music unavailable on the OST. Who knows how long we will have to wait for expanded releases of the prequels. This year marking the 20th anniversary of TPM seemed to be the ideal opportunity, yet we got nothing. Perhaps after TRoS? Who knows. Why so negative? We're only August. You don't honestly think they'll let TROS AND the TPM anniversary pass without anything spectacular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverTrumpet 638 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 1 hour ago, bollemanneke said: Why so negative? We're only August. You don't honestly think they'll let TROS AND the TPM anniversary pass without anything spectacular? They did very little to mark the 20th anniversary of the prequel trilogy? An article on starwars.com? A panel on the dead day of their convention with like two guests. A little different than what we got for the original trilogy. 1977 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 If they’d done something big you’d all post some cynical stuff about Disney squeezing more money out of the franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 10 hours ago, Thor said: I had this for all but half a year back in the early 2000s before I sold it. I've always had trouble understanding why people who generally like expanded/C&C releases, don't care for this. From what I've gleaned, it seems to be something with the fact that it doesn't contain the recording sessions tracks as they are, but that these tracks have been socalled 'micro-edited' in line with the film? I think I understand the difference between the two, but at the same time -- you who want ALL the music from a film, in the film's order, isn't this the best possible presentation, sticking as closely to the music of the film as possible? This is so refreshing! Please tell us more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,492 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 There is nothing to tell. I got the answers I was looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojo 2,453 Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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