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Joker (Hildur Guðnadóttir)


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16 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

 

 

No!

But, from what I read, there is reference to Bruce Wayne.

 

If all goes on schedule, I will see the movie tommorow night.

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Joaquin Phoenix pitched to Todd Phillips a very cool (albeit wrong for this movie) idea for a post credits scene:

 

Quote

"The idea of a post-credits scene in this movie would seem wrong, and a little too light for me," the filmmaker explained. "That wouldn't have been something we did. But Joaquin [Phoenix] said it would be funny to put bloopers alongside the names like they did in the old days."

 

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/joker/joker-star-joaquin-phoenix-pitched-a-very-unique-idea-to-todd-phillips-for-some-post-credits-scenes-a170988

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13 hours ago, Dixon Hill said:

I think it's something like Gooth-Nah-Dotter.

Close enough, but the spellchecker is messing things up for you.

Also, you need to accent all 7 syllables.

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I've been watching a lot of interviews conducted by Dick Cavett for his show and noticed how it totally outclassed today's bite-sized shows. I think Stephen Colbert is one of the only modern talk-show hosts I think does a good job, even if they try and speed things along like they have better things to do.

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They don't get political enough *JWFanners gasp in shock*

Seriously, they hardly have time to talk about anything meaningful. Cavett could have interesting, insightful, provocative interviews and allow the guest to engage in conversation. Nowadays it's:

'Here's our next guest everybody, so you're in this new film? Let's take a look at a clip! Ok, that was so and so, goodnight everybody!

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I saw the movie two nights ago.  Something about the story:

 

Spoiler

Arthur Fleck is a comedian suffering from a mental impairment that causes him to laugh unexpectedly.  

While on a train, some drunk businessmen of Wayne Enterprises beat him up.  Arthur kills all three, but only to defend himself. (maybe not with the last man)

Later in the film, Arthur appears on Murray Franklin's comedy show, but asks "could you introduce me as Joker".

At the show, Joker (Arthur) tells of how he killed the men of Wayne Enterprises and speaks against society, which was neglecting, even trashing him because of his mental health and social position.  So, there is some social/political commentary in this film too.

Joker joins a band of protesters painting themselves as clowns.  One man kills Thomas and Martha Wayne.  Bruce Wayne survives.

 

Other notable parts of the plot.

Arthur kills his mother at one point for lying to him about he being related to the Wayne family.

The movie makes it appear that Arthur is in love with a woman named Sophie, but later on, it is revealed that it was Arthur's delusions.  Schizophrenia?

This was just a very small portion of the movie's plot.

 

My remarks:

Joaquin Phoenix plays the character well.  A very believable performance.

The plot is ok.  I wouldn't have ever thought that Joker's history would be a failed comedian.  Still, the plot fits well into the movie, and the characters fit well with the plot.  The plot doesn't move too slowly, but sometimes it does move a little fast.  It was great that the Wayne family appears in the movie.  It wouldn't be a Joker movie without the Wayne family.

 

Who's better? Phoenix or Ledgers?

It really depends on what you want in a character like the Joker.  

Phoenix is a lighter version of the Joker, flamboyant at times.  Ledgers is the dark and disturbing Joker, a perfect villain for the dark Batman in the Dark Knight.

I like Ledger's performance better because it was even more believable than Phoenix's is.  And, I prefer the Joker as the dark and psychotic villain.

Comic book fans would probably disagree with me.  It is true, Phoenix's Joker is more similar to the Joker of the DC comic books and the Batman TV series.

So, the question of who's better really depends on your preference.  

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I'm truly convinced that Phoenix could become the best Joker. Nicholson's version is great as the more theatrical villain, though and what I find interesting about the appearances of the character in all the films, is that he's kind of a one and done deal. Like they all have one shot with the character.

 

 

p.s. Not counting Jared Leto's version. He's more Jim Carrey's The Mask than The Joker.

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3 hours ago, Ii2 said:
Spoiler

 

Arthur kills his mother at one point for lying to him about he being related to the Wayne family.


 

 

 

Spoiler

I don't think he kills his mother because she lied about him being related to the Waynes. I guesses he does that because he finds out his mother have allowed her husband to abuse him when he was a child. So, in a way, she is just as bad as everyone else that keeps making Arthur's life a hell.

 

Also, here's something I actually liked about the movie:

 

Spoiler

Its final scene. Many have interpreted that the ending left ambiguous that if the events we just saw actually happened, or if the movie's plot, or at least part of it, is just Arthur's imagination. He may very well just have imagined some of that, as some sort of sick joke he actually finds very funny. This is like the comics: on The Killing Joke, which also told the Joker's story, he declares that every time he remembers his origins differently, and that he prefers to have multiple choice for his past.

 

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19 hours ago, Edmilson said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Spoiler

This and the way his mother just left out details of his childhood in general.  Atrthur is trying to make himself look like a good man, a person fit for society despite his mental condition.  When he confronts the Wayne family with his claim that he was related as an illegitimate child, Thomas Wayne calls his mother a delusional person and no doubt implies that Arthur himself is delusional.  This is another punch in the gut that Arthur gets from society.  And this happens publicly.

So, the character has many reasons to kill his mother, but chiefly because she hid so much of his childhood, dirty details of his childhood, away from him, making her just like the others.

 

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What I find interesting about the film is that it sits firmly on the side of grounded/realism/gritty aesthetic which the Nolan Batman films carefully walked the line - between realism and comic book fantasy. Something like Suicide Squad had tripped and fallen over that line and was just ridiculous because there was a clash between the gritty DC tone and the fantastical elements of the characters. On that note, I think the immersive qualities are quickly broken when multiple heroes feature in one story, where MCU can get away with that because of the lighter tone.

 

If DC want to continue with this Joker, I think they should tread very lightly and not jump the gun on some deal where the wacky comic book fantasy side of Batman and DC comics is allowed to take over. The thing is, if they introduce this Joker into a Batman film then it is immediately in competition with what has come before - with Ledger's Joker in Nolan's films. 

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11 minutes ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Joaquin's Joker at least smokes. I remember seeing him smoking in early photos and thinking they were just candids in between takes, but nope. Every single scene.

 

Cool villains smoke!

6 minutes ago, Arpy said:

I didn't mind the smoking, I've been around people who can't live without them so it seemed normal to me.

 

Ooohhh...you know my mum?

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Geez...

 

This movie has earned about US$ 55 millions on its second weekend on American box office, which makes it the third biggest second weekend for a R-Rated movie, behind only the first It and American Sniper (yeah, all of them released by WB, lol). It also fell just 43% from its last weekend, one of the smaller second-weekend drops for a comic book movie of all time - better than, for example, very leggy* movies like Wonder Woman and Black Panther.

 

What does it mean? That the word of mouth have been amazing, and that all the talk and controversiees surrounding that film is actually putting butts in the seats.

 

And this is a monster worldwide too, with US$ 544m so far. It's already WB's biggest movie of 2019 and the 11th R-Rated movie of all time on global box office, behind only Deadpool 2, Deadpool, The Matrix Reloaded, It, Logan, The Passion of the Christ, The Hangover Part 2 (also directed by Todd Phillips), Fifty Shades of Grey, Ted and American Sniper. It'll probably end its career with about US$ 700m (just like the two Deadpool films, Reloaded and It), and, if it gets to play in China, most likely be the first R-Rated movie to earn more than US$ 800m.

 

Considering its budget was just US$ 60m, this will be insanely lucrative for WB and DC.

 

*For those not well versed in box office terminology, a leggy movie is a movie that doesn't suffer enourmous drops on its weekends after the opening, and, instead, have just smaller drops and longer careers. For example, Wonder Woman was an extremely leggy movie on american BO: it opened with just US$ 103m and ended its career with US$ 413m, a bigger final box office than Iron Man 3 and Captain America Civil War, which had much bigger opening weekends. Therefore, when a movie is leggy, is because he has an amazing word of mouth.

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I saw this earlier today. I posted my thoughts about it in the other thread, but I didn't like it. Not for the violence, but Todd Phillips and his co-writer miss the point by painting Phoenix's Fleck as mentally ill. The movie also pegs mentally ill people as nutcases, stalkers, and violent criminals. There's no nuance... and it doesn't sit well with me. Providing a character like Joker with a backstory strips away a lot of the menace and mystique.

 

Phoenix's performance was excellent throughout, as was the cinematography. That tai chi thing, though, didn't work. 

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31 minutes ago, Matt C said:

Phoenix's performance was excellent throughout, as was the cinematography. That tai chi thing, though, didn't work. 

His dancing felt to me as if it was his coping mechanism to deal with the disturbing acts he commits. It also mirrors De Niro's character's entrance in Arthur's dream, where Arthur sees that persona as one of control and admiration. It was such a stunning moment in the film where he transforms from horrific murderer one second to then perform this calm, melancholic and eerily precise dance in a dingy bathroom. That spoke to me as being a great way to characterise the Joker in this film, showing this immensely disturbed person compartmentalising his trauma and was quirky enough to be something that any of the Joker incarnations might've done. 

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Is it just me or anybody else also can't imagine this Arthur Fleck creating evil machinations, planning bank robberies, outsmarting Batman, etc? Judging by this movie, he doesn't appear to be the criminal mastermind that will terrify Gotham with his schemes over the next years.

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2 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Is it just me or anybody else also can't imagine this Arthur Fleck creating evil machinations, planning bank robberies, outsmarting Batman, etc? Judging by this movie, he doesn't appear to be the criminal mastermind that will terrify Gotham with his schemes over the next years.

It seems as if this film doesn't go quite that far to suggest he could be that mastermind by the end, but if they make a followup, I think he's certainly capable of becoming that.

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I have a hard time believing the Joker starting out as a regular guy who goes mad. He's better as an already eccentric gangster like Jack Joker. And I like the theory that Heath Joker is ex-military who somehow deleted any of his official identification (probably the same software Catwoman was after in TDKR?)

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He didn't just 'go mad', Fleck has been mentally and physically abused since childhood and the events of this film seem to be the catalyst that sets him off to confirm (or give credence to) that mental illness. 

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