Michael Giacchino's THE BATMAN (2022)

[bruce marshall 1,315]

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

So, any noticeable unreleased music? 

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

15 minutes ago, Luke Skywalker said:

So, any noticeable unreleased music? 

There is quiet of lot of music not on the album.
I think that it's about an hour worth of music

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

So the film is scored wall to wall in the end. damn. unless there is a sessions leak i dont suppose we'll have that music officially released anytime soon...

 

oh, maybe the FYC...

[HunterTech 987]

I wouldn't quite say wall to wall. More like I'm assuming Gia did the usual thing with his albums where he pretty much left out quite a bit of the connective tissue.

 

I got back from the movie hours ago (I liked it a lot btw), and I honestly didn't have much issues with the score. Despite how stagnant all the themes were, they were used well enough with barely the amount of variance to prevent it from feeling truly repetitive. Of course, it might be a different story on the OST, given the amount of complaints regarding just how unengaging much of it is. I usually don't retain the music after a first watch, but it made enough of impression that I'd be curious to listen to it on its own still.

 

Regarding the infamous 4 note theme, my issues about it feeling purely like a build up remains. A good usage doesn't stop me from thinking it needed a good counterpoint. My mind keeps going for Williams Dracula for whatever reason (it's a bat thing I guess), but something like what used to be a Batman theme in BvS (that ended up turning into part of the WW theme) would've complimented it very nicely.

 

Also, a bit of an odd deep cut, but the hopeful theme sure reminded me of this piece:

 

 

I'm sure a certain Candian YouTuber will scream in agony if he ever watches the movie.

 

Anyway, the real important takeaway is that Giacchino managed to throw a Goldenthal wail in there, so I'm awarding it high marks based on that alone!

[badbu 123]

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

So, any noticeable unreleased music? 

a lot but nothing i want  the best cues are on the album in my opinion 

[Archive Collection 214]

I wasn't overly impressed by the score when I listened to it on the album. But now having seen the film, I think it works very effectively throughout it - and my opinion of the score has improved slightly

 

On the similarities between Giacchino's Batman Theme and Williams' Imperial March - yes, there clearly is a similarity. But at the same time, Williams doesn't hold an exclusive monopoly on the harmonic relationship between those two chords (which is what both motifs are built around). Plenty of other composers have written music with the same harmonic progression - and Giacchino's presentation/orchestration of that material is clearly different from Williams' march.

 

I'm sure Giacchino's scoring approach for all his films has been influenced by Williams - he has said so himself. So I can hardly criticise his music for reflecting the music that inspired him - the same way that Williams' music reflects the romantic music & early 20th century film music that influenced him as a composer.

 

I will concede that the Sonata wasn't too amazing, but I can easily skip it so I'm not going to hold it against Giacchino.

[bored 306]

Here's the thing about music working "really well" in a film. Literally any music can work really well in a film. BvS, the music works fine. Is it a good Zimmer score to me? Not even slightly. There are movies with no music at all that work really well without it. Does that mean those films have good scores? No. There are films where all of the music is someone else's work such as most Tarantino films, and 2001: A Space Odyssey, and it works pretty well. Do these films have good scores? No. 

 

My point is, a score working in film means practically nothing. It's incredibly difficult for any composer with a hint of skill, to create music that is completely unfitting for a movie, in the context of said film. It's not a mark of quality, it's the bare minimum.

 

If you genuinely like Giacchino's score to this, that's fine, I can understand that. I've grown to like his work on No Way Home more than I ever thought I would. I also like Batman Begins' score even though it's minimalist and much maligned in this community. However, I think it's a cop out to say "well I didn't like it at all in the OST, but it works great in the film!" I'll even accept that you like the score more after hearing it in film, as that's happened to me before too.

 

I just personally think it's a mistake to act like the score is somehow objectively a better product in-film. It's like saying AMVs on YouTube putting songs over movies or TV shows make the song that's used objectively better just because it fits with the clips they chose. 

[Damien F 1,742]

I've listened to the OST a few times now and I think it is fine as a background listen while doing other tasks but it would struggle to keep my interest as a standalone listen. Therefore, I suspect the score works much better in the film than on the album. His main Batman theme, while something of an earworm, feels like it should be the opening ostinato underneath a better and more complex theme.  Highway to the Anger Zone is a fun track though and is definitely one I'll revisit a lot more than the overall album. 

[Taikomochi 1,136]

9 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

every single star wars film does this right?

Ok, recent blockbusters that don’t have the greatest musical legacy and film composer of all time then. 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

Here we go.....😒

 

Yes, just about any music will work well with a film if you play it safe.

But, if a composer takes a chance and does something different, it raises the level of the film.

And, it might still not be a great listen.

Is POTA a great listen?

PSYCHO?

DUNKIRK?

GRAVITY?

 

whatever you answer, there will be as many folks who think just the opposite.

We can agree that a score that works great in the film AND apart, is the ultimate accomplishment.

But..... and it's a big but,

so much is dependent on the director I.e. the filmmakers.

It's a collaborative process.

This concept tends to get overlooked on this sight.

[bored 306]

10 minutes ago, bruce marshall said:

But..... and it's a big but,

so much is dependent on the director I.e. the filmmakers.

It's a collaborative process.

This concept tends to get overlooked on this sight.

 

I agree, doesn't mean I think that this excuses a score for playing it safe. Many composers can, and do encourage directors to allow them to innovate more.

 

The Batman doesn't really feel like it was trying to push the envelope to me. It feels similar to how many describe No Way Home's score. Corporate thinking. Some people like Batman 89', some like BvS, some prefer The Dark Knight Trilogy, so let's combine elements of all of these to make as much money as possible! 

[Taikomochi 1,136]

I think that’s kind of true of the film as well. It’s not really trying to do anything groundbreaking with Batman. I don’t necessarily think it’s a bad thing. Some things can be about themselves. 

[Mephariel 451]

3 hours ago, superultramegaa said:

Here's the thing about music working "really well" in a film. Literally any music can work really well in a film. BvS, the music works fine. Is it a good Zimmer score to me? Not even slightly. There are movies with no music at all that work really well without it. Does that mean those films have good scores? No. There are films where all of the music is someone else's work such as most Tarantino films, and 2001: A Space Odyssey, and it works pretty well. Do these films have good scores? No. 

 

My point is, a score working in film means practically nothing. It's incredibly difficult for any composer with a hint of skill, to create music that is completely unfitting for a movie, in the context of said film. It's not a mark of quality, it's the bare minimum.

 

If you genuinely like Giacchino's score to this, that's fine, I can understand that. I've grown to like his work on No Way Home more than I ever thought I would. I also like Batman Begins' score even though it's minimalist and much maligned in this community. However, I think it's a cop out to say "well I didn't like it at all in the OST, but it works great in the film!" I'll even accept that you like the score more after hearing it in film, as that's happened to me before too.

 

I just personally think it's a mistake to act like the score is somehow objectively a better product in-film. It's like saying AMVs on YouTube putting songs over movies or TV shows make the song that's used objectively better just because it fits with the clips they chose. 

 

I fundamentally disagree with this. The key question is, does the music elevates the scenes in the movie the way the director wants it? And for a lot of movies, the answer is no. There are a lot of scores that worked well on album but absolutely sucked in the movie. I am one of the few people who like Blade Runner 2049 on album but I thought the way the music was placed and mixed was off in the film. Valarian and the City of a Thousand Planets is another one. On album, it was alright—I never liked Desplat’s overly complex and rarely memorable action scoring—but in the film, it was atrocious mainly because you couldn’t even hear the score. This is same problem I have with a lot of Marvel films. On album they are not bad, but in the film, they are buried behind fifty jokes and wasn’t well used at all. The idea that any score can “work” in the film is just not true. At least not with great quality.

 

Dunkirk is another example. It works well in the film, but did it elevate it? Or would it be even better if the film has no score at all? Those are interesting dilemmas. Then there are scores like Star Wars and LOTR where I felt the movies would be absolutely diminished without their presences. A score can totally make a scene. In Dune, I thought “Ripples in the Sand” was rather muted and ordinary on album but watching the Sandworm scene and seeing the ornithopters swoop in with the electronics was thrilling. In The Batman, Giacchino wrote a rather bland four note motif. But when pair with the fear-of-the-Batman concepts in the film, I absolutely get the decision and the scenes were better because of it.

 

I think it is fair to say that majority of the film scores are serviceable to an extent, but very few truly elevated the visuals and maximized their impact.

[bored 306]

17 minutes ago, Mephariel said:

very few truly elevated the visuals and maximized their impact.

 

The music in 2001: A Space Odyssey elevated the visuals on-screen... so? It wasn't made for the film, so by definition the film has no score. I know there was a rejected one, but it didn't appear in the film, so that movie does not have a good score. It had good music, and the way they use it kind of acts like a film score, but it isn't one, as the music was made to be something else entirely. All you need is a modicum of intelligence and basic music editing skills to make any music work really well in a film.

[Brónach 1,301]

"working well" is a really low bar. Being indiferent or unobtrusive is a really low bar too. You may as well have no score.

[crocodile 7,990]

Well, the score is quite a prominent feature in the film. And the stylistic choices make even more sense after watching it. It might not be the most brilliant composition but it certainly makes some impact in context.

 

As for the film, I really liked it. It is tad long though.

 

Karol

[Richard Penna 3,676]

I haven't listened to the score outside of the singles but I'm making a rare cinema visit to see it tomorrow so my first proper impression will be in context.

[Mr. Who 919]

The movie was amazing with the focus on the detective side of Batman and organised crime in Gotham.
 

Score wise, I’m a big fan of the cat-woman music, which is spot on whenever it appears and definitively the best part of the score. The Batman theme works in context but isn’t all that interesting IMO but it’s certainly catchy and I’m interested in how Giacchino will develop his Batman material in the next movie as I think doing the same thing in a sequel score wouldn’t be effective. 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

4 hours ago, Brónach said:

"working well" is a really low bar. Being indiferent or unobtrusive is a really low bar too. You may as well have no score.

True, But, some scores don't work well. Some even harm a film.

CONTEMPT by Delerue is beautiful but totally wrong dramatically.

PSYCHO elevated the film- hell, it MADE the film- but it's not a favorite like VERTIGO.

 

Judging from the ost ONLY- I haven't seen THE BATMAN- Gia composed a score that is MORE than "servicable".

 

 

 

Fyi the Batman theme is reminiscent of his DAWNPOTA theme!

[Mephariel 451]

4 hours ago, superultramegaa said:

 

The music in 2001: A Space Odyssey elevated the visuals on-screen... so? It wasn't made for the film, so by definition the film has no score. I know there was a rejected one, but it didn't appear in the film, so that movie does not have a good score. It had good music, and the way they use it kind of acts like a film score, but it isn't one, as the music was made to be something else entirely. All you need is a modicum of intelligence and basic music editing skills to make any music work really well in a film.

 

I mean, in essence, that is film music right? Film music is not symphony music. You are not writing for symphony, you are writing for film. Yeah, a score could have 3 repetitive notes and work really well with a film. And a score can also have 50 notes and is incompatible with film. But the art behind film scoring is in storytelling. That 3 notes is the conflict of feelings from the character. That 50 notes is a journey the characters take across 4 days. That is where the art is. I think you are missing the point of film scoring if you are so focus on whether the music is "basic" or "complex." Great film music is great musical storytelling that is simpatico with the visuals. There are a lot of scores that are great on album but have minimal impact in the stories. There are some scores that are not easy to listen on album but greatly elevate the scenes.  

[bored 306]

I understand all of this. Doesn't mean I don't think that a repetitive 3 note theme wouldn't be better as a 12-note theme that conveys a similar emotion. 

[Alex 2,833]

Is this film really worth going to see? Because 3 hours is a long time to spend sat in a cinema.

[Jay 37,322]

I just got home from the cinema.

 

The end credits reveal there were two additional composers: Mick Giacchino and Paul Apelgren

 

End credits used some of the sonata in it

[KK 3,307]

Film is great. Score is functional, does its job and hits all the right beats, like solid aesthetic window-dressing to an already strong film. But as music, has little artistic merit of its own.

[Richard Penna 3,676]

I saw the film last night - pretty good, nothing really to write home about. I really liked Pattinson's Batman, probably moreso than Bale's.

 

For the most part the music sounded mostly like Gia's usual emotional/dissonant strings. I can't remember the Penguin's theme at all, and Catwoman's material didn't stay with me, although it worked fine in the film. The Riddler's theme stands out a bit more and does it job as a 'puzzle'-driven theme, and the suite on album is nice, but I can't say it really did that much for me in the film.

 

Really only a few sequences musically stuck out to me and gave me a mental note to check out on album - the highway chase, which is to some extent a kind of percussion-driven take on the Batman theme, but helps propel an incredibly chaotic scene, and the opening montage (not Ave Maria - the bit after). Sadly, the final sequences in the stadium with the flood were just Gia back to his Lost roots, which never really did much for me. I also noticed the brass-driven section wherre he dives off the building in Escaped Crusader.

 

I'm going to compare this score thematically with Marianelli's score to Everest, in that both seem on album to be strange creative choices in terms of themes. You'd think that a disaster drama focused on Everest would have a big theme for the mountain (like pretty much every other one does), and it doesn't.

 

Hence, you'd think that a superhero movie would have a big, long-lined theme for the hero, and again, it doesn't.

 

However, watching Everest made it clear in my mind that their focus was 100% on the danger and emotional impact of the mountain - the main theme is subtle and mournful.

 

The resemblance to the Imperial March is absolutely there and I totally get that some JW fans may be unhappy that Gia has ripped off JW's creation. I had the same 'what the hell is this?' reaction when I heard the suite on YouTube. However, by the end of the opening montage I realised why his theme is what it is - the narrator talks about the Bat Signal being not so much a heroic call, as a warning to antagonists to be afraid. As has already been pointed out, the film is very much a detective-driven take on the character - Batman/Wayne is almost like Sherlock in some scenes - and hence this minimalist theme sounds oddly inappropriate on album, but I think it works great once you get the approach the film has taken.

 

I should point out that someone I was with who is generally a Star Wars fan, didn't notice the similarity until I pointed it out. I heavily suspect that this is a musical similarity that only those of us highly versed in scores will notice.

[Anthony 572]

Well damn. After seeing the movie, I do think this is perhaps Giacchino's best score. Best is not the same as favourite. It doesn't reinvent the wheel (nor does the film), but both take what has worked well in the past and focus on doing all of those things really, really well. Fair play, Giacchino. You're back.

[Romão 2,274]

I understand they're trying to carve their own path, but after seeing the movie, I'm absolutely conviced Elfman's theme could work perfectly with this version of the character.

 

As for taking a simple musical idea and using it as the backbone of the entire score, this leagues below something like JNH's Signs

[Mephariel 451]

1 hour ago, Romão said:

I understand they're trying to carve their own path, but after seeing the movie, I'm absolutely conviced Elfman's theme could work perfectly with this version of the character.

 

As for taking a simple musical idea and using it as the backbone of the entire score, this leagues below something like JNH's Signs

 

There are people who were convinced Elfman's theme would work for the Dark Knight trilogies too. They were wrong.

 

Although I could kind of see it work here, I think Reeves just wanted something to drive home that an angry, vengeful, vigilante is coming to get you. Batman didn't become complex until the end of the film when he was doing for more than that. 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

The way the Gia 4 note motif is used here, the Elfman theme would 100% work! 100%!

[Richard Penna 3,676]

The Elfman theme is an identity for Burton's Batman - why should Gia not be allowed to create an identity for Reeves' vision?

 

There's definitely a debate to be had around how successful Gia was within his approach (I think it worked well), but it shouldn't framed as 'why didn't he write a big orchestral theme?'.

 

JW told SS 'that's all you need' with his two-note theme for Jaws, after all.

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

I love Elfman's Batman Theme and score. It's one of the best ever made.

 

But if it would play in another Batman film without Keaton I would be taken out of the film. For me, Elfman's theme & Keaton's Batman are one and the same. They belong together and should stay together.

 

For me this happened in the theatrical version of Justice League. It was great to hear Elfman's theme blast loud in the theatre, but it didn't fit the Batman of Affleck nor the film it accompanied.

I am hoping to hear Elfman's theme again when he appears in The Flash later this year. I think Wallfisch will honor that

[bored 306]

1 hour ago, Richard Penna said:

JW told SS 'that's all you need' with his two-note theme for Jaws, after all.

 

I think that's a bad example, considering the Jaws theme isn't the two-note motif. That's just the buildup, and that piece actually has a longer-lined melody, which is the actual theme. The two-note motif is just for the Shark, it's not the main theme of the movie for the characters.

 

That's what most people take issue with in regards to Giacchino's theme. There is a longer melody for Bruce Wayne instead of Batman, similar to the Jaws approach, but it doesn't really have any character. It's just... there. 

[Richard Penna 3,676]

See, I think it does have character in the context of the film. Outside of the film, there's definitely an issue of relatability.

[Romão 2,274]

Just to clarify, all I meant to say is that Elfman's theme is good enough and compatible enough with this particular vision of the character (less so with Nolan's). I understand perfectly why they went their own way musically with this. I would've done the same

[HunterTech 987]

Everyone keeps listing the Elfman theme, yet when I listen to this particular portion of this track (which is also in the theme suite):

 

The place my brain decides to go to is:

 

Obviously, the 89 theme is more iconic, and yet I'm finding myself feeling like Walker's is perfect for the character. Granted, I think the former has been tainted by the whole JL debacle, and yet I don't know if there'd be much complaints if the B:TAS theme got some use down the road.

 

Having listened to the album days ago, I had very little of the complaints a lot have had, but I do think Gia scores generally aren't the best of listens on their own. The only one I can do that easily with is Ghost Protocol, and that's a deliberately lightweight effort that didn't require too much to be a fun romp (also, the history of M:I film scores was already a bit spotty, so less people would've judged it anyway). Really, with the little I've heard, he's often more enjoyable when he's simply making joy rides than anything that has more substance to it.

 

I normally agree with the argument regarding "it fits the film" being a terrible excuse for more middling scores (I hate the more emotional parts of Fury Road for this reason, and agree with the one user on BR2049), but at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite: I do not have that at all with Gia's Batman. It did more to add to the film than detract, and quite a few of the choices definitely were more logical with the picture in mind. I still wouldn't say it's particularly great, but it certainly is strong enough to be right at home with the other music portrayals. At least it wasn't BvS (despite having a better surrounding support for its banal Bat theme).

 

(Also, the album doesn't have the main on ends, so that sucks)

[bruce marshall 1,315]

[greenturnedblue 372]

6 hours ago, superultramegaa said:

There is a longer melody for Bruce Wayne

I really only noticed the Bruce theme as he was going to the funeral in his Vette

[bored 306]

23 minutes ago, HunterTech said:

I normally agree with the argument regarding "it fits the film" being a terrible excuse for more middling scores (I hate the more emotional parts of Fury Road for this reason, and agree with the one user on BR2049), but at the risk of sounding like a hypocrite: I do not have that at all with Gia's Batman.

That's fine. I was more annoyed at that excuse being used constantly for this film, rather than an issue with the score itself, though I stand by that a longer-lined Batman theme wouldn't necessarily have hurt this score. 

[HunterTech 987]

I said elsewhere that I find the issue with Gia's theme is that he's really gunning for the HZ "world of sound" approach that his Batman scores have, yet even the surrounding ideas are quite simplistic and don't do much to anchor the main theme in a way that keeps it particularly effective.

 

Regardless of what one may feel about the TDK scores, at least Zimmer planned out in advance a few routes he could take the material for both BB and the sequels (regardless of what he actually decided to go with or how he used key motifs):

 

Giacchino is rather lucky I still liked the general sound and flow of the piece, as I definitely expected it to grate on me more. I just really hope he has more in store for subsequent entries.

[leeallen01 2,134]

I am rarely enthusiastic about a score on first listen. It has to be something extremely energetic and complex to grab me instantly. 

 

Scores like this (minimalist and slow building) are never really fully connected and realised unless I see the film. Then it either makes sense or falls apart. For me, this score went from some nice moments and the rest quite empty, to wow, this score is fantastic, after seeing the film. 

 

A film score's primary intention is to work for the film. A great solo listening experience is a bonus, but judging a score's effectiveness and meaning outside of a film without context is the opposite of what a film score is for. 

 

I adored this score during the film, and now the solo listen can be enjoyed as I can visualise the intent of each piece. Giacchino had very distinct thematic ideas. His Batman theme is actually my favourite theme written for the character. It dominates the film. And is explored in every major scene as a detective motif, a horror motif, an action, love, sinister motif etc. And his Catwoman theme is wonderfully rich and seductive for her. And of course his Riddler theme incorporating the hymn is haunting and tense, with a real twisted core. 

 

I like the score the more I think about it and hear it. 

 

 

[Anthony 572]

Yep! In the context of the movie, everything works perfectly. Any shortcomings I first had with the score have washed away - I wouldn't want any of it to be different.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

Heck the scorenis getting popular...

 

https://variety.com/2022/artisans/news/batman-movie-score-michael-giacchino-1235198173/

 

I havent heard it yet, just the main themes, that i dont think are particulary good among other giacchino themes.... But this word of mouth is rather unexpected. Im very curious about the movie now

[Henry Sítrónu 494]

I had to think of the Imperial March too. But I just realised it‘s probably quoting the opening riff of the Nirvana song that appears at the beginning and the end of the film.  I mean, right??!!

 

 

 

[HunterTech 987]

I kind of thought that was the point once I saw the film, especially given it appeared in some of the trailers (plus it fits the more "emo" Bruce Wayne we get in-film). Hell, combine it with Ave Maria being tweaked for The Riddler, and a lot about the score suddenly makes more sense. It does make me wonder if Catwoman had a similar song to inspire her theme.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

 

 

1 hour ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Heck the scorenis getting popular...

 

We knew it would be months ago -

 

On 29/12/2021 at 10:55 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

On 29/12/2021 at 9:07 PM, Mephariel said:

On 29/12/2021 at 2:27 PM, TheUlyssesian said:

I will give them credit for one thing - even before the release of the film - Gia's Batman "theme" - let's call it that for now - has become one of the most famous and widely recognized "themes" in recent superhero memory.

 

3 things help it being already in the general consciousness - 

 

1. It's constant use in the movie's marketing

2. It being stolen almost outright from one of the famous movie themes in the history of cinema

3. It being so simple and simplistic

Is it one of the most famous and widely recognized "themes" in recent superhero memory? I have been browsing the comments in the trailers and it seems to me most people don't even realize that is the Batman "theme." I think a lot of people think that is just trailer music.

 

If Giacchino or the marketing team wants this theme to be widely recognized, they should release a single, and not just the demo.

Which I imagine they will. A friend of mine who listens to score soundtracks never recognized the theme in the trailer when we went to see The Matrix.

 

I bet the theme will receive more praise from fans once the movie is out.

 

It's a perfect fanboy theme at 4 notes - dumbed down and loud enough that everyone can recognize it. 

[KK 3,307]

Some of Giacchino’s arpeggios reminded of the Batman parody music in 30 Rock:

 

 

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I can tell who is posting here without even looking at the name.

Mythic Greek heroes are so consistent in their ignorance.

[DemonStar 57]

5 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

Heck the scorenis getting popular...

 

https://variety.com/2022/artisans/news/batman-movie-score-michael-giacchino-1235198173/

 

I havent heard it yet, just the main themes, that i dont think are particulary good among other giacchino themes.... But this word of mouth is rather unexpected. Im very curious about the movie now

 

It's become quite popular here in India as well. I watched the movie with a group of friends who are mostly not interested in film scores, but they all enjoyed the music and one guy said he's going to be listening to the album a lot in the coming days. They also stayed back for the end credits to listen to the music.

[Luke Skywalker 1,793]

5 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

 

 

We knew it would be months ago -

 

 

It's a perfect fanboy theme at 4 notes - dumbed down and loud enough that everyone can recognize it. 

Oh i didnt knew variety was a batman fanboys magazine.