Michael Giacchino's THE BATMAN (2022)

[Jay 37,306]

So here's the deal. Opinions such as these are perfectly valid to post:

 

On 19/03/2022 at 6:55 PM, JTW said:

I don’t hate Michael Giacchino. I just find his music boring, phoned in and uninspiring.

 

On 21/03/2022 at 9:54 AM, JTW said:

He IMHO is a mediocre-bad composer who hasn't yet written a really good score or a truly memorable theme

 

On 20/03/2022 at 2:37 PM, JTW said:

I love many film composers' work, but I would never put any of them higher than John Williams. Especially not Giacchino, who, as I said, IMHO is a mediocre composer at best.

 

And nobody here should ever make people feel they can't share opinions such as that!

 

 

HOWEVER, it is not implied that this therefore gives anyone free reign to repeatedly, in close proximity to each other within a thread, continually be negative about something over and over again.  We actually have a clause in the rules about a persistent negative attitude.  Again, negative opinions are absolutely allowed, but you cannot be surprised or offended if you make a series of negative posts in a single thread, and that then people might want to speak up and defend the subject matter at hand.  As a general rule of thumb, what tends to be the procedure is, once you have stated a negative opinion, you can back out and let people who enjoy the thing that you have a negative opinion on enjoy it, instead of continually returning to repeat your negative opinion.  In this particular case, it might have made more sense to start a new thread discussing Giacchino's body of work instead of cluttering up a thread where people are just trying to talk about one particular score of his.

 

 

Additionally, statements like this?

 

On 19/03/2022 at 6:55 PM, JTW said:

He thinks he is the new John Williams

 

That's closer to just straight up libel than an opinion which deserves to be protected here.  I would give you the benefit of the doubt and just say you are being very passionate about your opinions on him in general, however your followup posts paint a more clearer picture that to me reads like you just wanted to come in here and make a bold claim to purposely get people riled up and have a heated debate with you about Giacchino.  Just look at how combative you get in all these followup posts:

 

On 20/03/2022 at 1:29 PM, JTW said:

And you are clearly a bully who attacks those whose opinions differ from yours. Stop it. 

 

On 20/03/2022 at 1:29 PM, JTW said:

Who are you to bully and call a troll anyone? That makes YOU the troll IMHO. If you can't accept that others have a different opinion on certain subjects and you can't behave in a polite and civilized manner, you shouldn't be on this site. I never attacked neither you, nor those two people who insulted me in a personal way and called me names.

 

On 21/03/2022 at 9:54 AM, JTW said:

If you stop acting like a child and accept and respect other people's opinions then we can talk. 

 

15 hours ago, JTW said:

Says the guy who keeps acting like a child.

 

15 hours ago, JTW said:

I can't decide whether you're threatening me or joking, but you clearly are out of line. You see, I don't care one bit what the "reception" is like. This forum is not yours to "welcome" anyone. My or anyone else's comments are worth just as much as yours or others'. I don't care what you or anyone else think about me, because I don't care about you or anyone else.

 

39 minutes ago, JTW said:

You on the other hand are a very pushy person who won't let go, and keep attacking me. You don't seem to understand that no matter how many times you're pushing me to answer, it won't happen. 

 

39 minutes ago, JTW said:

Don't you see how ridiculous that sounds? What makes you think that I or anyone else writing on this forum wants to be "accepted"? Are you an adult or a child? This is not elementary school where the new kid either goes by the rules or they get bullied. 

 

39 minutes ago, JTW said:

I will not repeat myself, and I don't have to explain myself, not to anyone, not to you, and especially not because you demand it. If you can't accept it, and can't act like an adult, stop writing me. 

 

I think that your reactions to what others are saying are consistently kicking things up a notch from the tone others have, and feels to me like an attempt to bring everyone up to a combative level, when nobody else was trying to do that at all.

 

To be clear, it's completely valid and on topic to debate the merits of The Batman's score, good and bad, in this thread, and it's perfectly fine to discuss Giacchino's body of work, good and bad, maybe not necessarily in this thread, but on this forum in general.  Everybody should feel they are allowed to post negative opinions about his body of work and positive opinions about his body of work.  You don't need to make up claims about what he is trying to be to do so, and you don't need to call every opinion different than yours an "attack".

 

 

Finally, this idea you attempt to make?

 

On 20/03/2022 at 5:09 AM, JTW said:

Funny that someone writes something like this on a forum of a site dedicated to John Williams. This would make sense on a Zimmer or Giacchino fan site, not here where people who have a good taste in film music write. 
John Williams will always be the greatest, no matter how many new scores he’ll write in the future or if he retires forever. Even after he’ll be no more. I know this because I’m an admirer of his music and I’m writing on this particular site.

 

On 21/03/2022 at 9:54 AM, JTW said:

This is the forum of JWFan.com. It was created in order to celebrate Maestro John Williams, the greatest film composer of all time by those who believe he is the greatest. You can like many other film composers, like I do too, but I consider Maestro Williams the best, that's why I'm here on THIS site, on THIS forum.

 

On 20/03/2022 at 2:37 PM, JTW said:

If you're not a true fan of Maestro Williams, then why are you here?

 

I have to stop you right there and say: NO, no no!  First of all, we are not a forum consisting of some group-think mentality that everything JW does is perfect gold, and everything every other composer does is lesser.  We are a forum full of independent people with their own independent opinions of JW and other's works, and every opinion is allowed to be shared here.

 

Sure, the forum started in 1999 as a forum dedicated to the works of John Williams, but of course in the 23 years since it has evolved into a full film music discussion forum where everyone can talk about any score they want.  It is not a requirement to like the music of John Williams to use our forum!

 

Sure, many of us do think he's the best composer ever (myself included), but that does not mean I have to look down on every other composer just because they aren't as good as him.

 

So yes, people are absolutely allowed to love the music of Giacchino, or even consider him the best composer ever, on this John Williams forum!  Again - all opinions are valid!

 

 

So to wrap up, I think it's time to return this thread to being specifically about The Batman's score - there's still alot to discuss about it.

 

If people want to have a civilized discussion about Giacchino's body of work, absolutely feel free to do so in a thread dedicated to such a thing, and in that thread, everyone should be respectful of other's opinions, but also should not make bold claims that can't be backed up or repeat the same things ad nauseum that don't let an actual discussion happen organically.

 

Thanks!

[HunterTech 987]

Whoops I hadn't seen your post Jay. Sorry.

 

There was a motif in the score that reminded me a bit of some of the villain material in TRON: Legacy, but I can't remember where it is, nor do I think they're actually that especially similar. I do think it's what opens the unreleased main on ends track.

[Jay 37,306]

I thought someone said the end credits opening was the ending of "Escaped Crusader" followed by the ending of "Are You A Kenzie Or A Can't-zie?" ?

[crocodile 7,984]

Yes, I believe it is indeed an edit of those two cues. In fact I know it is. Seen it three times. 😄

 

@HunterTech do you mean Escaped Crusader 1:45 onwards?

 

Karol

[Jay 37,306]

I'd listen to someone's recreation of that using the OST tracks...

[HunterTech 987]

Huh! I wouldn't have thought it was an edit. Mostly because I'm used to these scores having some sort of dedicated end credits track.

 

And yes, it is indeed that portion! A curious observation, since people had felt the Holkenborg Bat material in ZSJL as sounding a bit too villainous. Yet here I am making this particular connection, which I suppose can highlight how much newer iterations blur the line more for the kind of feel the character has compared to Elfman/Walker/Goldenthal.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Almost 30 minutes of suites and they track score cues in the credits? weird choice.

[Jay 37,306]

I'd guess Reeves wanted the end credits to open strongly, have people leave the theater feeling a certain way that none of the suites hit on.

 

Of course, you'd think he could have asked Giacchino to write something specifically for the end credits, but maybe he realized he didn't have what he wanted too late?

[Edmilson 7,393]

I liked the cue that opens the end credits, I wish it was on the album.

[Jay 37,306]

Well as we discussed, it's just an edit of two cues that that are on the OST album, so technically it is

[bruce marshall 1,315]

I just realized this is a TWO CD release.

Oh boy!

I did buy KOTM but that wasn't 150 minutes. It was fairly easy to whittle down

[Smeltington 1,436]

This is the first Giacchino film score I ever bought. I don't know what came over me! I like it! I think the gumption to repeat the same simplistic theme ad nauseum just paid off surprisingly well. It's like a gimmick that actually works. I also enjoy the overall tone and the sound world the score creates, plus the "Bruce Wayne" theme is really solid.

[Jay 37,306]

Yea I can't believe I didn't initially latch onto the Bruce Wayne theme, as now those are amount my favorite parts of the album!

[Smeltington 1,436]

Yes, and it's nice that he didn't wear it out.

[Jay 37,306]

Yea!  I actually thought about that this morning, making some kind of poll or discussion thread about those themes that only make a few appearances in a score, but are very important to the narrative story.  But then I couldn't think of other examples right away even though I know there's a bunch

[Richard Penna 3,673]

I can imagine Gia composing and thinking how fans would react when they heard his approach. It heavily needs the film to understand why he did what he did.

 

All I know is that 10 mins into the film, I said to myself... I get it, and I like it.

 

I too didn't latch onto the Wayne theme to start with. Just felt like typical Gia strings to me, then I heard it on album and I got it. Very strange experience overall  

[Jay 37,306]

When I listen to the album and it shows up in Funeral and Far Between, it's just awesome.  Just what the score needs at that point

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

4 minutes ago, Richard Penna said:

I can imagine Gia composing and thinking how fans would react when they heard his approach. It heavily needs the film to understand why he did what he did.

 

But he composed it even before the film was shot...

[JTN 2,002]

I was listening to Chopin’s Piano Sonata No. 2 the other day and the beginning reminded me of Giacchino’s Batman Theme. 

 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

1 hour ago, JTW said:

I was listening to Chopin’s Piano Sonata No. 2 the other day and the beginning reminded me of Giacchino’s Batman Theme. 

 

 

Great find!

[crocodile 7,984]

This is The Imperial March as hummed by just about any regular person I know. 

 

Karol

[Miz 139]

Does anybody have an entry-level tracklist of highlights from this album?

[Jay 37,306]

1. Can't Fight City Halloween
2. The Riddler
3. Catwoman
4. Crossing The Feline
5. Penguin of Guilt
6. Highway to the Anger Zone
7. For All Your Pennyworth
8. A Bat In The Rafters, Part 1
9. A Bat In The Rafters, Part 2
10. The Batman

[JTN 2,002]

On 22/03/2022 at 4:03 PM, Jay said:

And nobody here should ever make people feel they can't share opinions such as that!

I just saw your comment because you didn't @ me, so apologies for only replying now. 

Thank you for stating that no one should make people feel they can't share opinions. Because that's exactly what keeps on happening here, and not just to me, but has happened e.g. to The Ulysessian in this exact thread. 

Namely that when I expressed my personal opinion (writing "IMHO", which I normally shouldn't have to), I got attacked. My negative reactions were just that, REACTIONS to those attacks. If I had not been attacked, I wouldn't've had to defend myself. If those who disagreed with my opinion, would have approached me in a polite and civilized manner, I would have reciprocated it in a similar fashion.

I have said that I do not tolerate being attacked and insulted, and I will defend myself. I believe that people should be allowed to have their personal opinion without getting attacked for it. 

Several people have said negative things about John Williams on this very forum, on a site dedicated to John Williams, with no repercussions whatsoever. If that sort of negativity is tolerated regarding Maestro John Williams, why aren't negative personal opinions about any other composer tolerated?

Again, I never attack or insult anyone for their personal opinions I disagree with, positive or negative. I only expect the same from others. I have said numerous times how much I respect the opinions of others whether I agree with them or not, and I shall continue to do so in the future. 

[Jay 37,306]

5 hours ago, JTW said:

Several people have said negative things about John Williams on this very forum, on a site dedicated to John Williams, with no repercussions whatsoever. If that sort of negativity is tolerated regarding Maestro John Williams, why aren't negative personal opinions about any other composer tolerated?

 

I already covered this in my post that you quoted one sentence from. Read the entire post for the answer to this. 

[JTN 2,002]

3 hours ago, Jay said:

 

I already covred this in my post that you quoted one sentence from. Read the entire post for the answer to this. 

I did read your long post and I responded to it.
Should I have quoted your entire long post? 
I hope that you read my post too that you quoted two sentences from.

[Jay 37,306]

You asked:

 

5 hours ago, JTW said:

Several people have said negative things about John Williams on this very forum, on a site dedicated to John Williams, with no repercussions whatsoever. If that sort of negativity is tolerated regarding Maestro John Williams, why aren't negative personal opinions about any other composer tolerated?

 

I answered:

 

On 22/03/2022 at 11:03 AM, Jay said:

we are not a forum consisting of some group-think mentality that everything JW does is perfect gold, and everything every other composer does is lesser.  We are a forum full of independent people with their own independent opinions of JW and other's works, and every opinion is allowed to be shared here.

 

Sure, the forum started in 1999 as a forum dedicated to the works of John Williams, but of course in the 23 years since it has evolved into a full film music discussion forum where everyone can talk about any score they want.  It is not a requirement to like the music of John Williams to use our forum!

 

Sure, many of us do think he's the best composer ever (myself included), but that does not mean I have to look down on every other composer just because they aren't as good as him.

 

So yes, people are absolutely allowed to love the music of Giacchino, or even consider him the best composer ever, on this John Williams forum!  Again - all opinions are valid!

 

[JTN 2,002]

2 minutes ago, Jay said:

You asked:

 

 

I answered:

 

 

I answered too.

[JTN 2,002]

1 hour ago, Jay said:

we are not a forum consisting of some group-think mentality that everything JW does is perfect gold

I have been collecting film soundtracks since the early 90s. I have thousands of CDs from dozens of great film composers. Never did I think, nor say that everything every other composer than John Williams does is lesser. The best proof for that is my film music collection that has dozens of scores by many many other composers than John Williams. But to me John Williams is and forever will be the greatest. That is the reason I have followed jwfan.com for more than a decade. Because I wanted to know as much about my favorite composer as possible. Because I thought he was the best.

 

For years I read the forum and for years the behavior of several people on this forum held me back from participating. Frankly I was shocked and appalled by what I read. 

Some of the people writing on this forum have no or little respect for John Williams. They constantly mock him, make jokes about him, in general talk about him in a way that I as someone who have the deepest respect for this man, who is old enough to be my grandfather, and was already composing great music when I was born, simply couldn't believe or stomach. What some of the people sid and still say about him time and again, I simply find outrageous. 

 

To me John Williams is truly my biggest role model. A true inspiration. A living legend.

I'm someone whom the Maestro actually hugged. I'm someone to whom he actually wrote letters to. I cannot express in poor words how much and what he means to me, nor do I want to, that's just my own private matter. I know that there are people on this forum who understand what I'm talking about. There are people like Maurizio Caschetto who truly understand what John Williams' art means. What an inspiration he is to someone like me. A ray of light in the darkness, a beacon of hope. His music does change the lives of some of us. His sheer existence makes our lives better, more. But alas there are several people on this forum who can't or won't comprehend this. They make me sad, because they may think that they respect the Maestro, but they don't. 

 

When I finally decided to join this forum, I did it in a hope that there would be more people of the kind that are like me. Who truly respect and appreciate John Williams. Who would never make tasteless jokes about him, who would never mock him by writing jokes that they think are funny about his photos, his physical appearance or the clothes he wears. Who really, truly admire his work, his career, his legacy, everything he represents. What he means to people like me, whose life John Williams de facto changed. 

 

But when I joined this forum, I soon found that there were people here who couldn't stand that there can be opinions other than theirs, and they attacked, insulted me in a personal manner. Something I cannot tolerate. The final straw was when the moderator of this forum wrote to me a condescending, lecturing post where he deliberately misinterpreted my thoughts, and in a biased way told me that everyone was allowed to their opinion, except for those whose opinion they deem doesn't. This kind of tyrannical behavior is, in my humble opinion, the death of democracy, freedom of speech, and it's something I will never ever tolerate.

Democracy isn't when people are forbidden to discuss certain topics like an ongoing war or how feminism and tokenism destroys the art form of film music. It's the opposite. People should be allowed to discuss these things, to be negative if they want, because it's their right to question certain things, to debate certain things in a polite and respectful manner, without insulting one another.

Who, I wonder, has the nerve to decide what is right or wrong and think that they alone can decide what it is? Only tyrants. 

 

During the short period of time I spent on this forum I was called a troll because I expressed my opinion, I was mocked like they had a right to it, because they knew they could get away with it, and just because I was alone with my opinion, they felt entitled to believe that they are automatically right. Well, they aren't.

Some of the people on this forum are a disgrace to everything John Williams represents, because yes, I do believe that people who regularly post on this forum should be his greatest fans. Being his greatest fans and admirers naturally doesn't mean that they can't or shouldn't like other composers work, that would be insane, and I would never say something like that, never have. Ever. 

 

Some of the regular posters on this forum should really think through exactly what John Williams means to them, and whether they truly understand what being a fan, or how I think of myself, an admirer of Maestro John Williams means. Because in my humble opinion some of the people writing on this forum have absolutely no idea what it means. I suggest you ask Maurizio Caschetto a.k.a. TownerFan, I'm sure he would be happy to oblige. It's never too late to learn what being truly inspired by someone's life and work means. Never too late. 

 

I will no longer write on this forum. 

I would like to thank every single person who I had great and informative conversations with - there were innumerous thankfully -, I'm grateful for all their knowledge and enthusiasm on the subjects we covered, and for the respect and politeness they showed towards me.

I wish them the best of luck and from the bottom of my heart wish that they have many wonderful experiences enjoying and celebrating John Williams' and other great composers' music. 

 

I would also like to thank Ricard L. Befan for his everlasting dedication in sharing all the important details regarding the work of John Williams. His site has been the best source of information for every true admirer of the Maestro.

 

Keep up the good work, Ricard, and thanks so much. 

 

JTW

[Jay 37,306]

Peace

[bollemanneke 3,338]

Um... Reading this thread is... surreal...?

[Richard Penna 3,673]

Talk about derailing a thread...

[Jay 37,306]

It's all good, let's go back to talking about this Batman score in this Batman thread

 

I'm still confused about if there is a place where you can be guaranteed to get a pressed CD instead of a CDR.

 

I ordered from Amazon Japan, but it's on backorder so hasn't actually shipped yet, and I could cancel it if there's a sure bet somewhere else...

[HunterTech 987]

Is it weird that I'm not particularly enamored with the Selina Kyle theme? It's a well composed piece that works very well in film, but it just doesn't quite come to mind like Batman and Riddler themes do. Perhaps I simply find it a bit too low key compared to other Gia love themes (being particularly fond of the one from his M:I work), but that's how I feel. Maybe I'll feel different on another listen.

[Jay 37,306]

I like it, but I feel like I always forget its a part of the score until I'm listening to the album, while the Batman and Riddler themes feel like they are the central core of it, if that makes any sense

[Mr. Who 919]

I really enjoy the Cat-woman theme and it's definitively my favorite aspect of the score. Like others have said, it reminds me a bit of James Bond which is always a good thing.

[Richard Penna 3,673]

I wasn't taken by it at first - actually the same applies to all of the themes in this score. I didn't like the Wayne theme to start with, and now I can hum it.

 

My personal playlist essentially drops two sections of score that I find a bit boring - tracks 4-7 and 17-21. It still gives me 63 minutes, which would be a reasonably satisfying album in the average case.

 

Although I've never really listened to the Sonata at the end.

[Jay 37,306]

I really don't like the Sonata track at all.  Something about it rubs me the wrong way

[Anthony 572]

I don't mind it, but I sure wish it was a full orchestral suite rather than a sonata.

[crocodile 7,984]

I don't mind segments of it being trimmed for the end credits in between the orchestral beginning and end. At 12 minutes, however, it is really feels thin and stretched....

 

 

Karol

[Richard Penna 3,673]

Meh, it's a bonus track. If you don't like it, don't listen to it  

 

I gave the whole set another listen the other evening (in a quiet environment) and those two 'boring' sections stuck out a little more, so I've put the whole release in my playlist. Sometimes just takes a while. The Sonata is okay - it's sort of okay to have on in the background, especially when the Wayne and Catwoman themes are a bit more familiar.

[JNHFan2000 2,944]

This is great!

 

 

[Mephariel 451]

On 05/04/2022 at 1:57 PM, Jay said:

I really don't like the Sonata track at all.  Something about it rubs me the wrong way

 

So I guess I am the only one who really liked that track? Maybe because my minimalistic Zimmer sensibilities kicked in while listening.

[Kasey Kockroach 2,343]

Four notes.

[Jay 37,306]

On 08/04/2022 at 5:51 PM, JNHFan2000 said:

This is great!

 

Thanks for sharing that, I really enjoyed it! 

[artguy360 1,843]

Watched the movie on HBO Max. The movie is a solid Batman film. The score is exactly as I expected from listening to the OST: a fitting score I will never listen to on it's own. The music totally works in the film, but even the two Batman themes are not pieces I will revisit the way I do some of the Elfman and Zimmer stuff. Not knocking it, just not music I would enjoy listening to on its own.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

I did also watch it yesterday. It was a great batman film. Not very flashy that would make me do repeated viewings though. The score i was expecting the main theme as in the theme track all over the film…and it wasnt there that much, so good. But i found it very low in volume it did not stand out very much excepting in some parts

[badbu 123]

2 hours ago, Luke Skywalker said:

But i found it very low in volume it did not stand out very much excepting in some parts

true 

[A. A. Ron 1,740]

I also saw this yesterday. It’s fine. Certainly well cast. Hugely overrated though.

[Jay 37,306]

Interesting note on Intrada's order page

 

"please note - all copies we received have either a slight scratch or crack in the CD case"

 

https://store.intrada.com/s.nl/it.A/id.12589/.f