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Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

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Who knows, @Thekthithm but apparently Hidalgo says it's possible for non canon details to be accepted if it doesn't contradict established canon.

 

My guess is it's for small, insignificant details like if Leia ever took a shit on Endor and the canon says there was a porta-potty that was green, but in the EU it says it was red - the EU would be canon in that case.

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Well, a while ago there was talk of six different endings Abrams wrote/shot whatever. This to me sounds a little far-fetched, but wouldn't be surprising if true considering the shifting tectonic plates with all these properties, and the endless reshoots.

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13 minutes ago, Modest Expectations said:

The backstage of this film is very murky. Whatever is happening there, we will know only some time after the release.

Will we? Pretty sure there are things under wraps from TFA that are being suppressed, like the J.W. Rinzler blog which was such a juicy read...

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FYC Album is now available:

 

https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/30975-rise-of-the-skywalker-for-your-consideration-fyc-album-now-available-no-film-spoilers-allowed/

 

If you guys want to discuss how the music or even just the track titles relate to the actual plot of the film based on the leaked spoilers or whatever, do that here, not in that thread.  Let that thread be just about the music until after the film it out.  Thank you.

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Just wondering, does anyone actually believe this story was planned? Surely you don't think this trilogy had a purpose or a structure of storytelling...

 

TFA was a remake of ANH to give people a reintroduction into Star Wars again and to create a basic foundation to build on.

 

TLJ was one man's literal first draft ignoring all of TFA and inventing all new story ideas.

 

TROS is a desperate course correction of bringing back every dead and forgotten OT character in order to make people forget how poorly written and uninteresting this Disney Star Wars era is, by simply giving us another round of "look, it's Palpatine! Look, it's Lando!"

 

"Like this film please! Now eat this corporate slop and give us billions of dollars, you weirdos."

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We'll have to watch the film to see if the reappearane of the old guard is meant to pander to fans or not. I do believe Abrams when he says that he brought back the Emperor in order to knit the entire series together. It strikes me as a patchwork-solution, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

I do not believe it was at all preplanned, namely because the previous two films do nothing to overtly build up to it. All we have is one quote that's been wrestled out of Kathleen Kennedy as she was walking away. JJ Abrams never really said it explicitly: he always comes across as deliberately trying to skirt around it.

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16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

We'll have to watch the film to see if the reappearane of the old guard is meant to pander to fans or not. 

 

Seriously? The entire Disney Star Wars era has been just one big "member Star Wars? I member! Member Han Solo? I member!" Etc etc.

 

Let's not kid ourselves. Kathleen Kennedy and the 'story group' immediately decided to bring every single OT thing back so the fans would be fooled by nostalgia and give them money.

 

No one with a shred of intelligence believes Lando or the Emperor are being brought back for 'story' reasons, and not simply because of a lack of ideas and a reliance on nostalgia dollars.

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Brining in Lando and jumping through hoops to keep Leia around does reek of pandering to fans.

 

Bringing back Palpatine (and having his return be so prominent in the marketing) reads to me as something more. Its JJ Abrams trying to work around an issue that was always inherent to the sequel trilogy: that it takes place after the story of Star Wars had ended.

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No, its an attempt (which strikes me as superficial, but we'll wait and see) to justify a trilogy that never should have been made, regardless of how it was made.

 

The Star Wars series ended with Return of the Jedi. There's no getting around that.

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7 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

No, its an attempt to justify a trilogy that never should have been made, regardless of how it was made.

 

What I said is essentially the same - 

 

"Palpatine is simply a lazy attempt to salvage this dreadfully fragmented trilogy."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I say it's a lazy attempt to salvage the trilogy (which is impossible)

 

You say it's an attempt to justify the trilogy.

 

Salvage and justify have the same suggestive meaning for my overall point.

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Even if it wasn't fragmented; even if it was one filmmaker's vision through-and-through, even if they shot all three films in one go, LOTR-style; even if they were all fantastic films - none of it would change the fact that the Star Wars series ended with Return of the Jedi.

 

The whole concept of a sequel trilogy (the one that we got or otherwise) is inherently flawed.

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

Even if it wasn't fragmented; even if it was one filmmaker's vision through-and-through, even if they shot all three films in one go, LOTR-style; even if they were all fantastic films - none of it would change the fact that the Star Wars series ended with Return of the Jedi.

 

The whole concept of a sequel trilogy (the one that we got or otherwise) is inherently flawed.

 

 

 

Of course. I'm not arguing against that.

 

But considering it does exist, I am arguing against their decision making and overall poor product.

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The classic trilogy is just as fragmented, to my eyes: each film has at least one plot twist that does not at all sit with the contents of the films that came before. Vader being Luke's father doesn't sit with Ben's clearly-earnst account of the death of Luke's father, and Leia being Luke's sister really doesn't sit with the previous two films. Also, each film in a trilogy has a distinctivelly different directorial style, flow, and even the writing is different due to Lucas bringing on other writers.

 

But I suppose nostalgia patches those things over.

 

Even the prequel trilogy, by far the most preplanned of the three, has its continuity hickups and missed opportunities for threads that could have run through all three films (namely, the lack of one physical antagonsit a-la Vader).

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True, ANH was a singular story. And Empire and Jedi were kind of Part 1 and 2 of a singular story. But most importantly it was one man's overall vision, with a clear story that carries over, and has great attention to character. Even the prequels were one man's vision with a clear story of Anakins fall. The sequel trilogy has no single persons vision, no consistent characters and no story that could possibly coherently carry over 3 films. 

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5 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

most importantly it was one man's overall vision, with a clear story that carries over

 

It wasn't a "clear story that carries over" because Lucas was structuring each episode as he came around to making it. There was little to no forethought put into the trilogy as a whole: they are three individual films. If you were being charitable you might say that Lucas' tinkering after-the-fact helped weave the thing together a bit more (with Ian McDiarmid in The Empire Strikes Back and both Jabba and Boba appearing in the original film).

 

Its great that Lucas was involved in the writing of all three films, but its hardly his singular vision. It could never be, with two people other than himself directing the two sequels, and at least one other writer (Lawrence Kasdan) being very prominent in shaping the story for both sequels.

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My guess on what the titles mean: I can edit the post if i'm asked to and if people think it's too spoilery

 

  • 01 Prologue (1:45) - Kylo kills the natives and gets the wayfinder; lots of Kylo's/First Order theme in there
  • 02 Falcon Flight (2:22) - Poe and Finn escape the ice asteroid after meeting with the FO informant; Emperor's theme at 0:20; Falcon theme at 0:57 and 2:04, Resistance theme at 1:29
  • 03 We Go Together (2:10) - Rey, Poe and Finn decide to go to Pasana; Jedi Steps and Force theme in the second half
  • 04 In the Desert (2:26) - Rey, Poe, Finn, C-3PO, BB-8 and Chewie are on Pasana
  • 05 A Prisoner (1:23) - The FO captures Chewie on Pasana
  • 06 To Kijimi (1:37) - Rey, Poe, Finn and C-3PO arrive on Kijimi
  • 07 Fleeing from Kijimii (1:53) - Zorri helps Rey, Poe, Finn and C-3PO escape from Kijimi; Kylo's theme at 0:22 and 0:33
  • 08 Hallway Shooting (2:11) - Rey, Poe, Finn and C-3PO are aboard Kylo's cruiser above Kijimi in an attempt to rescue Chewbacca and get the Falcon; Resistance theme at 1:22
  • 09 Hard to Get Rid Of (2:19) - Possibly Rey finding the dagger aboard Kylo's cruiser; Emperor's theme at 1:28
  • 10 Join Me (2:21) - Possibly Rey and Kylo having their Force Skype fight; A hint of the Emperor's theme at 0:58; main theme at 1:53; Jedi Steps theme at 2:07
  • 11 The Old Death Star (2:14) - Rey, Poe, Finn BB-8 and C-3PO first see the Death Star
  • 12 Off the Waterfront (1:03) - Rey enters the DS
  • 13 Final Saber Duel (1:38) - Rey fights Kylo on the Death Star and eventually stabs him; Kylo's/FO theme at 0:43
  • 14 Healing Wounds (2:49) - Rey heals Kylo after stabbing him; Force theme at 0:40; holy shit Han's and Leia's theme at 1:44
  • 15 Advice (1:54) - Han talks to Kylo after Rey heals him
  • 16 Battle of the Resistance (1:54) - The big space battle above Exogol begins
  • 17 Approaching the Throne (4:16) - Rey enters Sheev's lair
  • 18 Parents (1:57) - Palps tells Rey the truth about her parents and Ochee; Kylo's theme at 1:19
  • 19 Coming Together (1:44) - Kylo shows up to help Rey fight Palps? The music turns very uplifting 1:17; Force theme at 1:19
  • 20 Seeing Sights (3:17) - Possibly Dark Rey vision? Order 66 theme at 0:34, Rey's theme at 0:42, Jedi Steps theme at 1:44, Emperor's theme at 2:20, Force theme at 2:49
  • 21 Rescue (1:10) - Some motifs associated with the Falcon; possibly someone rescuing Finn and Jannah during the space battle
  • 22 Farewell (4:27) - Kylo's Noble End. The music turns VERY uplifting at 3:36 - possibly Kylo reviving Rey? Fits pretty well with the newest leaks
  • 23 A New Home (1:42) - Rey buries the lightsabers on Tattooine and proclaims herself to be Rey Skywalker (ugh); Rey's theme at 0:18

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

It wasn't a "clear story that carries over" because Lucas was structuring each episode as he came around to making it. There was little to no forethought put into the trilogy as a whole: they are three individual films.

 

Its great that Lucas was involved in the writing of all three films, but its hardly his singular vision. It could never be, with two people other than himself directing the two sequels, and at least one other writer (Lawrence Kasdan) being very prominent in shaping the story.

 

 

I was referring to the fact that Lucas was behind it all. Overseeing the vision. Of course he didn't plan it all out, but he did end up making two trilogies that had stories that made sense over 3 films. They didn't seem utterly separate and lacking any coherence.

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Just now, leeallen01 said:

I was referring to the fact that Lucas was behind it all. Overseeing the vision.

 

But he wasn't. He wasn't the director on either of the two sequels, and he had at least one more writer besides him shaping the story.

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1 minute ago, Chen G. said:

 

But he wasn't. He wasn't the director on either of the two sequels, and he had at least one more writer besides him shaping the story.

 

But he was still there overseeing it all. 

 

You can watch both his trilogies separately thinking "okay that was one story that made sense." But with the sequel trilogy, it is obviously invented day by day by people who have no idea where they're going, and thus end up seriously contradicting themselves. 

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3 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

But he was still there overseeing it all. 

 

No, he wasn't.

 

Lucas wasn't even on the set for most of the shoot of The Empire Strikes Back. He did try to make his own edit of the film, only for his work to be belittled by the director, writers and producer and eventually abandoned.

 

So much for oversight.

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Of course he was involved, especially on Return of the Jedi, but he wasn't "overseeing" the whole affair, with other directors and writers simply there to realize his vision. He was letting them have at it.

 

I mean, he did write the treatment and re-wrote several drafts of the script for The Empire Strikes Back; and he oversaw the creation of shots which were reliant on special effects, but that's basically the extent of his involvement.

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8 minutes ago, leeallen01 said:

Exactly my point. He was involved in the stories for all 3 OT films. 

 

You realize how little that matters, surely? I mean, you can take the same basic story beats of The Empire Strikes Back and, in execution, make a movie that’s absolutely godawful.

 

Its all in the execution of the story, rather than the story itself.

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44 minutes ago, BrendanT1993 said:

My guess on what the titles mean: I can edit the post if i'm asked to and if people think it's too spoilery

 

  • 01 Prologue (1:45) - Kylo kills the natives and gets the wayfinder; lots of Kylo's/First Order theme in there
  • 02 Falcon Flight (2:22) - Poe and Finn escape the ice asteroid after meeting with the FO informant; Emperor's theme at 0:20; Falcon theme at 0:57 and 2:04, Resistance theme at 1:29
  • 03 We Go Together (2:10) - Rey, Poe and Finn decide to go to Pasana; Jedi Steps and Force theme in the second half
  • 04 In the Desert (2:26) - Rey, Poe, Finn, C-3PO, BB-8 and Chewie are on Pasana
  • 05 A Prisoner (1:23) - The FO captures Chewie on Pasana
  • 06 To Kijimi (1:37) - Rey, Poe, Finn and C-3PO arrive on Kijimi
  • 07 Fleeing from Kijimii (1:53) - Zorri helps Rey, Poe, Finn and C-3PO escape from Kijimi; Kylo's theme at 0:22 and 0:33
  • 08 Hallway Shooting (2:11) - Rey, Poe, Finn and C-3PO are aboard Kylo's cruiser above Kijimi in an attempt to rescue Chewbacca and get the Falcon; Resistance theme at 1:22
  • 09 Hard to Get Rid Of (2:19) - Possibly Rey finding the dagger aboard Kylo's cruiser; Emperor's theme at 1:28
  • 10 Join Me (2:21) - Possibly Rey and Kylo having their Force Skype fight; A hint of the Emperor's theme at 0:58; main theme at 1:53; Jedi Steps theme at 2:07
  • 11 The Old Death Star (2:14) - Rey, Poe, Finn BB-8 and C-3PO first see the Death Star
  • 12 Off the Waterfront (1:03) - Rey enters the DS
  • 13 Final Saber Duel (1:38) - Rey fights Kylo on the Death Star and eventually stabs him; Kylo's/FO theme at 0:43
  • 14 Healing Wounds (2:49) - Rey heals Kylo after stabbing him; Force theme at 0:40; holy shit Han's and Leia's theme at 1:44
  • 15 Advice (1:54) - Han talks to Kylo after Rey heals him
  • 16 Battle of the Resistance (1:54) - The big space battle above Exogol begins
  • 17 Approaching the Throne (4:16) - Rey enters Sheev's lair
  • 18 Parents (1:57) - Palps tells Rey the truth about her parents and Ochee; Kylo's theme at 1:19
  • 19 Coming Together (1:44) - Kylo shows up to help Rey fight Palps? The music turns very uplifting 1:17; Force theme at 1:19
  • 20 Seeing Sights (3:17) - Possibly Dark Rey vision? Order 66 theme at 0:34, Rey's theme at 0:42, Jedi Steps theme at 1:44, Emperor's theme at 2:20, Force theme at 2:49
  • 21 Rescue (1:10) - Some motifs associated with the Falcon; possibly someone rescuing Finn and Jannah during the space battle
  • 22 Farewell (4:27) - Kylo's Noble End. The music turns VERY uplifting at 3:36 - possibly Kylo reviving Rey? Fits pretty well with the newest leaks
  • 23 A New Home (1:42) - Rey buries the lightsabers on Tattooine and proclaims herself to be Rey Skywalker (ugh); Rey's theme at 0:18


You’d think the fabled story group would have sat down with JJ and Rian at some point and mapped out the trilogy in its major beats but no. We got this horrible mess of an ending because JJ had to salvage something from Johnson’s interquel. 

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Lol Kathleen Kennedy said months ago that Palpatine's return had always been planned, but then Colin Trevorrow (original director of IX) just admitted a week or two ago that Palpatine was never in the cards until JJ was brought back on board for IX. The fact of the matter is that this trilogy is a haphazard, largely unplanned mess. They obviously didn't know what to do after Snoke was killed off in TLJ, so JJ decided to bring back the PT and OT's Big Bad for just this one film. It's cheap.

 

And apparently Anakin doesn't even make an appearance. If the whole basis of the "Skywalker Saga" was that it was Anakin's story, and that Anakin was the Chosen One who fulfilled the prophecy by killing Palpatine in ROTJ—then how on Earth does this not undermine that? It completely destroys the story of the first six films. Because apparently Palpatine survived, somehow, and apparently Rey is a Palpatine, and apparently the "Skywalker Saga" is set to end with a Palpatine (Rey) claiming to be a Skywalker, while all the actual Skywalkers in the bloodline are dead... It's depressing. ROTJ was a perfect ending; frankly this trilogy has no business even existing except for the meta reason of Disney wanting to make money and thinking it was an easy cash grab.

 

The only way they could come close to salvaging this mess would be by having Anakin come back and still be the one to deliver the killing blow to Palpatine—but still, even if they did that, it still goes against the idea that he fulfilled the prophecy in ROTJ. Which is what has been canon up to this point. Disney is blowing up existing lore just to hand cheap victories to their new characters, at the expense of the classic characters. Heck, I just saw an article today in which an author was debating whether Kylo or Rey is the real Chosen One...?!?! That question shouldn't even be on the table, considering that George confirmed multiple times as did THE CLONE WARS show, that Anakin was the Chosen One—period.

 

Bottom line, it seems that Anakin's victory over the Sith is being handed over to a Disney character. Why exactly couldn't they have waited some more years to do a trilogy, to do it the right way? Or why couldn't they have set a trilogy in a completely different era of the SW universe, one in which the beloved characters are not around to have their characters assassinated/victories taken from them? It just seems Disney can only build their own characters up by putting the classic ones down.

 

For instance, it's very telling that they said they had to cut down Luke's screen time in TFA, because in the original drafts of the film, he stole the show every scene he was in: it's clear that the Disney characters simply weren't compelling enough, next to the OT ones. So their solution was to undermine the OT characters. I just still can't believe that apparently Anakin doesn't make an appearance in this final film, even though Palpatine is still around... It's wild. Never thought as recently as a few years ago, that Disney SW would become such a disappointment... I've been a diehard SW fan since I was 4 years old, so I was thrilled at the prospect of more films... But not if this is what they're going to do to the franchise. Williams' scores are the only redeeming factor for me, at this point.

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Its a probelm that's inherent to making sequels to the final chapter of a series. Like Lucas, they should have just stuck to making spinoffs, instead.

 

"Hey, lets film a sequel to The Return of the King!" - nobody; ever.

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5 hours ago, Tydirium said:

For instance, it's very telling that they said they had to cut down Luke's screen time in TFA, because in the original drafts of the film, he stole the show every scene he was in: it's clear that the Disney characters simply weren't compelling enough, next to the OT ones.

 

Say what now?  The single greatest strength of this new trilogy, from a story perspective, is how these new characters just leap off the screen they're so charismatic and compelling.  I've enjoyed your posts on stuff like the music of Mandalorian and TROS, but clearly we're coming from different perspectives when it comes to these movies.  What else is new in the world of Star Wars!  Civil war without end!

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@Tydirium seems like the reddit leak thread might be true - if so I've spoiled it all :'(

 

Sounds like fun, but the ghosts of Leia and Luke stepping into help save Rey and overpower Palpatine reminds me too much of the duel between Harry and Voldemort in Goblet of Fire where the ghosts of his parents hold Voldemort off!

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