Tom 4,658 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 6 hours ago, Chen G. said: Not at the end of the film he's not. If Abrams goes another way with him, it'll be a cop-out from the traejectory set by The Last Jedi. To be fair, Abrams is allowed to pull a Johnson. Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 @Arpy In my mind, the moment where Kylo decides to kill Han is where his internal conflict ends. He was conflicted prior to that moment, but after that point, he became evil, and rightly so: even Vader couldn't bring himself to kill his son, but Kylo did kill his father. That was, for me, the moment where the sequel triogy started forge its own path, and I think Johnson went with it, showing Ben going to kill his uncle, and failing not because of his hesitation but because his uncle was an astral projection. Its not established whether he knows his mother survived or not, but at the end of The Last Jedi he orders her base be occupied with "no quarter". Usually, I can relate to and even like opinions other than my own, but in this case I just can't. I think its morally reprehensible to even contemplate the idea of Kylo Ren being redeemed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayesian 1,363 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, Chen G. said: @Arpy In my mind, the moment where Kylo decides to kill Han is where his internal conflict ends. He was conflicted prior to that moment, but after that point, he became evil, and rightly so: even Vader couldn't bring himself to kill his son, but Kylo did kill his father. That was, for me, the moment where the sequel triogy started forge its own path, and I think Johnson went with it, showing Ben going to kill his uncle, and failing not because of his hesitation but because his uncle was an astral projection. Its not established whether he knows his mother survived or not, but at the end of The Last Jedi he orders her base be occupied with "no quarter". Usually, I can relate to and even like opinions other than my own, but in this case I just can't. I think its morally reprehensible to even contemplate the idea of Kylo Ren being redeemed. But isn’t the whole of TLJ about Kylo Ren fighting with his internal conflict? Early on, Snoke tells him that killing Han split his soul to the core. Later, he is visibly conflicted about pulling the trigger on his own mother and in fact does not do it (it ends up being some anonymous guy who does it). Throughout TLJ, Kylo is clearly trying to talk himself into believing that he is evil. Unfortunately, Rey keeps calling him out on it. And after losing his mentor Snoke, after an endless chase after Rebellion remnants who refuse to die, Kylo latches onto Luke’s surprise appearance as a means to vindicate his path up to that point: he needs to blame Luke for everything (which he does) and needs to destroy him with everything he’s got in order to prove to himself he’s in the right. But Luke humiliates him (Kylo can’t kill a force projection) and taunts him about his path into evil. And the fact that Luke’s feint allows the rebels time to escape can only have humiliated him further. The whole time, Kylo is pushing against the tide by trying to be evil. It wouldn’t surprise me to see him in TROS change allegiance in the final act, after being gaslighted by Palpatine through the first three-quarters of the film. He doesn’t necessarily need to become “good” all of a sudden—he can (and should) simply want revenge for being lied to this whole time and being manipulated into killing his father (and mother too, nearly). Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 There are two ways to read Kylo's arc in The Last Jedi: either he evolves (techincally, devolves) into an evil villain, or he gets revealed as such, having been just that ever since he killed his father. In either case, he ends up as evil. It strikes me that he's fooling both Snoke and Rey throughout the film, having decided to overthrow Snoke sometime early in the film. Its certainly established that he can fool Snoke. and he's certainly got something planned when he talks to Rey in the elevator. That leaves his refusal to kill his mother as his only true piece of internal conflict in the film. Either way, the point is that he ends the film a villain. That he aims to "destroy her, and you, and everything", that Luke "can't save him" (as he later admits to Kylo himself), that Rey shuts the door on their Force-connection - everything points to that. I think its one of the main fan expectations Johnson aimed to subvert, and for one I'm all for it. I think its very faithful to the closing act of The Force Awakens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayesian 1,363 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 You're right about Kylo fooling Snoke -- I was mistaken in saying Kylo "lost" Snoke, since it was he who killed him. But he probably wasn't fooling Rey. He probably can't fool her -- after all, he lost to her in the forest in TFA and couldn't get her to remotely consider joining his side, despite everything he said or tried in TLJ. She's preternaturally, freakishly strong with the Force. But that doesn't mean he and Rey couldn't team up to defeat Snoke for their own reasons. Throughout TLJ, all I see are hints that Kylo isn't quite living up to his potential as a truly evil guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, Bayesian said: Throughout TLJ, all I see are hints that Kylo isn't quite living up to his potential as a truly evil guy. That's right: until the end of the film, where he does. Ii2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayesian 1,363 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, Chen G. said: Either way, the point is that he ends the film a villain. That he aims to "destroy her, and you, and everything", that Luke "can't save him" (as he later admits to Kylo himself), that Rey shuts the door on their Force-connection - everything points to that. I think its one of the main fan expectations Johnson aimed to subvert, and for one I'm all for it. I think its very faithful to the closing act of The Force Awakens. My thinking is, while Luke said that he can't save him, that doesn't rule out someone else or even Kylo himself from saving him. At the end of TLJ, Kylo is the villain, yes, but not irredeemably so. All his declarative statements about destruction are just words (possibly spoken to convince himself, since no one else seems to buy it). Right up to the end of TLJ, Kylo is portrayed as a loose cannon without much in the way of a track record of success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balahkay 627 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 What I want to know is if the Emperor has been around this whole time, then what was the point of Snoke? Was Snoke actually the Emperor all along? He seemed to be quite powerful...moreso than the Emperor in some instances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, Balahkay said: What I want to know is if the Emperor has been around this whole time I don't think he was. It seems an overly-eager reported just about forced Kathleen Kennedy into saying this as she was walking away. It wasn't beyond George Lucas to resort to outright forgery to pretend that he had the Star Wars series figured out, and while Kennedy has generally been more frank on the matter, I wouldn't put misinforming the fans below her. 5 minutes ago, Balahkay said: What I want to know is if the Emperor has been around this whole time I don't think he was. It seems an overly-eager reported just about forced Kathleen Kennedy into saying this as she was walking away. It wasn't beyond George Lucas to resort to outright forgery to pretend that he had the Star Wars series figured out, and while Kennedy has generally been more frank on the matter, I wouldn't put misinforming the fans below her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 . Bilbo and Demodex 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 It still seems odd to me that people think Vader can be redeemed but Kylo can't. Bayesian and Holko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 You can't kill Hans Solo and get away with it! Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 4 hours ago, Demodex said: It still seems odd to me that people think Vader can be redeemed but Kylo can't. Yes! Vader killed many Jedi, even YOUNGLINGS, and he was still redeemed in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 . Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 13 hours ago, Chen G. said: @Arpy In my mind, the moment where Kylo decides to kill Han is where his internal conflict ends. He was conflicted prior to that moment, but after that point, he became evil, and rightly so: even Vader couldn't bring himself to kill his son, but Kylo did kill his father. That was, for me, the moment where the sequel triogy started forge its own path, and I think Johnson went with it, showing Ben going to kill his uncle, and failing not because of his hesitation but because his uncle was an astral projection. Its not established whether he knows his mother survived or not, but at the end of The Last Jedi he orders her base be occupied with "no quarter". Usually, I can relate to and even like opinions other than my own, but in this case I just can't. I think its morally reprehensible to even contemplate the idea of Kylo Ren being redeemed. We go into The Last Jedi seeing how conflicted he is, so it's clearly not as straightforward after killing Han. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 10 hours ago, Modest Expectations said: By ROTJ Vader killed one or 2 rebel pilots, that one rebel he tossed at a wall, and two imperial officers. He didn't even really kill Luke's father! It also cannot be said that he killed Obi-wan. Obi-wan just disappeared at will on his own. There was no Tusken raider massacre, no youngling massacre, and he definitely was not a super-killer of Jedi as implied by prequel-era EU. This. Plus, in terms of characters we know and care about, Vader only killed Obi Wan. Kylo killed Han Solo, one of the central characters of the series, and would have killed Luke Skywalker had he not been an astral projection. For him to be redeemed is preposterous. toothless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,481 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 So I finally understood everything. We already know that Anakin is the creation of Plagueis AND Sidious. What we have to understand now, it’s that he was not the Chosen One. No no... Rey, is the Chosen One (so her lineage is not important, we got the real answer in TLJ!) She was litterally chosen, rewatch TFA and TLJ. She had visions of the past about Luke and Kylo Ren, even the sacred Jedi texts are calling to her. Snoke is a nobody, but he found the black diamond containing Palpatine’s essence. From this time his goal, like Palpatine before him, was to make sure that a Skywalker stays on the Dark Side, because it’s The Sith ultimate weapon. Oh Leia had a child? What a perfect target! Then we know that, like Obiwan who was unable to kill Anakin, Luke was unable to kill Ben. That’s history repeating. Very nice! I don’t know how they’ll manage to kill Leia, but she’ll die, lefting Ben the last living Skywalker. So the last step for Ben to reach the ultimate power is to find that Black diamond, containing Palpatine’s essence and teachings. But Rey we’ll also be on the quest... and so Finn, Poe and Chewie ( thanks to threepio sacrifice). The black diamond will be destroyed. And now, the end of the movie? Well, the ascension of the last Skywalker: Ben Skywalker!!! Who’ll finally meet his grandfather... Yes, The movie will end with a cameo by Hayden Christensen. Tadam! Arpy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 . Demodex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fargo 297 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Bespin said: We already know that Anakin is the creation of Plagueis AND Sidious. What? 2 hours ago, Bespin said: Snoke is a nobody, but he found the black diamond containing Palpatine’s essence. What again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,481 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 About Anakin, we already had our theories, but you didn’t saw the cartoon? Pieter Boelen 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fargo 297 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 I see nothing about Plagueis in that picture, unless it's maze-face. And no, I don't read the comics. Plot in the Star Wars movies should not be dependent on the comics. Or video games. Or any such nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Bespin said: About Anakin, we already had our theories, but you didn’t saw the cartoon? You don't need a cartoon for that thing: its in the bloody screenplay to Revenge of the Sith! I think its a stupid idea. But then, its not as stupid as Kylo Ren being redeemed. Both seem to be runner-ups for many people in this film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,481 Posted November 5, 2019 Share Posted November 5, 2019 Well, Anakin being the ultimate weapon "artificially" created by Plagueis and Sidious is not stupid, that's the foundation of the 9 movies... And we got enough hints in the prequels, you can't really say it's a surprise. Totally, Master Yoda... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,892 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 I don't think any comic books should ever be considered canon. Comics tend to be where the threads of stories untangle and turn to shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Mr. Big 4,639 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said: I don't think any comic books should ever be considered canon. Comics tend to be where the threads of stories untangle and turn to shit. Agreed. The same goes for books and video games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 12 hours ago, Modest Expectations said: Oh no. Mattris controls Bespin! This makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Wojo 2,453 Posted November 6, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 6, 2019 14 hours ago, Bespin said: Rey, is the Chosen One (so her lineage is not important, we got the real answer in TLJ!) She was litterally chosen, rewatch TFA and TLJ. She had visions of the past about Luke and Kylo Ren, even the sacred Jedi texts are calling to her. Rey... Chen G., Ii2 and Remco 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 4 hours ago, Manakin Skywalker said: I don't think any comic books should ever be considered canon. Comics tend to be where the threads of stories untangle and turn to shit. 1 hour ago, Not Mr. Big said: Agreed. The same goes for books and video games. Disney and Lucasfilm disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 The EU has never been canon. Astro_Boy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 Um, mind your politics @Thekthithm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 Apparently Australia isn't even a country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 4 hours ago, Thekthithm said: The EU has never been canon. Yes, it was. As long as it didn't contradict the films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 37 minutes ago, Demodex said: Yes, it was. As long as it didn't contradict the films. No, it was B-canon. It existed only in its own parallel continuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 Fans of the EU considered it canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 They were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 No, they weren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 Yes, they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 We'll that's your opinion, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 It's actually fact! https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Canon_policy?useskin=oasis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Stu 15,495 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 4 minutes ago, Thekthithm said: It's actually fact! https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Canon_policy?useskin=oasis The key quote for those who don't wanna scan through there: Quote Although George Lucas permitted the Expanded Universe to run parallel to his personal Star Wars creations, he never considered its stories to be part of his official canon. As explained by Pablo Hidalgo in the 2012 The Essential Reader's Companion, "Though these [Expanded Universe] stories may get his stamp of approval, they don't enter his canon unless they are depicted cinematically in one of his projects. That said, unless something occurs in a canon project to directly contradict a published source, it can reliably be said to have occurred." Unlucky Bastard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 Ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 Haw haw haw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chen G. 3,949 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Demodex said: Fans of the EU considered it canon. That's the spirit! Compile your own canon from what's out there, according to your liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demodex 557 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 Not saying I cared either way, but the fans I knew that were all into the books and shit considered it canon. I assumed it was because I hadn't heard otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,511 Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manakin Skywalker 4,892 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 On 10/31/2019 at 10:34 AM, Tom said: To be fair, Abrams is allowed to pull a Johnson. As long as he's not allowed to pull out his Johnson... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpy 4,145 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 16 hours ago, Disco Stu said: The key quote for those who don't wanna scan through there: That last part = anything in the EU that doesn't contradict canon is technically canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Mara Jade never existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Bastard 7,782 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 38 minutes ago, Arpy said: That last part = anything in the EU that doesn't contradict canon is technically canon. What does that even mean? What if some obscure EU novel has one chapter that contradicts a movie, but the rest of that novel doesn't? Is the whole novel non-canon or just that chapter? And what if that novel is important continuity-wise to a series of other novels? Must it be ignored in the context of that novel series if it has one bit that contradicts a movie? Chen G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 Shadows of the Empire has to be canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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