The Rise of Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, Jost1 said:

The TLJ retconning sucked in this movie.  

 

They didnt have to do it, thats my problem with it. The film would still basically be the same.

[Smaug The Iron 512]

10 hours ago, Romão said:

 

Actually, yeah

Is Parade of the Ewoks heard when we see the Ewoks?

[Score 770]

2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

I largely enjoyed this film, even though almost none of it actually makes any sense. 

Its big, its incredibly referential to what came before in a way that is both clever and incredibly limiting.

 

Exactly my thoughts (including the rest of your review). At the end, it's enjoyable, in part because it literally assaults your attention on the first viewing. There are so many things happening in the span of few seconds, that you are entertained just by the fact that you try to keep track of everything. But then, if one thinks a moment about the story... it's total nonsense!

 

I was particularly surprised by the extremely limited and basic-level treatment of the secondary characters and the secondary story lines. The secondary characters include a few new ones (Zorii Bliss, Jannah, and the First Order general who is loyal to Palpatine), some who were in the previous two movies (Rose, Maz Kanata, and some other irrelevant ones) but have zero role in this one, and Lando. There was absolutely no reason to bring back Lando for just 2 minutes (I estimate) of screen time and three or four lines. All the new characters only have a few lines and few minutes or seconds of screen time. Palpatine is back just because it is written in the title crawl, and there is no explanation of where he got his fleet and army from (including star destroyers that can wipe out a planet with a single cannon). The huge good-guys fleet arrives in full force at the right moment just because Lando and Chewie asked nicely to "good friends". And when this happens, one doesn't feel anything, because it's an inexplicable army that appears from nothing, just to defeat another inexplicable army that had also appeared from nothing. Stuff like the interest of Rose for Finn and of Finn for Rey is totally wiped out.

 

The only thing that works dramatically is the dynamics between Rey and Kylo. I think their acting was especially remarkable, and I hope to see Daisy soon in other, more rewarding roles. And fortunately, we got a very good score by John Williams, with many highlights. I will apply the good old strategy that I already used with the prequels: listen to the scores, forget the movies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Smaug the iron said:

Is Parade of the Ewoks heard when we see the Ewoks?

 

No. In the span of a couple of seconds, there would not be enough time!

[rough cut 1,714]

The whole SQ would have benefited had it been without Rian’s contribution in TLJ.

 

I think that TLJ is flawed in itself, but It becomes apparent how disjointed it now sits in “the Skywalker saga” when looking at the first hour of TROS in terms of storytelling. A lot of character development and plot points had to be rushed in the first hour, due to poor decisions made in TLJ.

 

I honestly had a hard time getting into TROS for the first half of the movie, all that jumping around between locations and forced exposition.

 

After that first hour of “intro” (that kind of felt like an hour worth of “previously on Star Wars...” as in a any run-of-the-mill TV show - except that we hadn’t seen it before), it became more natural in its storytelling, and more easy to enjoy.

 

Imagine how TLJ could have been, if it’d been allowed to focus on telling a story built around character development instead of just “subverting expectations” - actually good?

 

And imagine how TROS could have been, if it had had a predecessor that actually set up a story that would pay off in its intended sequel - better?

 

The answer to both questions, is “yes”.

[Romão 2,274]

One thing that really bothers me in this movie is the absolute lack of mood in any of the locales. Again, nothing is given room to breathe, to soak in. JJ did that so well with Jakku on TFA

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

We do get a lot more locales this time, and they look more alien-like.

[Score 770]

50 minutes ago, rough cut said:

The whole SQ would have benefited had it been without Rian’s contribution in TLJ.

 

I think that TLJ is flawed in itself, but It becomes apparent how disjointed it now sits in “the Skywalker saga” when looking at the first hour of TROS in terms of storytelling. A lot of character development and plot points had to be rushed in the first hour, due to poor decisions made in TLJ.

 

I honestly had a hard time getting into TROS for the first half of the movie, all that jumping around between locations and forced exposition.

 

After that first hour of “intro” (that kind of felt like an hour worth of “previously on Star Wars...” as in a any run-of-the-mill TV show - except that we hadn’t seen it before), it became more natural in its storytelling, and more easy to enjoy.

 

Imagine how TLJ could have been, if it’d been allowed to focus on telling a story built around character development instead of just “subverting expectations” - actually good?

 

And imagine how TROS could have been, if it had had a predecessor that actually set up a story that would pay off in its intended sequel - better?

 

The answer to both questions, is “yes”.

 

 

From the way things were handled in ep.9, I felt as if JJ had (at least in general terms) a story in his mind from the beginning, when he was involved with TFA. Then, what Rian Johnson did fell totally out of that line and it was not possible to bring the story on JJ's track again in a convincing way... and this is the best he could do to save his original intention. I wonder what it could have been if the directors had at least agreed on collaborating for the sake of the story. Imagine if TLJ, instead of the useless and time-consuming Canto Bight sequence, had included a convincing build-up to the Emperor's coming back (which could have been revealed in full at the end of the movie, to leave a big cliffhanger for ep.9, instead of the broomstick thing). Of course, this wasn't done, and then JJ had to start with the Emperor "already being there", otherwise there wouldn't have been enough time to develop the story. The alternative was to go along the line set by RJ, which JJ evidently didn't like. As it is, the trilogy as a whole looks like the work of directors who had totally opposite views, and could not find a way to reconcile them.

 

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 hour ago, rough cut said:

I think that TLJ is flawed in itself, but It becomes apparent how disjointed it now sits in “the Skywalker saga” when looking at the first hour of TROS in terms of storytelling. A lot of character development and plot points had to be rushed in the first hour, due to poor decisions made in TLJ.

 

This is an incorrect way of thinking. 

So instead of going forward where TLJ left off, Lucasfilm and JJ made the decision that they needed to steer it in another direction, the film obviously suffers from it, and it's still Rian Johnson's fault?

 

TLJ is still the film with the most character development for all the new characters. TROS does nothing with Finn and Poe in this regard.

 

4 minutes ago, Score said:

Then, what Rian Johnson did fell totally out of that line and it was not possible to bring the story on JJ's track again in a convincing way... and this is the best he could do to save his original intention.

 

Nonsense.

 

JJ wasnt the original writer or director for Ep 9. It was his choice to take over after the original writer/director was sacked, and create a film that didnt follow through on where TLJ left the characters.

 

Again, blame JJ for this, not Rian Johnson. Who made a film which right now rates higher than TROS.

[rough cut 1,714]

1 minute ago, Stefancos said:

...and it's still Rian Johnson's fault?

 

Yes.

[Romão 2,274]

2 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

We do get a lot more locales this time, and they look more alien-like.

 

Yes, but again, they are not given time to soak in, to breathe. I remember when the first full trailer for TFA came out, how taken I was by that shot of the Star Destroyer buried in the sand. It conveyed a mood. This one just moves too fast

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yes. Absolutely.

 

The film moves from scene to scene, plot point to plot point, location to location with break-neck speed.

 

I'm actually amazed how the film does managed to keep its focus on our main characters as well as it does with so much stuff going on.

3 minutes ago, rough cut said:

 

Yes.

 

Why?

 

@Jay

 

Yes, it actually does. JJ is actually pretty good in this sorta thing. He takes from he needs from another person's work and uses it for his own story.

 

The Rey/Ben relationship is very much a continuation from TLJ and it works.

 

Other parts are blatantly retconned.

[Jay 37,337]

Cool, thanks

[gkgyver 1,645]

I've been invited to this movie, but really really don't want to go. 

[rough cut 1,714]

I think that TLJ is bad on its own, and also in context with the rest of the Star Wars movies, because it is lacking:

in tone

in plot

in treatment of character development

in respecting the legacy

in myth building

in incorporating out-of-place SJW-themes

in setting up interesting archs for future movies

 

And I think that TROS, as well as the Star Wars universe as a whole, suffers from

it.

 

But I also think that TROS could’ve been a better movie on its own. In the end, there are some things left a little bit too untidy for my taste. But those things considered, I still think TRIS is good movie, whereas I’d put TLJ as the worst SW movie, even worse than any of the prequels (but maybe it’s on par with the spin offs... ugh, who has time to really sit down and think about these things).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You do.... apparently.

 

7 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

I've been invited to this movie, but really really don't want to go. 

 

I thought of you when this film ended, and it made he happy!

[Bilbo 3,709]

Really wasn’t expecting JJ to include a direct quote from Revenge of the Sith .

 

Also, Hayden seems to have a lot of lines. Everyone has more than one line. I loved that bit, it was the only but that really felt like the end of a 9 film saga.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

Really wasn’t expecting JJ to include a direct quote from Revenge of the Sith .

 

Again, this is exactly what JJ does. Take something someone else has created, and use it for his own story.

 

Thats why every film JJ has directed is based in pre-existing IP.

[Jay 37,337]

Super 8 was not based on pre-existing IP.

[Bilbo 3,709]

3 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Again, this is exactly what JJ does. Take something someone else has created, and use it for his own story.

 

Thats why every film JJ has directed is based in pre-existing IP.

yeah but he seems to have a real aversion to the prequels. Him quoting pre-existing material wasn’t surprising. Him quoting Revenge of the Sith was! I’m glad he did though. 

[Kasey Kockroach 2,344]

17 minutes ago, Jay said:

Super 8 was not based on pre-existing IP.

No, just rips off one. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

19 minutes ago, Jay said:

Super 8 was not based on pre-existing IP.

 

It was heavily inspired by Spielberg's Amblin films of the 70's and 80's.

 

That was actually the films selling point.

[Bespin 8,480]

16 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

When Kylo touched Rey's stomach to resurrect her, I bet he put a force baby inside her and that's the next trilogy. 

 

Your theory is very interesting much more than you originally though, as JJ is maybe trying to show us how Anakin was created.

 

Imagine a desperate Plagueis trying to resurrect a dying Shmi...

 

I love that idea of history repeating and it seems I’m not the only one...

 

The end is the begining, it’s a full circle.

[publicist 4,643]

29 minutes ago, Jay said:

Super 8 was not based on pre-existing IP.

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Exactly!

[Score 770]

2 hours ago, Stefancos said:

Nonsense.

 

JJ wasnt the original writer or director for Ep 9. It was his choice to take over after the original writer/director was sacked, and create a film that didnt follow through on where TLJ left the characters.

 

Again, blame JJ for this, not Rian Johnson. Who made a film which right now rates higher than TROS.

 

 

I didn't blame Rian Johnson. Actually, I am not particularly negative about TLJ. I blame the fact that the directors did not find an agreement on the general arc of the story to be told in the trilogy. To use the words of a well-known poster of these forums, they "lacked an overarching plan". I think this is undeniable. 

 

The fault is on both of them. JJ didn't follow RJ's character development in TROS, but RJ didn't follow JJ's character development in TLJ.

[Bespin 8,480]

17 hours ago, leeallen01 said:

When Kylo touched Rey's stomach to resurrect her, I bet he put a force baby inside her and that's the next trilogy. 

  

46 minutes ago, Bespin said:

 

Your theory is very interesting much more than you originally though, as JJ is maybe trying to show us how Anakin was created.

 

Imagine a desperate Plagueis trying to resurrect a dying Shmi...

 

I love that idea of history repeating and it seems I’m not the only one...

 

The end is the begining, it’s a full circle.

 

Seriously, do I win a prize for solving the mystery of the Skywalker Saga? 

[publicist 4,643]

2 minutes ago, Score said:

To use the words of a well-known poster of these forums, they "lacked an overarching plan". I think this is undeniable. 

 

It's somehow comforting that even multi-billion $ world-spanning mega companies don't get their shit together.

 

Though reading so many middle-aged men here and elsewhere still wasting bandwidth with their numerous (and never-ending) complaints about what are essentially movies for 10 year olds is less so.

[Chen G. 3,948]

9 minutes ago, Score said:

To use the words of a well-known poster of these forums, they "lacked an overarching plan". I think this is undeniable. 

 

But George Lucas did the same with the classic trilogy. Why is it okay there, and wrong here?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

6 minutes ago, Score said:

but RJ didn't follow JJ's character development in TLJ.

 

He actually did. 

 

All the characters start in TLJ where JJ left them, and throughout the film Rian takes them through an arc.

 

Finn: wakes up still being all about finding Rey and running away from the First Order, eventually becomes an actual Resistance member.

 

Poe: starts off as the gung-ho man of action he was in TFA, ends up knowing its important to know what the priorities are to keep The Resistance going.

 

Rey: starts out where she left off on TFA, literally. Tries the bring Luke back to Leia, but circumstances mean she has to come to terms with The Force and her link with Kylo Ren.

 

Kylo Ren: starts out as a ardent believer of Snoke, but finds through his connection with Rey that he is more.

 

The starting point of all characters is fine. People just didn't like where Rian took them.

 

I did.

[Balahkay 627]

1 hour ago, rough cut said:

I think that TLJ is bad on its own, and also in context with the rest of the Star Wars movies, because it is lacking:

in tone

in plot

in treatment of character development

in respecting the legacy

in myth building

in incorporating out-of-place SJW-themes

in setting up interesting archs for future movies

 

And I think that TROS, as well as the Star Wars universe as a whole, suffers from

it.

 

 

I agree with this.  I would also like to add that TLJ introduced new characters that ultimately have no significance in ST aside from maybe Holdo who killed herself to save the Resistance.  DJ apparently died, Rose has been reduced to a cameo role... and the broom boy with force powers at the end?  I don't hate TLJ, but it hasn't acted as a good bridge between TFA and ROTS.

[Jay 37,337]

The fact that new force-sensitive people were popping up at the end of TLJ isn't referenced at all in TROS?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Just now, Jay said:

The fact that new force-sensitive people were popping up at the end of TLJ isn't referenced at all in TROS?

 

It actually is.

 

Finn is suddenly Force Sensitive.

[Score 770]

14 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

The starting point of all characters is fine. People just didn't like where Rian took them.

 

I did.

 

Ok (and to be honest, I also like several of those developments), but it is quite evident that JJ belongs to those who didn't like where the characters were taken by RJ. Or maybe, not so much "where", but "how". This was one of the problems that should have been solved in some way, maybe by the producer. When a director is hired for the next installment in a series, some minimal continuity of ideas should be ensured. But apart from all this, I found that the major flaw of TROS is that there is too much stuff just thrown and mixed inside the bowl, with not enough preparation and context. This is independent of anything that RJ had done. I was just wondering that maybe, given what happened, if the trilogy had instead been done by the same director (not necessarily JJ - maybe RJ?), we would now have a product of higher value (see LOTR). 

 

But anyway, my major interest in the SW movies lies in John Williams' scores, I have long passed the age when I cared much about the story. And I have to say that TROS is my favourite score of the new trilogy, so I'm very happy about that. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

But George Lucas did the same with the classic trilogy. Why is it okay there, and wrong here?

 

Right, but in that case it was not as bad as to lead to conflicting situations between the movies of the trilogy. 

 

[Holko 9,516]

4 minutes ago, Score said:

This was one of the problems that should have been solved in some way, maybe by the producer.

Now we're getting somewhere.

I guess after Trevorrov was axed everyone was just happy to get any movie out in time. Should have delayed it like TLJ but for a wholly different reason: sit down with many many good people and figure it out.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Good point. For all sorts of reasons, TROS was a film that's been completely restructured and produced in a very short time.

 

It shows.

[publicist 4,643]

Why an experienced producer of Hollywood blockbusters like Kennedy so completely let go of the horses in such a crucial situation (of having to produce three huge movies within a 4-5 year timespan) is a complete mystery. While most of the *fan* reaction to Part 2 is inane, toxic bullshit it's a simple fact that giving these guys free reign instead of a clearly delineated plan invited fuck up's. 

[Romão 2,274]

Looking back on TFA, it's quite clear to me now that JJ's close adherence to ANH actually worked in its favor in restraining JJ's worst tendencies as a director, specially in the first half. Those scenes showing Rey's routine are so quiet, take their time, convey mood, sense of place. In fact those first 40 minutes are actually quite efficient in establishing all the major characters. It's never about plot. They completely missed that with this one. And I can also see a common thread between this and Batman V Superman, specially in the final act

[Chen G. 3,948]

10 minutes ago, publicist said:

it's a simple fact that giving these guys free reign instead of a clearly delineated plan invited fuck up's. 

 

Most Hollywood trilogies were/are produced that way.

 

The concept of going into a trilogy with a premediated plan is a new trend. Maybe the sequel trilogy should have caught up with the times, but I can't blame it too much for that when that's exactly with the classic trilogy did.

 

Personally, I would have loved for them to have shot all three films at the same time. But they didn't and I have to judge the film for what they are.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hmmm....a producer putting her faith in a bunch of talented writers/directors rather than micro-managing everything to avoid risks is a bad thing, according to @publicist. 

Just now, Chen G. said:

 

Most Hollywood trilogies were/are produced that way.

 

The concept of going into a trilogy with a premediated plan is a new trend. Maybe the sequel trilogy should have caught up with the times, but I can't blame it too much for that when that's exactly with the classic trilogy did.

 

I guess PJ's LOTR was the first one? And there's still some comments you can make about those films structurally.

 

For instance why is half of the book TTT in the film ROTK for instance?

 

I doubt you can pre-plan your way though something like this. 

[publicist 4,643]

I'm not talking about *my* preference but a game plan for a multi-million $ franchise.

 

Of course I would have gladly handed it over to some guys high on Oxycodon just to annoy freaks like Mattriss.

[Pellaeon 593]

9 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I guess PJ's LOTR was the first one?

 

Well, there was The Three Musketeers / The Four Musketeers (1973 / 1974), but that was really the case of a long movie being split into two.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And not a trilogy.

 

BTTF 2 and 3 were done as one long production too. 

[Jay 37,337]

It's happened more often than you think, actually!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-to-back_film_production#Examples

[publicist 4,643]

Because it makes sense. Having different directors work on one franchise with carte blanche just sounds like a bad idea, offhand.

[crocodile 7,999]

1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

 

He actually did. 

 

All the characters start in TLJ where JJ left them, and throughout the film Rian takes them through an arc.

 

Finn: wakes up still being all about finding Rey and running away from the First Order, eventually becomes an actual Resistance member.

 

Poe: starts off as the gung-ho man of action he was in TFA, ends up knowing its important to know what the priorities are to keep The Resistance going.

 

Rey: starts out where she left off on TFA, literally. Tries the bring Luke back to Leia, but circumstances mean she has to come to terms with The Force and her link with Kylo Ren.

 

Kylo Ren: starts out as a ardent believer of Snoke, but finds through his connection with Rey that he is more.

 

The starting point of all characters is fine. People just didn't like where Rian took them.

 

I did.

Yeah, if there is one thing TLJ did very well is character development. The story comes second. Here it is the exact opposite.

 

Don't forget about Luke in denial finally accepting his place in this galaxy history. The common theme of this film is failure and how you respond to it. Kylo couldn't wipe out the guilt after murdering Han, Rey couldn't find a parent figure, Poe was recklessly responsible for obliterating the First Order and Finn had to stop running. And Luke I don't have to explain as even Yoda literally states it in the film.

 

Karol

[Chen G. 3,948]

21 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I guess PJ's LOTR was the first one? And there's still some comments you can make about those films structurally.

 

Yeah, it really did change the way franchises were being handled. Its not just that continuity became much more beholden to, but that film trilogies suddenly had to be stylistically of-a-piece. If there was a detectable change in directorial style, filmgoers will have picked up on it and cry out, in a way that they clearly didn't when Star Wars moved from George Lucas' style of directing to Kershner's, which is very different.

 

The MCU has picked up on the need for stylistic uniformity big time, although its done so by means of flattening the whole series to the lowest common denominator: a bland style is a bland style, and so one entry cannot be stylistically distinguished from the others. In that regard, I much prefer the way the Star Wars sequel trilogy did let the filmmakers do their own things. They were at the very least aiming for the highest common denominator.

 

Also, in terms of fabula (the in-movie timeline), a sequel could now pick up in the immediate aftermath of its predecessor: there's a reason Star Wars films (within the original sextet) were always set some time apart from one another. Whereas, technically, within both The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, each entry in the trilogy picked up the plot within hours of the end of the previous film, at the most. The Last Jedi was very Lord of the Rings, in that way.

 

Stuff like the Back to the Future or Pirates of the Caribbean sequels is a bit different because the "establishing" film was either shot with no concrete sequel storyline, or potentially without a concrete prospect for a sequel, at all. Lucas actually wanted to do all three prequels back-to-back, but he was too lazy a writer to produce three scripts in time and handle the mammoth shoot.

[Pellaeon 593]

All this reminds me of how last year there was speculation that Ep.IX would be split into two movies (like Harry Potter, etc.). I was actually rooting for this, because I couldn’t (and can’t) imagine the pacing of Ep.IX otherwise being any good.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They should have just taken another year. 

[publicist 4,643]

At least it's over now.

[Chen G. 3,948]

Yeah.

 

I mean, at least until Kathleen Kennedy goes "well, George Lucas originally intended for there to be twelve films" (which is technically true) and embarks on a fourth "Skywalker" trilogy. But I sure won't be watching that.