The Rise of Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

[oierem 151]

1 hour ago, Tydirium said:

Exactly what was the point of this trilogy, plot-wise? The galaxy is in virtually the same state it was in at the end of ROTJ, except a different character is now getting to take all the credit going forward. This trilogy doesn't add to the PT or OT; it was not needed in the least. 

 

This trilogy is literally a new version of the OT. Obviously, it adds nothing new to the first six, and undermines the contribution of the OT (while it ignores the PT). So, in a way, the ST exists on its own, as a spin-off of sorts.

 

The PT is the story of how a democratic and peaceful republic turns into an evil militaristic Empire, and how a good "chosen" boy turns to evil.

The OT is the story of how a group of freedom fighters wins against the evil Empire, and how the son of "the chosen one" redeems his father and brings him back to goodness.

 

The ST is the story of how a new group of freedom fighters wins agains the succesor of the evil Empire, and how a "new chosen one" redeems a new boy turned evil. 

[leeallen01 2,133]

J.J literally just put prequel memes into this movie.

 

Palpatine said "DEW IT!" and he word for word repeated "The dark side is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural."

 

He thought that doing all that was the ultimate fan-service. Real fan service is giving us a well-written story.

[Arpy 4,145]

Anyone else think the Knights of Ren's arrival on Pasana was like some music video shot? Thought they were going to start playing their weapons like guitars.

[Score 770]

1 hour ago, oierem said:

 

The difference being that Papatine was frequently mentioned in Empire (and shown in one scene), establishing him as the "ultimate bad guy", so his appearance in ROJ didn't come out of nowhere (and besides, he was always the guy in charge of the Empire). In the ST, the First Order existed without Palpatine for two movies, and then, out of literally nowhere, Palpatine is back and in charge again (just imagine if they haden't announced Palpatine's return, and we found out about it reading the opening crawl.... it would feel cheap and lame. The only reason it kinda works is because they let us know about it months in advance, so we could get used to it!)

 

When I saw that trailer about the return of Palpatine, I said to myself: "This is the kind of stuff that would have constituted a big reveal inside one of the movies. Why are they giving it away in the trailer??". And that's the reason: so they could avoid building up to that return. It feels as if they have realized too late that there wouldn't be enough time to tell the whole story that JJ had in mind within the space of one movie, so they cut away as much as possible. This brings us back to the main problem of the ST, namely, there wasn't a clear direction for the complete story to which both directors agreed. Otherwise, the buildup to Palpatine's return could have been done in the two previous entries. Or, alternatively, JJ could have dropped the idea, since it had not been prepared in the previous movies. 

 

I see an analogy with the end of Game of Thrones. In both cases, long stories that required many movies and many years of work were hastily wrapped up at the end, just because the creators either didn't know from the beginning, or didn't agree along the making, on how the story would end. 

 

   

 

[Chen G. 3,944]

11 minutes ago, Score said:

This brings us back to the main problem of the ST, namely, there wasn't a clear direction for the complete story to which both directors agreed.

 

Its a problem, but its not the main problem.

 

The classic trilogy had the exact same issue, and - to a lesser degree - so did the prequel trilogy.

[Bespin 8,480]

I was the first to think that Sidious may have created Anakin. But I don't think that anymore, after what I learned from TROS. Sidious never reached that power, HE CAN'T LOVE.

 

On this image, where Shmi is already very pregnant (look the size of her belly), Sidious is just trying to turn a baby or a foetus to the dark side.  That's just what this image shows.

Modifier ou supprimer

 

[oierem 151]

10 minutes ago, Score said:

 

When I saw that trailer about the return of Palpatine, I said to myself: "This is the kind of stuff that would have constituted a big reveal inside one of the movies. Why are they giving it away in the trailer??". And that's the reason: so they could avoid building up to that return. It feels as if they have realized too late that there wouldn't be enough time to tell the whole story that JJ had in mind within the space of one movie, so they cut away as much as possible. This brings us back to the main problem of the ST, namely, there wasn't a clear direction for the complete story to which both directors agreed. Otherwise, the buildup to Palpatine's return could have been done in the two previous entries. Or, alternatively, JJ could have dropped the idea, since it had not been prepared in the previous movies.   

 

 

I assume JJ's idea back when they did TFA was to use Snoke as the big bad guy (and redeem Kylo)

What RJ did was a good twist: to kill of Snoke and make Kylo the real big bad guy.

The natural conclusion would be to have Rey kill off Kylo. Instead, they went back to the redemption arc, and that needed a new big bad guy. 

 

I agree that lack of planning was a problem. 

I don't agree that the classic trilogy had the same problem (much less the PT): even though it's true that Lucas was basically making it up as he went, he was the man in charge through the whole trilogy, and it shows in the consistency of it.

[leeallen01 2,133]

Wait a damn second!

 

Why the hell did Kylo try to run Rey over in his tie fighter? I thought he wanted to team up to kill Palpatine? 

 

Did this film read its own script? Haha.

[Bespin 8,480]

Everything was planned from the start.

 

The only problem is that TLJ was too weak. It failed at showing the coming love story of Ben and Rey and didn't prepared us (except musically, thanks to John Williams) that Snoke was related to Palpatine.

 

TLJ needs a director's cut with these two things added:

• A little more passion between Ben and Rey (altough we see there's a real tension between them)
• A hint that Snoke was just a puppet of someone else more powerfull than him, no need to say anything else.
• Ah and remove the iron scene.... and the scene where Chewy tries to eat a Prog, thanks!

[Chen G. 3,944]

14 minutes ago, oierem said:

I assume JJ's idea back when they did TFA was to use Snoke as the big bad guy (and redeem Kylo)

What RJ did was a good twist: to kill of Snoke and make Kylo the real big bad guy. The natural conclusion would be to have Rey kill off Kylo. 

 

I don't know that Abrams had thought so far ahead. Like I said, the one concept that strikes me as something that could have been conjured up while writing The Force Awakens was that of the Force Dyad, and even that's a very rudimentary concept. Its basically a natural extension of the concept of a balance in The Force.

 

14 minutes ago, oierem said:

I agree that lack of planning was a problem. 

I don't agree that the classic trilogy had the same problem (much less the PT): even though it's true that Lucas was basically making it up as he went, he was the man in charge through the whole trilogy, and it shows in the consistency of it.

 

He wasn't in charge of The Empire Strikes Back, Irvin Kershner was, and it shows. That film is just as far removed from Star Wars (in terms of how its directed) as The Last Jedi is from this and The Force Awakens. In terms of story, too, that Vader reveal makes ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING SENSE within the context of Star Wars, and the Leia reveal in the next film makes even less sense.

 

Its not so much that nostalgia blurrs one's vision (even though it does), its that we expect more from contemporary frachise filmmaking in terms of continuity and homogeny, then we did in the 1980s.

[gkgyver 1,645]

1 hour ago, leeallen01 said:

Wow, this makes me want to be physically sick. So Star Wars is just Twilight now, I guess...so sad.

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/boobooben/status/1208047230810251264 

 

It's the twilight years of Star Wars, so yes. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

17 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

He wasn't in charge of The Empire Strikes Back, Irvin Kershner was, and it shows.

 

Lucas was still the writer and the producer. Kershner and him clashed a lot, but that doesn't mean Lucas wasn't in charge.

[leeallen01 2,133]

2005 - Padme's reaction to Anakin being a mass murdering psychopath = "You've broken my heart! You're going down a path I can't follow. Because of what you've done!"

2019 - Rey's reaction to Ben Solo being a mass murdering psychopath = *smiles and kisses him passionately*

#feminism? #progress?

[Chen G. 3,944]

He wrote the treatment and several drafts, but NOT the final shooting script. He wasn’t on-set for the majority of principal photography, and his sad attempt to edit the film his way was REJECTED by Kershner. So much for “in charge”...

 

And, again, at the end of the day - same writer or not - that Vader reveal doesn’t sit with the previous film any better than anything in The Last Jedi or The Rise of Skywalker does.

 

17 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Lucas was still the writer and the producer. Kershner and him clashed a lot, but that doesn't mean Lucas wasn't in charge.

 

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

That kiss was a diabolically bad decision.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

[Bespin 8,480]

@Edmilson FIXED!

 

Here's how the Force made an Improved Skywalker 2.0.

 

This time there will be no Palpatine to fuck his head.

Skywalker Saga CLOSED!

[Tom 4,640]

1 hour ago, leeallen01 said:

2005 - Padme's reaction to Anakin being a mass murdering psychopath = "You've broken my heart! You're going down a path I can't follow. Because of what you've done!"

2019 - Rey's reaction to Ben Solo being a mass murdering psychopath = *smiles and kisses him passionately*

#feminism? #progress?

Not quite true.  Anakin was a mass murdering psychopath in AotC and her response was "To be angry is to be human," whatever that means.  

[Bespin 8,480]

Ah those Skywalkers, girls are crazy about them! 

[Ollie 1,059]

2 hours ago, Bespin said:

Everything was planned from the start.

 

The only problem is that TLJ was too weak. It failed at showing the coming love story of Ben and Rey and didn't prepared us (except musically, thanks to John Williams) that Snoke was related to Palpatine.

 

TLJ needs a director's cut with these two things added:

• A little more passion between Ben and Rey (altough we see there's a real tension between them)
• A hint that Snoke was just a puppet of someone else more powerfull than him, no need to say anything else.
• Ah and remove the iron scene.... and the scene where Chewy tries to eat a Prog, thanks!

 

No Chewie should have went ahead and taken bite out it. 
 

Or maybe Luke actually interacts with his long time friend and tells him they taste bad or something. 

 

What would have been even funnier if the porg had ignited the lightsaber and took out the other one when Luke tossed it.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

After TFA Abrams said in interviews that he didn't plan anything for after his own film and other writer/directors would take the story further.

 

Nothing ive seen in the subsequent films would have me doubt that statement.

 

 

[gkgyver 1,645]

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

 

Its a problem, but its not the main problem.

 

The classic trilogy had the exact same issue, and - to a lesser degree - so did the prequel trilogy.

 

With all due respect, that's nonsense. The OT as well as the PT had George Lucas overseeing everything, and save for things that didn't make sense by themselves, all of those six films, and each trilogy, had a clear cut story arc Lucas knew from beginning to end. 

 

This Disney shite has no overarching story arc, except for it featuring the same characters in all 3 films. 

The 3 films had 2 different directors who didn't give a shit about each other's movie, each film had a different villain, and the only person overseeing everything was that Kennedy skank, who screwed Lucas out of his trilogy idea,  didn't give a crap about any story, and just cared about injecting her little Disney agenda, and tHefOrCeISfEmaLe. 

[leeallen01 2,133]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

Not quite true.  Anakin was a mass murdering psychopath in AotC and her response was "To be angry is to be human," whatever that means.  

 

Yeah but all he killed was dirty sand people. And who cares about dirty sand people? Certainly not us superior humans.

 

#IStandWithTheSandPeople

[gkgyver 1,645]

Kylo Ren most certainly did kill more people than Anakin in AotC. And the sand people killed his mom. It's apples and oranges. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If they kill your mum, its okay to kill them.

 

 

[leeallen01 2,133]

Anakin wasn't even redeemed for me. He just showed that he was not pure evil and he was capable of good. But no way did it redeem him. Hence why no one really forgave him at all. The one good thing he did as Vader was save Luke, that's it. He wasn't redeemed. He just fulfilled the prophecy by ultimately doing something good. But it's not like Padme would have given him a big kiss after he threw Palpy down the shaft.

 

But Rey literally witnessed Ben murdering all her friends and he tortured her himself in TFA. He almost killed Finn and Poe and killed Luke by making him come to everyones aid. But Rey just forgives him and kisses him like she's attracted to him and his mass murdering psychopath personality. It's a bloody terrible message, especially for abuse victims. Yeah girls, if a man tortures you, kills your friends and tries to murder you several times, forgive him and give him a big kiss. Sickening.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Star Wars redemption arcs are indeed a bit....iffy 

[leeallen01 2,133]

And he also murders all of Luke's CHILD students.

 

Great guy, really. Definitely kissable.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Well, people loved Walter White despite him cooking meth and killing people.

 

Its quite weird actually, that we can root for these people in fiction.

[crocodile 7,986]

Watched it the second time today. Why? I booked two showings in advance (before the first viewing). Such are the perks of limitless membership.

 

Anyway, I liked the first half of the film more this time. But by the time they get to the Death Star I start to feel the length. It just becomes really tiresome and flat. The climax of the film is terribly unexciting and it all feels just mechanical like a video game almost. That is because I think the whole thing with the secret mighty fleet is just plain stupid. I like the actors, they try to do their best... but they're wasted.

 

It's not the worst thing I've ever seen but it just feels so clunky and clumsy. Sort of unlike J.J. Abrams really. Most of his previous works were quite polished.

 

Again, paid attention to some really good music left off the album. Now I really need all of it.

 

Karol

[Demodex 557]

I saw it last night. I liked it a lot but a few things bugged me, like I don't know why Rey's saber at the end looks like Maul's and has a yellow blade. 

 

Rey and Kylo having a lightsaber duel while on different planets was stupid, as well as being able to grab the necklace from her. Yeah, I get the rain thing happened in TLJ, but all these things are dumb. 

 

I still don't know what Snoke's relationship with Palpatine was. Did Snoke know Palpatine was still alive?

 

I loved TLJ. I liked most of TROS. 

 

 

[Bespin 8,480]

21 minutes ago, Demodex said:

I still don't know what Snoke's relationship with Palpatine was. Did Snoke know Palpatine was still alive?

 

Quote

Snoke, a Force-sensitive humanoidmale, was a being artificially created by Palpatine who rose to power as Supreme Leader of the First Orderduring the New Republic Era

 

Source: Wookiepedia

 

Another quote from the Bible, for those who still don’t understand the Skywalker Saga:

 

Quote

 As Sidious, he learned all his Master knew about the dark side of the Force, and all the Sith of Darth Bane's lineage had learned about the Force. He was also made aware of Plagueis's discovery of the secret to eternal life: his Master had learned to manipulate the midi-chlorians, and prevent people from dying. Plagueis's obsession with extending his own life eventually passed to Sidious, but he later admitted that he had never been able to learn his Master's secrets. 

 

[oierem 151]

1 hour ago, gkgyver said:

 

The OT as well as the PT had George Lucas overseeing everything, and save for things that didn't make sense by themselves, all of those six films, and each trilogy, had a clear cut story arc Lucas knew from beginning to end. 

 

That's right. It doesn't matter much if it was planned from the beginning or not, what matters is that someone is keeping it more or less consistent.

 

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

And, again, at the end of the day - same writer or not - that Vader reveal doesn’t sit with the previous film any better than anything in The Last Jedi or The Rise of Skywalker does.

 

Vader's reveal is a twist that, although not planned from the beginning, sort of works  with the previous film (Uncle Owen's fears, Ben's doubt...). In any case, the third film goes along with the twist, instead of reverting back. 

The ST sets up a mystery (who were Rey's parents?), does a good twist (they were nobodies) and then reverts back (her father was Palpatine's son). The equivalent in the OT would be to have Obi-Wan say to Luke "Vader lied, actually, I'm your father" in ROTJ.

 

4 hours ago, Chen G. said:

He wrote the treatment and several drafts, but NOT the final shooting script. He wasn’t on-set for the majority of principal photography, and his sad attempt to edit the film his way was REJECTED by Kershner. So much for “in charge”...

 

Who was in charge is debatable (and probably there's not a single answer), but after reading all the material about the making of Empire, I would say that, very clearly, Lucas was ultimately in charge of the film. He wrote the story and the first (actually, second) draft; he story didn't change in the subsequent drafts (which he oversaw, of course). Directorially, Kershner was in charge, of course (although Lucas was on-set for about a third of principal photography). The editing went back and forth between Kershner and Lucas (Kershner couldn't reject anything, since Lucas had the final cut privilege anyway), and it ended up being something they both agreed on. 

Filmmaking is a very complex process, and it's essentially collaborative. Obviously, Kershner had a huge influence on how the film looks (we could say he was in charge of that), but Lucas determined what the movie was about (we could say he was in charge of the story being told). 

And in terms of how the OT works (or doesn't) as a single story, who's in charge of the story is more important.

(Think about Harry Potter: even though each director changed the visual tone of the story, the story could remain consistent (or not!) because one person wrote it all). 

[Demodex 557]

@Bespin:  How did he artificially create Snoke?  What does that mean?

 

And how did Palpatine stay alive if he "admitted that he had never been able to learn his Master's secrets."

 

I wish they had just left Palps dead. 

[crocodile 7,986]

4 hours ago, Demodex said:

@Bespin:  How did he artificially create Snoke?  What does that mean?

Well, you can see several Snokes in a tank at the very start of the film just before Palpatine's reveal.

 

Karol

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Palpatine was behind everything all along! Brilliant!

[leeallen01 2,133]

56 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Well, people loved Walter White despite him cooking meth and killing people.

 

Its quite weird actually, that we can root for these people in fiction.

 

It's not about liking evil characters. That's fine because they aren't real. My point is that within the story itself, when a character loves an evil character. That is screwed up. Rey kissing or even remotely liking Ben is utterly sickening.

[Bespin 8,480]

53 minutes ago, Demodex said:

@Bespin:  How did he artificially create Snoke?  What does that mean?

 

And how did Palpatine stay alive if he "admitted that he had never been able to learn his Master's secrets."

 

I wish they had just left Palps dead. 

 

He admitted it to Anakin in ROTS.

 

What he learned after, I don’t know... But to use clones or to be able to transfer his consciousness into another body, that’s cheating according to me... This is nothing compared to what Plagueis was allegedly able to do...

[leeallen01 2,133]

Finn sure does love murdering his fellow enslaved child soldier stormtroopers...

 

He's cheering and woo-ing and smiling as he brutally explodes and shoots them all to death throughout the entire trilogy. He basically quits being a stormtrooper after seeing his friend die next to him as they murder a village, then 3 minutes later he's smiling and cheering with Poe as they shoot all his fellow stormtroopers... Then in this film he meets the ex-stormtrooper woman who tells him her story of also being enslaved and forced to be a stormtrooper. And so she joins Finn in the final battle as they both seem enjoy murdering their fellow enslaved child soldiers again...

 

Awful storytelling.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

5 hours ago, Bespin said:

@Edmilson FIXED!

 

Here's how the Force made an Improved Skywalker 2.0.

 

This time there will be no Palpatine to fuck his head.

Skywalker Saga CLOSED!

 

Save for the ridiculous last entry, that seems spot on. We have no evidence Palpatine actually used his own DNA to create Anakin. Or fuck his mom.

 

Not related!

[gkgyver 1,645]

The real message of this film is that you can become anybody you fucking want, if you just wait until they're dead. 

[stewdog1 50]

So far JJ has remade three movies. A New Hope, The Wrath of Kahn, and Return of the Jedi. 

 

I'm just hoping one day to have a reboot of the sequel trilogy and get a proper Skywalker story, see Luke actually be a Jedi instead of a homeless man. That's what irks me the most about all of this. How they treated Luke. That's unforgivable. 

[Chen G. 3,944]

4 hours ago, gkgyver said:

The OT as well as the PT had George Lucas overseeing everything, and save for things that didn't make sense by themselves, all of those six films, and each trilogy, had a clear cut story arc Lucas knew from beginning to end. 

 

This Disney shite has no overarching story arc.

 

The prequel trilogy had a story "arc", but only in the broadest of strokes. It didn't stop The Phantom Menace from being Non Sequitor: the Motion Picture in that it does nearly nothing to further the story of the saga. 

 

The classic trilogy had absolutely no story arc at the beginning. Before he wrote in the "I am your father!" moment, the two sequels were going to be standalone adventures, a-la Indiana Jones. There wasn't supposed to be ANY arc.

 

2 hours ago, oierem said:

Vader's reveal is a twist that, although not planned from the beginning, sort of works  with the previous film (Uncle Owen's fears, Ben's doubt...). In any case, the third film goes along with the twist, instead of reverting back. 

 

The Vader twist doesn't sit AT ALL with Star Wars. To say otherwise is to delude oneself.

 

2 hours ago, oierem said:

Who was in charge is debatable (and probably there's not a single answer), but after reading all the material about the making of Empire, I would say that, very clearly, Lucas was ultimately in charge of the film. He wrote the story and the first (actually, second) draft; he story didn't change in the subsequent drafts (which he oversaw, of course). Directorially, Kershner was in charge, of course (although Lucas was on-set for about a third of principal photography). The editing went back and forth between Kershner and Lucas (Kershner couldn't reject anything, since Lucas had the final cut privilege anyway), and it ended up being something they both agreed on. 

 

You're all really underestimating the job of the director. All I can say is that, when I first watched these films and I got to The Empire Strikes Back, it took a while to get used to just how different it was. The way the characters talked, the way the camera was used, the tone - it could not have been more different than Star Wars, and like I said the plot continuity is very creaky, as well.

[King Mark 3,626]

Liked the movie a lot. I didn't feel the various plot twists felt forced or anything. I was surprised I liked the Leia scenes too (not sure how they did that though) .The emperor was back to his menacing old ROTJ self after they failed to portray him properly in Revenge of the Sith.

 

Overall a lot better than I expected

[leeallen01 2,133]

10 minutes ago, King Mark said:

Liked the movie a lot. I didn't feel the various plot twists felt forced or anything. I was surprised I liked the Leia scenes too (not sure how they did that though) .The emperor was back to his menacing old ROTJ self after they failed to portray him properly in Revenge of the Sith.

 

Overall a lot better than I expected

 

 

 

 

[King Mark 3,626]

I'lll take this anytime over Avengers End Game

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Palpatine was awesome in Revenge of the Sith!

[Demodex 557]

3 hours ago, Chen G. said:

The Vader twist doesn't sit AT ALL with Star Wars. To say otherwise is to delude oneself.

 

What are you talking about?  

[Chen G. 3,944]

That, in Star Wars, Vader wasn't meant to be Luke's dad and that this is readily appearant and cannot be denied even as one is watching The Empire Strikes Back's twist go down, even for someone with half a brain.

 

I have heard people say "well, the pause that Ben gives before he goes into the telling of Darth Vader's treachery is telling that there's more to this". No, its not. That's just people's nostalgia talking. In terms of continuity that twist is idiotic, and is as much a piece of shameless revision of a previous film as anything done in The Rise of Skywalker.

 

Luckily, its also among the most potent pieces of drama in the whole of the series, which is more than could be said for anything in The Rise of Skywalker.

[oierem 151]

6 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

That, in Star Wars, Vader wasn't meant to be Luke's dad and that this is readily appearant and cannot be denied even as one is watching The Empire Strikes Back's twist go down, even for someone with half a brain.

 

I like your posts but I don't think it's necessary to post such insulting remarks, tbh...