The Rise of Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I simply avoided Star Wars threads and managed to go in spoiler free

[Jay 37,249]

Exactly

[Edmilson 7,367]

11 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

I simply avoided Star Wars threads and managed to keep my sanity

 

Fixed.

[mstrox 6,637]

I think the expectation would be to go into any thread for a 5-day-old movie not marked "SPOILERS ALLOWED" and not see spoilers, correct?

[Bespin 8,472]

They only have to fix some minor thing to fix this trilogy :

 

- TFA After the death of Han, Chewie can’t pass beside Leia without giving her a little hug, simply just don’t show Chewie so near.

-TLJ remove the Iron scene, remove the Scene where Chewie try to eat a porg, add a scene where Rey can Force-Heal something or someone for showing us she’s able to do that (they’ll can remove the stupid snake healing in TROS), add a hint after Snoke is dead that he may just have been the puppet of someone bigger than him, and of course show the Knights of Ren and add 3PO more dialogue. Ah and don’t make Leia fly in the space like Superman, try any other position.

[rough cut 1,714]

Hey, that’s almost what I said in another thread!

 

On 12/24/2019 at 1:45 PM, rough cut said:

Suggestions for a “JJ cut” of TLJ

 

Simply cutting down the Canto Bight sequence will improve the film, the more left out the better...

 

And maybe create a different opening where Luke doesn’t throw away his lightsaber.

 

And delete the scene where Chewie becomes a vegetarian...

 

...and the “everybody has the force” ending.

 

Edit: Oh, and that stupid Poe-Hux conversation from the beginning of the movie should never have happened the way it did.

 

And if possible, play down the “your parents were nobody” parts...

 

Finally, to help bridge TFA and TROS, put in:

A) anything establishing The Knights Of Ren as badasses, and

B) a hint that the emperor is still lurking about, maybe that recording they put in Fortnite could be heard towards the end.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No no no!

[mstrox 6,637]

Wait, was the Chewie porg scene really detested by people? Man.  Do you guys feel like it was a massive political statement or something?  I don't even think Rian Johnson is a vegetarian.  To me, it was just a gag that read like Chewie had his dinner ruined.

[Bespin 8,472]

That was just not fun. This is "under" for a Star Wars movie. Like the iron scene. Wrong movie for these jokes.

[Smaug The Iron 510]

6 minutes ago, Bespin said:

That was just not fun. This is "under" for a Star Wars movie. Like the iron scene. Wrong movie for these jokes.

Bespin what is wrong with the iron scene?

[mstrox 6,637]

IDK - I grew up with a burping sarlaac and came of age with Jar Jar stepping in Eopie crap.  The TLJ humor works much better for me.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Oh my lord not the porg thing again. You guys need to let it go.

 

TLJ had some problems, but its sense of fun and slightly offbeat humour is not one of them.

[Edmilson 7,367]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

IDK - I grew up with a burping sarlaac and came of age with Jar Jar stepping in Eopie crap.  The TLJ humor works much better for me.

 

I didn't remembered that Sarlaac burped after swallowing Boba Fett, and now I can't stop laughing while watching the video of the scene on YouTube. 

 

Apparently Lucas wasn't just referring to the Ewoks when he said he wanted ROTJ to be more kid friendly.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,488]

3 hours ago, Bespin said:

...try any other position.

Ooh, matron!

[Bespin 8,472]

3 minutes ago, Naïve Old Fart said:

Ooh, matron!

 

There are other positions!

 

 

[gkgyver 1,645]

4 hours ago, Edmilson said:

On this whole Abrams v Johnson (Dawn of Justice) debate, and who is more to blame about what happened, I pretty much agree with this article:

 

 

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2487438/why-it-was-a-mistake-to-bring-back-jj-abrams-for-the-rise-of-skywalker

 

It wasn't a mistake to have Abrams return. It was a mistake to let that moron Rian Johnson direct a Star Wars film in the first place. 

[Bespin 8,472]

There is only one person to blame for this not so coherent trilogy where eveything is closed in the last hour of the last movie: Kathleen Kennedy.

 

Many old EU SW concepts are being told for the very first time in a movie in TROS : the Sith holocrons, The communication between Sith of the past, the clones of the Emperor, What is a force dyad, the healing power of the force, the existence of Leia’s saber.

 

That’s heavy for one movie!

[Edmilson 7,367]

5 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

It wasn't a mistake to have Abrams return. It was a mistake to let that moron Rian Johnson direct a Star Wars film in the first place. 

 

Johnson is a better director and a better screenwriter than Abrams, so no, they weren't wrong when they brought him to the franchise.

 

That said (and with the caveat that TLJ is the only movie of the Disney era that I don't hate) why they let Johnson do whatever he wanted if it contradicted the story they wanted to tell? Maybe because they didn't have a story back then? Only an outline or something? Then, they decided that suddenly it was all planned? Was so difficult to sit with both Abrams and Johnson, establish the outline of the main story of the trilogy and say: "You can do what you want on your movie, as long as you follow what we planned".

 

This is how Marvel succeeded. I mean, just imagine if Kevin Feige didn't told Gunn that the main plan for the Infinity Saga was to have Thanos as the final villain all the heroes would have to face. So, on the first Guardians, Drax could've killed Thanos and avenged the death of his family. Then, Feige releases the movie, there's outcry on the internet and he is like "Oh, crap, we murdered our big bad. Quick, someone invent some crappy way of bringing him back, and say that it was all planned!".

 

Abrams is a dumbass. An imbecile. And a hippocrite. On the first movie, he basically did what he have been doing with all his career: establish a franchise, characters and, of course, mystery that would have to be solved, and then handling it over to someone else, while he gets free to produce more crap to enlarge his IMDB profile (just remember Lost, Fringe, several other terrible sci-fi shows that got cancelled, etc). But then, when he disliked what Johnson did, he suddenly returned and did the best he could to ~fix it~.

 

If he cared so much about the development of the saga, why didn't he directed Episode VIII himself? Or at least helped create the script, instead of walking away? That's what the article is talking about.

[Pieter Boelen 740]

5 hours ago, gkgyver said:

 

LOL Jesus Christ

 

They "gave in" by producing a nonsensical, badly paced, bad acted, going nowhere drivel. Because clearly that's what "fanboys" wanted. 

 

This "poor Disney" and "poor Rian Johnson" talk is horrid. Here's a guy who by his own admittance wanted to troll the fans by "giving them less what they want, and more of what we want" (Mark Hamill quote), and his response is "bad bad fans, I intentionally didn't do what you wanted, but fuck you for wanting it". 

Disney outright told fans they weren't welcome, that Star Wars needs to go "beyond" the fandom. 

 

What world exactly do we live in, where companies produce shit, and blame the consumer for rejecting it? Like you have to appreciate and thank mother Disney for making it, no matter how flawed, terrible or agenda ridden it is because that's all you get? 

Sounds like a Russia ca. 100 years ago way of movie making.

Yikes!

If that isn't an overreaction, I don't know what is.

 

You're kind-of reinforcing my point though.

So I suppose thanks are in order...? 

[Bespin 8,472]

I strongly believe the saga ended as Lucas wanted, so I don’t understand what’s « fan service » means.

[gkgyver 1,645]

40 minutes ago, Bespin said:

I strongly believe the saga ended as Lucas wanted, so I don’t understand what’s « fan service » means.

 

It's transpired several times that Lucas was disappointed about the changes to his treatment. And he didn't even attend the premiere to the movie that ended "the saga as he wanted". 

You talk like the guy is dead. He's very much alive and distanced himself as far as he could from this nonsense. 

[Arpy 4,145]

 

So Rian Johnson, taking creative risks in a largely creatively bankrupt franchise is 'trolling the fans'? 

 

The more I watch The Last Jedi, the greater my appreciation grows for the film and Rian Johnson. 

 

The problem is this whole trilogy and saga is essentially trapped in a time capsule - by the filmmakers and the 'fans'. Try something different - you're fucked. Do more of the same shit - you're fucked. Don't read every Star Wars nerd's list of demands - you're doubly fucked. Thus Star Wars can't be new, it can't go anywhere at all.

 

Not only that, but Star Wars - the Original Trilogy has been elevated into the stratosphere, perched on some glorified pedestal when in fact they're films people nit-picked, critics hated, people were disappointed by - the only difference is audiences didn't have the internet back then. 

 

Now, everyone's screaming and shouting to have their opinions heard and it's not giving you clear data as to who's right, who's wrong, who's a troll, who's just an outrage-monger. It's a clusterfuck of opinions.

 

Rian Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, Disney, none of them are directly responsible for the audience's  barbaric, slobbering, entitled, narcissistic, greedy reactions to these films. The 'fans' don't own Star Wars - they own a virtual replica of it in their minds informed by experiences, by nostalgia and by expectations that were never warranted.

 

Everyone wants to point a finger and lay the blame with such ferocity and misguided anger that we've all overlooked the real culprit. We can all agree that there's some of the stankiest bullshit you've ever smelled in this trilogy, awful dialogue, time wasting sequences and characters, all the usual flaws, however they're seriously not worth the vitriol. It's not worth it to pour hatred into something you can't control. 

 

I'm so sick and tired of the Star Sars fandom. I love something about all the films in the saga but I will never associate myself with the fandom ever again, not in today's outrage culture.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

FANISM!

[crumbs 14,287]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

The problem is this whole trilogy and saga is essentially trapped in a time capsule - by the filmmakers and the 'fans'. Try something different - you're fucked. Do more of the same shit - you're fucked. Don't read every Star Wars nerd's list of demands - you're doubly fucked. Thus Star Wars can't be new, it can't go anywhere at all.

 

This. It was the toxic fan outrage over Rian Johnson having the audacity to liberate the series from its own conventions that resulted in TROS being the clusterfuck it is. The fans have no one to blame but themselves.

 

JJ should have doubled down on what Rian was trying to accomplish, rather than appease a toxic minority of fans who will never be happy with the non-Lucas films, period. Instead, he crafted a mess that pleases absolutely nobody. Those who liked TLJ despise the way he walked back everything Rian was trying to say, everyone else sees the film as an unsatisfying mess that introduces way too much, way too late in the game.

 

One specific complaint I'll never understand is Snoke being killed off in TLJ. Rian was clearly trying to prevent Episode IX becoming a rehash of ROTJ, with a Rey/Ben/Snoke confrontation that lazily copied the Luke/Vader/Emperor climax. It was a far more interesting direction to usurp the "big bad" (a blatant clone of the Emperor, now literally a clone -- an apt metaphor for JJ's lazy storytelling) and promote your conflicted baddie to the role before entering the final film. Of all the interesting things they could have done in TROS, JJ chose the most obvious and most lazy of the lot.

[lairdo 726]

I liked TRoS, even more on the 2nd viewing. And I can say so while agreeing with many of the criticisms leveled at it. The most important thing for me was if it was fun to watch, and did I like the JW score. To the first, I am unashamed to say I did like it and will see it a third time this weekend (finally in Imax with laser protection). It has flaws, and I am ambivalent on Rey's ending. I can see the issues with bringing back the emperor. But the movie is fun and I like the characters.

 

I very much doubt though that this is near what George wanted or would have done. It is unlikely in any case because as pointed out, they did not use his treatments. Bob Iger recounts this in his memoir that came out recently too. (and how George was upset.)

 

As to my other question, I love the score. My issue is how to reconcile all of the edits with my love of the score. And since I cannot yet listen to the score as in the film, I guess my focus is on the tracks we have (OST+FYC) and enjoying those.

 

Back to TLJ - I did think that TLJ was a really well directed movie. Rian Johnson has interesting visual ideas, and great pacing in his editing (even if he left in sequences that are too long - they are well edited, but too long - Canto for example). Case in point of that is my strong recommendation to see Knives Out. I've seen it twice too, and even knowing the plot, the 2nd viewing was extremely enjoyable. Like or dislike TLJ, Johnson is a very good filmmaker. (And I liked that score too.)

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

42 minutes ago, crumbs said:

Instead, he crafted a mess that pleases absolutely nobody.

 

...uh

[Matt C 452]

On 12/24/2019 at 10:32 AM, Edmilson said:

If Trevorrow was the director, the movie would've been better?

 

I mean, Jurassic World is not by any means a good movie, but I like it more (and think it's funnier) than TROS. 

 

On the other hand, JWFK's script is laughably bad, and the movie is utter shit. Bayona's directing made it at least watchable, if it wasn't him on the direction I can't even begin to imagine how much shittier the movie could've been. And I haven't watched Book of Henry, but apparently it's awful too.

 

Trevorrow & Connolly's script for Jurassic World rewrote drafts by Rick Jaffa & Amanda Silver, hence the latter got screenwriting credit. You could tell in JW:FK, Trevorrow & Connolly were working by themselves -- the overall quality -- and it showed.

 

I have no idea what Abrams & Terrio used from Trevorrow & Connelly's draft. Maybe the wonky "Rey is Palpatine's granddaughter" bit and the horrible Rey/Ben kiss.

[crumbs 14,287]

43 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

 

...uh

 

As in, the two "warring" factions. Those who loved TLJ and those who just hate everything Disney are doing. Why bother attempting to appease them when they're going to hate it regardless?

[Demodex 557]

5 hours ago, Bespin said:

There is only one person to blame for this not so coherent trilogy where everything is closed in the last hour of the last movie: Kathleen Kennedy.

 

Like Lucas did with ROTJ?  And Jackson in ROTK?  That's pretty much what the last movie is for. 

 

Of the new movies, TLJ is easily my favorite. The other two are fun but predictable. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

While this movie was obviously totally off the rails, I enjoyed it for what it is. I liked it more than the other ones, which I really didn't like at all aside from seeing cameos from the old characters, come to think of it.

 

My favorite character was probably C-3PO because he's in it so much. All the adventure bits in the first half with him along for the ride felt like a live action Droids. He also explains a lot of things in a very Data-like manner. I don't know, it just felt more special having the old goldenrod doing shit.

 

The stuff with Palpatine was extremely weird and honestly not good despite having Ian. For most of the movie, he's a reanimated corpse hooked up to a crane? What the fuck? All that shit about his spirit transferring to Rey if she kills the corpse was too ridiculous. I obviously don't even need to comment on any of this. Anyone who's seen this movie knows it was a bunch of garbage.

 

JJ's style of having people run around and yell wears thin. This movie is a mess, but an entertaining one. There are various cringey bits, an unexplained death of Leia, whose appearances all felt weird and computerized and characters just seeming to die and come back to life constantly. Also, a very awkward rapey exchange between Lando and that young lady at the end. Just throwing that in there because the entire theater seemed to be disturbed by it.

 

I thought having "Ben" turn back from the dark side was a good idea but they didn't do much with it. His whole character in this trilogy has been moody and angry. Rey kissing him inspired a lot of people to clap and at least one chick to say, "Slut!" The appearance of Luke was extremely hammy and the unexplained bizarre cameo by Harrison Ford actually wasn't bad. The movie was off the rails from the start, so I guess it didn't matter that they had him come back out of nowhere.

 

There's obviously a lot to take in on this one, but I'm more positive than negative. 

[Nick Parker 3,040]

Am I the only one who thought the "I know" callback in the Han scene was really emotional and clever? 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It didn't even occur to me until you mentioned it just now.

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Unfortunately I missed the Han scene because I had to duck out and do a pee.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I had to piss a liter of Diet Coke early on and went in between arriving at the alien rave and Lando suddenly appearing.

[Nick Parker 3,040]

It's one of the most emotionally potent scenes in the movie, where it lets its guard down and slows the pace down, and for me that moment I mentioned is the most effective fan service in the whole thing.

2 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

Unfortunately I missed the Han scene because I had to duck out and do a pee.

 

[Arpy 4,145]

9 minutes ago, Nick Parker said:

Am I the only one who thought the "I know" callback in the Han scene was really emotional and clever? 

Yes, I thought 'Oh, god, don't do this...' but by the end I had a tear in my eye - it really flipped a switch in my mind about Kylo/Ben. Both a mirror of the scene from TFA, but a callback to Han's line in ESB. 

 

That's good storytelling.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Better storytelling would have been to not kill Han and have more sympathy for this severely underwritten Ben character. Why is he always so mad?

[Pellaeon 593]

Just saw TRoS. I didn’t hate ANYTHING, which is kind of impressive. Lots of action that strangely never felt tiring. Ultimately I give the edge to TFA thanks to the pacing leading to a more memorable movie.  I’d love to see an extended cut of TRoS. I blame TLJ for these pacing problems because really it wasn’t just that TLJ left TRoS with no plot setup, it’s that TRoS had a lot of work to do to build relationships within the main Rey-Finn-Poe trio, as well as between Rey and Kylo. I knew where that was going to go, but how it got there was very impressive. Mad props to J.J. for expert direction and relentlessly spot-on aesthetics.

 

The main problems with TRoS from my perspective were two. #1, the over-the-top Jedi powers (Rey and Kylo shrugging off falls and explosions, healing??, holding ships with the Force). And #2, it’s hard to feel invested in a movie when it feels like they’re making it up as they go along. Like, when they would reveal something, it wasn’t like, “WHAAAAT,” it was just like “Oh so they decided to go that way with it, okay.” It was fanfic.

 

Oh well, luckily there’s another timeline that works better for me, the Thrawn Trilogy at least is thoughtful and METICULOUSLY plotted.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

3 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

blame TLJ for these pacing problems because really it wasn’t just that TLJ left TRoS with no plot setup,

 

I call bull on that! So is it TESB's fault that ROTJ recycled the Death Star plot from ANH and included teddy bears?

 

TLJ ended with loads to follow up on. A new Resistance that needs to be build, Kylo Ren, as Supreme Leader hunting for Rey.

 

Rian Johnson is not responsible for the mess of TROS.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

He's responsible for the mess of TLJ.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

33 minutes ago, Pellaeon said:

Oh well, luckily there’s another timeline that works better for me, the Thrawn Trilogy at least is thoughtful and METICULOUSLY plotted.

 

I've never read that trilogy, but how does it continue and resolve things after ROTJ?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

They actually put limitations on force powers, unlike the Abrams/Johnson/Abrams trilogy.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

1 hour ago, Pellaeon said:

TRoS had a lot of work to do to build relationships within the main Rey-Finn-Poe trio, as well as between Rey and Kylo. 

 

TLJ did an incredible job building the Rey/Kylo relationship. That’s its biggest strength in fact.

[Demodex 557]

2 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

He's responsible for the genius of TLJ.

 

Fixed. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He was responsible for the okayness of TLJ.

[Alex 2,833]

I’m just angry that Rian Johnson didn’t want to use some of my shitty fan theories for his $200 million movie. The absolute hack. Luke Skywalker is the most badass hero in cinematic history and he cannot have any flaws. When he put an Asian character in his movie, I felt ill, this isn’t MY Star Wars. I had no option but to troll Kelly Marie Tran off social media. George Lucas would have never created Porgs, he created creatures like Ewoks and Jar Jar Binks that would have never been used for cheap laughs.

[KK 3,307]

On 12/19/2019 at 7:24 AM, Romão said:

I'm surprised how great the score turned out, with a movie as scattered a fast cut as this one. There are literally 10 seconds scenes of exposition that interrupt the previous scene.

 

Indeed. Credit goes where credit is due. Williams clearly realized he couldn't keep up with the film's breakneck pace and identity disorder and decided to tie it together with one rousing theme, giving it at least some sort of stamp. Something that TLJ lacked musically.

 

I'm also inclined to consider this the worst of the saga (even if it's a bit of a knee-jerk reaction), if only for it's non-committal, half-assed attitude toward all the decisions it makes.

[Chen G. 3,940]

Oh, I still find it superior to the tedium of Attack of the Clones, but otherwise yeah, it’s possibly the worst.

 

Its certainly the most reprehensible in its moral bankruptcy.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Just not Lawrence of Arabia enough.

[mstrox 6,637]

I liked one more than the other, but I liked em both!  Pretty good.