The Rise of Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

[TSMefford 1,509]

On 1/23/2020 at 1:50 PM, Edmilson said:

For me, the biggest problem of making Kylo the final big boss is simple: he isn't that menacing or intimidating as a villain. 

 

We saw him being defeated by "a girl who has never wielded a lightsaber", as Snoke puts it, and then we see him vulnerable and conflicted during his Skype chats with Rey, and by the end of TLJ Luke makes him look like an idiot in front of his entire army. 

 

We already saw him being so demoralized that he wouldn't be as interesting as a villain. Heck, TROS tried to do this in the marketing, teasing an epic final showdown between Kylo and Rey on the sunken Death Star 2, and even I thought "seriously? Rey will kick his ass as easily as Palpatine destroyed Maul and his brother on Clone Wars".

 

On other franchises, they at least made their final boss look menacing, strong and powerful enough to make the audience fear for the heroes' lives: Thanos, Voldemort, Azog, Sauron, even Vader and the Emperor on the original trilogy. On contrast, Kylo was always portrayed as this vulnerable, conflicted person, who, despite having some habilities, is easily defeated by any enemy slightly smarter than him.

 

I have no problem on him being a bad guy until the end, but at the very least giving him some powerful allied - not Palpatine, but maybe this Tor Valum guy...

 

These are pretty good points. I've been in the camp from the beginning that I wanted him to stay a villain though regardless. The whole redemption arc thing again was not interesting to me in the slightest, and after TLJ (as flawed as it is) set-up the shades of grey on both sides, I was really hoping we wouldn't do the route of redemption again. Oh well.

[gkgyver 1,645]

This trilogy would have benefitted greatly if all male characters weren't emasculated constantly, clearly. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Well this is Disney after all, the company that makes an endless stream of dainty, princessy cartoons for little girls.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Well, it seems many JWFan posters are fans of Frozen...

[Demodex 557]

7 hours ago, gkgyver said:

This trilogy would have benefitted greatly if all male characters weren't emasculated constantly, clearly. 

 

Seriously?  Or are you being sarcastic?

[Edmilson 7,381]

How many Disney movies a man is allowed to watch before he can no longer be considered a male person?

 

I'm afraid it's too late for me, but I want to know this for my future, still unborn son. I'll raise him on a healthy dose of Rambo, Rocky, Taxi Driver, the Saw franchise and Schwarznegger's Commando. Or better yet, I won't even allow him to watch movies, stuff like art is too sissy for him. The less time he spends watching movies, the more time he will have for his shooting and martial arts lessons!

[Arpy 4,145]

13 hours ago, TSMefford said:

 

These are pretty good points. I've been in the camp from the beginning that I wanted him to stay a villain though regardless. The whole redemption arc thing again was not interesting to me in the slightest, and after TLJ (as flawed as it is) set-up the shades of grey on both sides, I was really hoping we wouldn't do the route of redemption again. Oh well.

Yeah, but what does he have to fight for as a villain? Who is he by the end of TLJ? Either way you go, villainy or redemption, there's just not much there with Kylo to begin with. 

 

 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

When he wears the mask, he sounds like ED 209.

[TSMefford 1,509]

15 hours ago, Arpy said:

Yeah, but what does he have to fight for as a villain? Who is he by the end of TLJ? Either way you go, villainy or redemption, there's just not much there with Kylo to begin with. 

 

 

 

Sure. I was simply hoping they wouldn't do it again. Wherever they go with Star Wars next, I want two things and two things only: 1.) No more redemption arcs for the villains 2.) No more Death Stars / Star Killers / Planet Destroying laser beams.

[Arpy 4,145]

I can agree to cutting the superweapons at least. 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

21 hours ago, Edmilson said:

How many Disney movies a man is allowed to watch before he can no longer be considered a male person?

 

I'm afraid it's too late for me, but I want to know this for my future, still unborn son. I'll raise him on a healthy dose of Rambo, Rocky, Taxi Driver, the Saw franchise and Schwarznegger's Commando. Or better yet, I won't even allow him to watch movies, stuff like art is too sissy for him. The less time he spends watching movies, the more time he will have for his shooting and martial arts lessons!

 

Women only like men who are outdoorsmen, hunt live game, get into fist fights with everyone who looks at them wrong, and regularly eat beef jerky. Raising a kid on movies will just neuter him and women won't want to breed with him.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Disney used to make manly shit like Treasure Island and Davy Crockett.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

Then they decided to focus exclusively on the princess schtick, with sparkling fairies and shit.

[Arpy 4,145]

Snow White and Cinderella were out first, so it makes sense to capitalise on the brand if that's where it started. 

[crumbs 14,296]

Not exactly SW-related but this video with John Boyega choked me up. What a beautiful son!

 

 

 

[Arpy 4,145]

For all the shit that's heaped upon this trilogy, I absolutely love the main cast. In all the interviews they do, post on social media etc. they seem like great friends and genuinely good people. 

[Holko 9,498]

https://assets.adg.org/media/submissions/2019-12-27_11-27-04/SW_ADG_PDF.pdf

Production design "FYC" booklet. Some really interesting stuff in here!

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

Artwork from Treverrow's Duel of the fates - https://imgur.com/a/fbZFcbC

 

I am going to straight up say it here - after thinking about it and reading the outline and seeing the art work - I think it is one of the great unmade films of the modern times.

 

This film really could have been something special and spectacular and would have taken the star wars universe into bold new directions. 

 

Trevorrow's concept and script are infinitely better than the garbage Palpatine rehash that we got in Skywalker.

 

What a tragedy.

[Holko 9,498]

It's different garbage.

[Chen G. 3,943]

2 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Artwork from Treverrow's Duel of the fates

 

Some of it looks promising, some - not so much.

[Edmilson 7,381]

I don't know. I like some of the ideas, but I'm not sure if Trevorrow is the right person to execute them. I've never seen his first movie or Book of Henry, but his Jurassic movies aren't exactly good.

 

But I like the concepts, so maybe if they hired a more talented screenwriter to polish it, and a great director to handle it, it could've been great.

[Pellaeon 593]

Solana?

Solo-Organa?

 

You know what would be kickass, would be a “Sequel Trilogy” video game which would include elements (characters, planets, factions, etc.) from all of the different drafts and treatments and novels and whatever of the post-RotJ timeframe, and based on how you play it out, the universe could develop in any given way.

 

I’ve been thinking about trying to do that in tabletop gaming, somehow.

[mstrox 6,643]

I really dig the idea, which both Episode IXs played with in different ways, of a people's uprising being sparked by the acts of the Resistance (Trevorrow's Coruscant ground battle, Abrams' ex-stormtroopers and the people's fleet) Les Mis style (although obviously with a different resolution than that...).   I don't think the execution by Abrams was anything close to effective - some people seem to have liked it, and good for them, but the arrival of the fleet didn't really feel inspirational or emotional for me - just felt like a guaranteed eventuality, especially since it was in the trailers.  I don't have any faith that Trevorrow's would have been any better.

 

One of the things I'd hope to see in the comics or novelization would be Lando's attempts to win over "the people."  In my imagined scenario (or at least my imagined scenario given the framework of TROS): After Leia gave a last-ditch effort to mobilize planetary governments to aid the Resistance on Crait in TLJ, it was clear that revolution would have to come from elsewhere. Lando could go around from cantinas to smugglers' dens to persuade people to arm themselves, go forth, spread the message, and amass at Exegol - maybe using the name of Han Solo to incite action, since he would presumably mean more to that crew than Leia or Luke.

 

That's as close to fan fiction as I get, and I'm sorry for doing it.  I may have mentioned it here before, but I'm actually looking forward to the novelization for this movie, since I feel it really needed so much time/work for the chosen plot to really sing.  For TFA and TLJ, which I liked, I've had no interest to bother with the novelizations because I was completely satisfied.

[BrotherSound 2,242]

Treverrow’s Episode IX: Duel of the Fates script has leaked in its entirety:

 

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

What?! In this draft, Kylo is redeemed at the end, in a manner not too dissimilar to what he does in the finished film.

 

Oh well...

[DarthDementous 1,059]

differing creative visions my ass.

I read the entire thing and it's incredibly apparent that TROS is a bastardised version of this script, yet JJ and the like claim they never read any early scripts in pre-production. that's blatantly false, there's so many similar beats in TROS to this that it has to be more than coincidence, and every single one of them are done infinitely worse in TROS.

[Luke Skywalker 1,792]

Sad

[_deleted_ 203]

Instead of giving into her fears and calling herself a Skywalker, Rey actually grows as a Jedi and understands the balance that should be maintained. On paper, Rey Solana is already a better character than Abrams' Rey Skywalker/Rey Palpatine. I guess Manichaean dualism will always be an integral part of Star Wars. 

 

 

 

 

 

[DrTenma 116]

On 2/8/2020 at 8:30 PM, Chen G. said:

What?! In this draft, Kylo is redeemed at the end, in a manner not too dissimilar to what he does in the finished film.

 

Oh well...

This could be an indication of this draft being false. Supposedly Kylo didn't redeemed in "Duel of the Fates" according to the previous leaks...

[Chen G. 3,943]

We don't know which draft it is, though. Its possible Kylo's fate was different in various drafts.

[DrTenma 116]

1 hour ago, Chen G. said:

We don't know which draft it is, though. Its possible Kylo's fate was different in various drafts.

 

Yes, sure, I guess they made many iterations but I doesn't give me confidence that something as important as the fate of Kylo Ren was not fixed since the first draft. Although we know that George Lucas is also known for changing many things from one draft to another...

[bollemanneke 3,337]

Uh, I don't know if this has been discussed or not, but this just came to mind. Palpatine can't count. How did he go from the First Order to the Final Order? What happened to the second one?

[Edmilson 7,381]

I guess Final Order sounds more intimidating and apocalyptic than Second Order? Or Third?

[Chen G. 3,943]

All I know is they all sound dumb as hell.

[Arpy 4,145]

I guess it's a reference to Order 66. I didn't care too much about the name, it's inoffensive; what else are yuou going to call them? Mega Sith Army of the Dark Side? The First Order Supremacy?

 

 

[Chen G. 3,943]

You don’t need to call anything names. Especially when they sound so dumb.

 

But I suppose if the film as a whole was any better I would have let something like that slide.

[MedigoScan 324]

Guys can only give 2 orders in their life if they want too.

<.<

[bollemanneke 3,337]

10 hours ago, Arpy said:

I guess it's a reference to Order 66. I didn't care too much about the name, it's inoffensive; what else are yuou going to call them? Mega Sith Army of the Dark Side? The First Order Supremacy?

 

 

Order 66 was kind of cool though.

[_deleted_ 203]

I've given the whole Rey Skywalker thing more thought. I think it's just a really cheap way to ask kids to identify themselves with the now Disney-owned Star Wars brand.

 

Imagine a young girl who's searching for mythology and legends to fulfill the very basic human need for religious comfort. Now picture her finishing ROTJ and putting TFA into the player. She'll be amazed or confused by it, having gone through 12 hours of boys fighting boys, suddenly entering this rabbit hole that is Rey, a character constructed from the iconography of all the presumably dead boy characters of the saga.

 

Six hours later, Rey says the line. Rey isn't given a chance to establish an identity separate from the Skywalkers or the Palpatines. She's regurgitating stuff from the old films, while the film itself regurgitates the Binary Sunset, now shaped like BB-8. 

 

The BB-8 suns are cute. But I'm worried this ending would only encourage regurgitation. If the purpose of introducing Rey was to pose important questions for the young fangirls of SW, why throw in a yellow lightsaber, seemingly a symbol of individuality and creativity, when your character ends her journey with a name that means nothing to her. Why treat your character, the point of entry for a lot of girls, like a puppet?

 

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

I like the bit where she flexes her fit bod

[Giftheck 916]

The novel had a limited release at C2E2, and it confirms that Palpatine is inhabiting a clone body, and that body is decaying because it can't contain his power. His original body was, indeed, destroyed in ROTJ.

 

It's Dark Empire all over again, and I don't like it.

[Holko 9,498]

Source:

I don't like it either.

 

Star Wars: Electric Boogaloo

The dead speak... again! BRG KAH (whom you know from Fortnite 2), a SITH LOYALIST who was late for the rave you saw in the last one, made another clone of EMPEROR PALPATINE's body he can inhabit again!

[Giftheck 916]

It also gives them carte blanche to use the character again and again. Just say "hey, he made other bodies somewhere else in the galaxy" and they're good to go.

 

I much preferred the inference that it was his original body, somehow salvaged, with the restoration botched.

[Manakin Skywalker 4,889]

14 minutes ago, Giftheck said:

It also gives them carte blanche to use the character again and again. Just say "hey, he made other bodies somewhere else in the galaxy" and they're good to go.

 

I much preferred the inference that it was his original body, somehow salvaged, with the restoration botched.

 

Yeah as much as that seems unlikely given the massive explosion, it was more interesting to me thinking that Palpatine was at this point essentially a zombie; a rotting corpse with his spirit still attached. In a way it's kind of a similar situation, but more problematic since, as you said, they have to ability now to keep bringing him back.

[Giftheck 916]

The funny thing is, love him or loathe him, Rian Johnson gave JJ the perfect in for Palpatine to return when he set up the 'Force Projection' with the stipulation that overstretching means using all your life energy.

 

Instead, nope: zombie clone.

[Holko 9,498]

More like the perfect in for abandoning this bullshit and making it all about Rey and Kylo.

[Giftheck 916]

Just now, Holko said:

Or the perfect in for abandoning this bullshit and making it all about Rex and Kylo.

 

I think Rex is long dead by this point.

[mstrox 6,643]

Bringing Palpatine back was a stupid idea, so the technical in-universe means for doing it are pretty much irrelevant to me.

[Arpy 4,145]

3 hours ago, Giftheck said:

It also gives them carte blanche to use the character again and again. Just say "hey, he made other bodies somewhere else in the galaxy" and they're good to go.

 

I much preferred the inference that it was his original body, somehow salvaged, with the restoration botched.

Yep, I thought his mangled body was a consequence of his fall from RotJ, his fingers eroded away by the force lightning.

 

Though, it would seem likely Palpatine, in his Clone Wars plot would've exploited the cloning technology on Kamino to save as a contingency, knowing he might not discover the secrets of immortality he was after.

[Will 2,215]

OMG a final Coruscant battle would have been so awesome... 

 

Also I really like the ending in the script with Rey believed possibly dead but then taking everyone by surprise and coming back.