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The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

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15 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

Just saw it.

 

Okay firstly - you people think way too much. Because of the internet, I limped into the theatre expecting the worst, but what I got was oddly satisfying. One of the biggest problems with fandom is its preoccupation with details, technicalities and whether every facet makes perfect sense. Come on, SW has always been a bit dodgy; it mirrors its 40 B-flick serial heritage. But thanks to nostalgia and persistent self-important marketing, fans respond to the films with way more seriousness than they really merit.

 

And that's the trick to enjoying TROS - don't think too much. Instead, experience it at a visceral level and forget about how Palpatine had a nookie, alleged TLJ retcons (I didn't detect any), supposed fan service or minuscule contradictions and lapses in logic.

 

TROS is a romantic space fantasy about forgiveness and acceptance. How oddly fitting an end to the saga that the children/grandchildren of the Skywalkers and the Palpatines could find harmony with one-another on the homestead thats been a series touchstone since the very beginning. You're not responsible for the "Sins of the Father", I suppose its message is.

 

It probably sounds lame on paper, but for me it worked, even if it was a bit clunky in places.


Yes it’s a clunky but enjoyable mess. 

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I didn't detect any real mess. Again, fans seem to demand a higher level of perfection than these movies can realistically deliver, because they've forgotten what they are. I just liked this movie's positive message and 40s serial sense of adventure.

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I also laughed at how Palpatine reminded me of the MacGyver villain Murdoc in this, how he survived his previous movie death so mysteriously, and could change his voice to impersonate others with eerie accuracy to trick his victims.

 

He was also like Vigo in Ghostbusters II how he was looking for a new body to inhabit.

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Title: The Skywalker Saga

Synopsys: An hidden powerfull Sith Lord discovers the way to revive the woman he loves by putting a Force baby in her womb, thus creating without knowing it: The Chosen One. The Chosen one, according to an old ridiculous Jedi Prophecy that no one understand, is supposed to bring balance to the Force.  This young boy, named Anakin Skywalker, will quicky be found by an Old Jedi who will ensure that he's trained to be a Jedi too. But things will go wrong because of a suspicious and determined politician named Palpatine who will try by all means to turn the boy to the Dark Side.  This will be a mess!  But three generations later, a direct heir or Skywalker will succeed once again the feat of his great-grandfather, in reviving the woman he loves, having the effect of solving the Galaxy’s problems once and for all.

Note: 3/5

 

:rimshot:

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4 minutes ago, Arpy said:

I take umbrage with those who say this film was a retcon of TLJ; it actually supports TLJ. I remember reading a few reviews which took issue with how it seemingly tries to undo what Rian Johnson had done, but as I watched the film for the first time yesterday, I was surprised at how little truth there was to that and felt the elements they pointed out (Luke catches the Saber etc.) worked to support the choices that came before.

The only thing I genuinely felt like they had reduced in favour of the backlash was Rose's role, going from a large role in TLJ to almost a cameo.

 

These people are seeing what they want to see and amplifying it through hyperbole. For clicks or views or something. 

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I can get behind the film's flaws and agree with many of them, but it didn't diminish my enjoyment of the film. What did was the complete and utter magic that was sapped from the experience by the palpable apathy to Star Wars in general that was sparked by TLJ. There wasn't the same magic in the air as there was with Revenge of the Sith - and it made me depressed. Really. 

Everywhere I go, it's all over for Star Wars and there's no one left to talk to, to find commonality and camaraderie in the franchise anymore. It's a wall of hostility and anger and I hate it. I'm probably being over-dramatic, and maybe it's just exposure to such a concentrated negativity online...

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6 minutes ago, Arpy said:

I can get behind the film's flaws and agree with many of them, but it didn't diminish my enjoyment of the film. What did was the complete and utter magic that was sapped from the experience by the palpable apathy to Star Wars in general that was sparked by TLJ. There wasn't the same magic in the air as there was with Revenge of the Sith - and it made me depressed. Really. 

Everywhere I go, it's all over for Star Wars and there's no one left to talk to, to find commonality and camaraderie in the franchise anymore. It's a wall of hostility and anger and I hate it. I'm probably being over-dramatic, and maybe it's just exposure to such a concentrated negativity online...

Come to the Discord, we love TLJ there! ;)

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1 hour ago, Arpy said:

The only thing I genuinely felt like they had reduced in favour of the backlash was Rose's role, going from a large role in TLJ to almost a cameo.

 

Yeah, I didn’t see this film as doing too much to rewrite The Last Jedi, with the exception of rewriting the identity of Rey’s parents (fucking awful!). Even with Rose it strikes me like she was at least partially cut down in the editing. It does seem like she was supposed to have a bigger part in the final battle.

 

Movie’s a mess.

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I shudder to think what this film could have been without the last minute re-shoots.

I also don't "think too much". If you begin to think only for one second during this film, it falls apart like a game of domino. 

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5 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

SW movies are visceral experiences, not exercises in maintaining absolute, rigid logical consistency. The latter is why nerds fail at appreciating drama.

 

Nonsense. Being a Star Wars movie doesn't absolve them from logical storytelling, pacing or dramatic efficiency.

ROS isn't just a bad Star Wars film, it's also a badly conceived movie in general. Don't act as if this film is some drama masterclass. 

Not one character arc is developed or concluded in this film. People and relationships appear and disappear for no reason. 

And the main character Rey doesn't have any journey to speak of. The one moment that is supposed to be a pivotal moment with Luke, just feels rushed and unnatural. 

Between Rey just "getting" the Force at the end of TLJ, and the start of ROS, she became insanely powerful without any obstacle or journey whatsoever. 

Her demeanor of being all nice and Buddha to everyone, like to Zori or the snake or the native that gives her the necklace, is completely out of touch and out of character, she hasn't earned any of these moments.

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1 minute ago, gkgyver said:

 

Nonsense. Being a Star Wars movie doesn't absolve them from logical storytelling, pacing or dramatic efficiency.

ROS isn't just a bad Star Wars film, it's also a badly conceived movie in general. Don't act as if this film is some drama masterclass. 

Not one character arc is developed or concluded in this film. People and relationships appear and disappear for no reason. 

And the main character Rey doesn't have any journey to speak of. The one moment that is supposed to be a pivotal moment with Luke, just feels rushed and unnatural. 

Between Rey just "getting" the Force at the end of TLJ, and the start of ROS, she became insanely powerful without any obstacle or journey whatsoever. 

Her demeanor of being all nice and Buddha to everyone, like to Zori or the snake or the native that gives her the necklace, is completely out of touch and out of character, she hasn't earned any of these moments.

 

That's all nerd talk.

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Even as a visceral experience, just the simple flow with which it took me through its journey left me pretty addled.

 

I really have no beef with how it concludes the saga or anything. Rey Palpatine, I think is pretty clumsily introduced but in the broad strokes, I like that it's about her rejecting the evil of the Palatines and letting the Skywalkers represent the light once and for all. It is maybe a little fucky when you consider the Skywalkers are dead and a Palpatine has survived, but I think that is "killing the past" in the right way, making the bloodlines irrelevant. Anyone who is really bothered by that or Palpatine having sex is probably also the kind of person who thinks too much about Back to the Future being gross. 

 

And the Rey-Ben kiss, as another example, didn't make me swoon but the intention to me felt like a "what could have been" statement, if he hadn't become Kylo Ren. I liked that. The brave cocky swagger of Driver's performance as Ben and his goofy smile after he kisses Rey, you can kinda see Han and Leia's boy there, the son they lost and who Rey might have seen in her visions of him turning. I never understood Reylo but I sort of appreciate it now on that level.

 

It really is purely as its own thing that the movie had its biggest issues. It's not about rigid logic, I just didn't find anything of interest or to relate to with this plot or the character relationships. As a visceral/emotional experience, it really falls short of TFA and TLJ.

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Also consider how Rey discovered the force in the first place. 

Not even halfway into TFA, she got captured by Kylo Ren for interrogation, tied up, and because she had heard of the legend of the force, she just tried to levitate a lightsabre towards her, AND IT WORKED. 

That's like a kid reading Superman comics, feeling compelled to jump off the roof to fly, and IT WORKS! 

 

From that point forward, through 2 1/2 movies, there was no additional character arc whatsoever. 

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The issue for me is that in The Force Awakens and the bulk of The Last Jedi, Rey is presented as this quintessentially good person, which is great. However, in portions of The Last Jedi and in the bulk of The Rise of Skywalker, the films try to wring tension from Rey possibly changing allegiances, and it never works because we know she's a good person and she's simply not going to turn evil just 'cause.

 

The Rise of Skywalker in a way does try to show Rey at her most rash, tempestous and reckless, but its still not enough. Also, while Daisy Ridley has been great in these films, this particular one requires her to act shell-shocked much too often, either at her own abilities, her supposed dark urges, the discovery of her lineage, etcetra. Its not Ridley's strong suit, and it gets really old.

 

So even the acting, which was thus far one of the strengths of this trilogy, doesn't go unscathed in this particular entry.

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20 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

From that point forward, through 2 1/2 movies, there was no additional character arc whatsoever. 

 

Rey's biggest development was about her fixation on her past, her need for someone to give her a sense of belonging and purpose in the universe, and that overarching struggle to create an identity for herself. The Last Jedi did a really good job of fleshing that out, and this movie both hurts and pushes that arc.

 

The scene where Palpatine tells her to kill him feels like Abrams and Terrio watched Return of the Jedi and thought "Well why would Luke turn to the dark side here?" Here Palpatine plays on that major fear of Rey's, stripping away and destroying the sense of family and identity she finally created for herself. 

 

In a movie filled with so many daft moments, this scene is surprisingly astute. 

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19 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

The issue for me is that in The Force Awakens and the bulk of The Last Jedi, Rey is presented as this quintessentially good person, which is great. However, in portions of The Last Jedi and in the bulk of The Rise of Skywalker, the films try to wring tension from Rey possibly changing allegiances, and it never works because we know she's a good person and she's simply not going to turn evil just 'cause.

 

I see it as the exact opposite. For me, Daisy Ridley is conveying a very frustrated, troubled, and thinly veiled angry person deep inside, whose goody two shoe moments come across as completely unnatural and forced. 

They want her to depict this quintessential good person, but her presence conveys something different. She's just completely miscast. 

To me, she's better at depicting a frustrated and fearful Jedi's journey to the dark side in this movie than Hayden Christensen was in the prequel trilogy. 

 

Had this movie ended with the Emperor stirring so much anger in Rey that she strikes him and the knights of Ren down and went all satan on their asses, and climbed the throne as Sith Rey, and then Kylo Ren, the ACTUAL Skywalker, came in and defeated her with his last breath, and Luke at his side who redeems himself for wanting to kill him, that could probably have saved the movie. 

 

But as it is, it's a boring, overly predictable ending, that doesn't even make sense and does the worst kind of fan fiction. 

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6 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

see it as the exact opposite. For me, Daisy Ridley is conveying a very frustrated, troubled, and thinly veiled angry person deep inside, whose goody two shoe moments come across as completely unnatural and forced. 

 

I remember when people were thinking that the Rey's Theme variations in The Force Awakens lightsaber duel (Ways of the Force?), along with her aggressiveness, was hinting her turn to the dark side.

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She was never going to turn to the dark side.  She was conceived as this empowering, inspirational female figure.  And that is a good thing, but the execution was mixed and JJs attempts to liven things up, give some depth, connection to the rest of the franchise seem rather sloppy to me.  Complaints that Rey is not "feminine" enough often have problematic motivation, but it is true that it feels that she is missing something that would really make her a well-rounded female character, and a well-rounded hero with a clear arc.  What that something is is hard to define.  Good writing is a "you know it when you see it" kind of thing.   Johnson actually improved things in that department, took steps in the right direction in TLJ.  It's JJ who was not on sure footing here.  

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There's no need to rewrite movie history for "inspiring empowering females". Because they always existed in movies. 

 

People believing women are profoundly oppressed in modern western societies have serious psychological issues. 

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8 minutes ago, gkgyver said:

People believing women are profoundly oppressed in modern western societies have serious psychological issues. 

 

They generally earn less money, even in the same jobs as men. And have less effective healthcare. 

 

To name a few things.

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So I did see this. Yes, I know I said I wouldn’t. I certainly didn’t plan to, but my new brother in law invited me and I’m trying to bond with the guy. Anyway, here’s my ranking for the franchise as it stands now:

 

1. The Empire Strikes Back

2. Star Wars

3. The Force Awakens

4. Return of the Jedi

5. Revenge of the Sith

6. Solo

7. The Clone Wars (having seen maybe 3 dozen episodes)

8. The Blandalorian
9. The Rise of Skywalker

10. Rogue One

11. The Phantom Menace

12. Rebels (based on having seen maybe 8 episodes)

13. Attack of the Clones

14. The Last Jedi

 

I’ve not seen the ewok movies or the holiday special. I am aware that my 2nd through 4th choices basically share a screenplay.

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1 hour ago, Stefancos said:

They generally earn less money, even in the same jobs as men. And have less effective healthcare. 

 

To name a few things.

 

And tend to get death threats when they speak out about the disadvantages of women in modern society. And have a unusually high chance of getting killed by their husbands (presumably those kind of men who believe that women are in no way underprivileged and that feminism equals extremism).

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