The Rise of Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

[crumbs 14,306]

Interesting justification from Terrio. I wonder if those scenes will turn up on the Bluray for damage control, or if they'll just totally ignore the complaints.

[Holko 9,519]

TFA barely had any deleted scenes included, none of them that worthwile. Not even of the overmarketed Constable Zuvio!

[crumbs 14,306]

Probably because most of the 'deleted scenes' were just short dialogue exchanges or abandoned ideas that never amounted to anything substantial. Constable Zuvio probably had one line of dialogue directing his goons to attack Rey when she refused to give up BB8, which was rightfully deleted. But clearly there's a lot more interesting stuff from TROS that got completely turfed out (the most intriguing being the original prologue, which was apparently the Leia/Luke flashback?!)

 

Really though, shouldn't the director be the one explaining these blatant issues? Why is the co-writer saying the VFX weren't up to scratch for these Leia scenes when that's clearly the director's decision?

 

Other points:

1. It feels like all Abrams has done since the film came out was make excuses for his poor decisions -- surely they were blatantly obvious before releasing the film?

2. If there's a surplus of abandoned Rose/Leia scenes, Williams may have written new variations on her theme (and Leia's) in the complete sessions. Here's hoping, anyway.

3. I have no idea how Mike would assemble C&C versions of TFA or TROS with all these narrative changes during post-production. It makes all those ROTK changes Doug Adams dealt with minimal by comparison.

[Arpy 4,145]

Watched an interesting video earlier today which has compiled the road to TRoS, the reshoots, recuts and original storyline involving the Son of Mortis - the ancient Sith deity in Dave Filoni's Clone Wars series. Matt Smith was purportedly going to play him until that was completely scrapped. 

 

It's not too hard to see how that might fit in with TRoS's 'All the Sith' talk, replacing Sidious with Mortis. Whilst I think that would've been more interesting, it would've alienated and confused Disney's target audience on who or what Mortis is this late in the saga. The Mortis storyline in The Clone Wars was from George Lucas himself, with the supposed inclusion of the Son of Mortis from a script he developed with Abrams. I'm skeptical of how much is true, naturally, but it sounds like that could perfectly eradicate the idea of Rey being a Palpatine and keep the Force Dyad intact - with Rey and Kylo incarnations of the Force.

 

Oh well. Hopefully there's a huge doco on all this bts mingling some day: 'Star Wars: Unhinged - A Look Behind the Force of Disney' or something...

[Holko 9,519]

42 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I have no idea how Mike would assemble C&C versions of TFA or TROS with all these narrative changes during post-production. It makes all those ROTK changes Doug Adams dealt with minimal by comparison.

Sure, but Doug was trying to assemble a single linear entity as good an approximation to the final version as possible without any changes to Shore's recorded material - MM can technically go back to earlier more coherent stuff for the main program if needed and include the rest as alternates. LotR is also a much more tight musical narrative than the average SW.

[crumbs 14,306]

40 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Watched an interesting video earlier today which has compiled the road to TRoS, the reshoots, recuts and original storyline involving the Son of Mortis - the ancient Sith deity in Dave Filoni's Clone Wars series. Matt Smith was purportedly going to play him until that was completely scrapped. 

 

There's a long post on MilenniumFalcon.org detailing all that from an "insider" but it read like total fiction to me. Just used convenient details like Lucas being absent from the premiere as ammunition to fuel a baseless narrative about what may/may not have happened during pre-production. Also, the delay of the art book until March, which fans think is a conspiracy to remove abandoned concepts from seeing the light of day.

 

I think the film is just a mess because Abrams hacked it to pieces in an attempt to get the runtime down, without realising how much he was harming the narrative by cutting each scene down to a few short lines. I don't think it's a coincidence that 6 weeks pre-release, theatres were given an approx. runtime of 155 minutes, only to have 15 minutes disappear by the release date. They either ran out of time to finish all the VFX needed or just decided to hack away at every scene in a desperate attempt to shorten the film, losing all sense of pacing in the process and creating a borderline incoherent, whiplash inducing mess in the process.

 

Why JJ felt the film needed to move at lightspeed, when nobody would have complained about it taking its time with the narrative progression, has me stuffed. It's the opposite problem to TLJ where a few minutes shaved off the runtime would really have helped that Canto Bight sequence. This film desperately needed a few extra minutes around key plot reveals to let audiences comprehend what they were actually watching.

[Chen G. 3,949]

The one thing the film had the time to dwell on was Leia’s death and Kylo’s change-of-heart, and even those aren’t as drawn out as I would have liked.

[Edmilson 7,433]

Why not release on theaters the 155-minute long cut? Is it to help on the box office (smaller movies means more sessions during the day)? 

 

Because, if that's the reason, Disney has literally no problem releasing their mega movies with very long cuts:

 

Civil War: 148 minutes

The Last Jedi: 152 minutes

Infinity War: 150 minutes

Endgame: 182 minutes

Incredibles 2: 118 minutes (very long for an animated kids movie)

 

It's the same mistake WB did with that horrid Justice League movie, they obligated the final cut to be just 120 minutes so they can book more sessions during the day and not only it made the movie worse, but also didn't helped at all at the BO. Meanwhile, Aquaman and Wonder Woman were both 140 minutes, and they all did wonderfully.

 

People have no problems watching very long movies, as long as they worth investing their time. Who knows, maybe those extra 13 minutes would've made TROS a little better (not a good movie, mind you, but a little less awful).

 

On the other hand, who knows, maybe those extra minutes were also terrible, and would make our suffering to last longer.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I wanted dream-Han, new-Force Ghost Leia and Ben Solo sat in a circle together, working through their issues.

[crumbs 14,306]

3 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

On the other hand, who knows, maybe those extra minutes were also terrible, and would make our suffering to last longer.

 

Yeah, it could have been extra scenes with Klaud, who was bafflingly invisible in the final cut (despite featuring prominently in an early teaser poster!)

[Arpy 4,145]

29 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

 

Incredibles 2: 118 minutes (very long for an animated kids movie)

 

 

Animation is not synonymous with children's entertainment. Bird and other contemporaries have been working to remove this ignorance from blind filmgoers who think animation is for kids.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They're just kiddie films!

[Arpy 4,145]

Like Star Wars!

[Edmilson 7,433]

7 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Animation is not synonymous with children's entertainment. Bird and other contemporaries have been working to remove this ignorance from blind filmgoers who think animation is for kids.

 

Both Incredibles movies are indeed more mature than the regular Minions/Ice Age/Madagascar/whatever movies. And I argue that it's because of Incredibles 2 being also a superhero action movie (albeit animated) that it made Avengers-sized box office.

 

But a lot of parents don't think that way and brought their kiddos to the movie. For a lot of them and their children, it's just a funny cartoon with super-heroes, explosions and a baby who can shoot lasers from his eyes. And that's not even counting the huge amount of Incredibles merchandise for kids, from lunchboxes, backpacks, notebooks, etc.

 

It's both a super-hero movie AND a family movie - and a very long one when you compare it to the average Disney/Pixar movie (most of them have a running time between 90 minutes and 105 minutes).

[Naïve Old Fart 9,514]

A QQ, for those who have seen it: as there seems to be an awful lot going on, would it have been better to split the film into pt. I, and pt. II?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

They should have made a different movie.

 

 

[Bayesian 1,363]

7 hours ago, Holko said:

TFA barely had any deleted scenes included, none of them that worthwile. Not even of the overmarketed Constable Zuvio!

I was near obsessed with TFA when it was coming out and I don’t remember anything about this constable guy. Obviously it wasn’t overmarketed to me!

[Jay 37,346]

Here's a nice article about it:

 

https://www.slashfilm.com/who-is-constable-zuvio/

[mstrox 6,651]

He was a background alien that was in promotional shots, had 3.75" and 6" action figures, and featured in an official short story before the release of TFA.  In the movie itself, he was blurry in the Rey/Finn Jakku chase for like two frames.  He was TFA's Rose.

[Bayesian 1,363]

Interesting character. When it comes to franchise films like SW, I don’t usually pay attention to the toys or the extended universe, so I see now how he flew under my radar.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

1 hour ago, mstrox said:

He was a background alien that was in promotional shots, had 3.75" and 6" action figures, and featured in an official short story before the release of TFA.  In the movie itself, he was blurry in the Rey/Finn Jakku chase for like two frames.  He was TFA's Rose.

 

I remember when The Phantom Menace was coming out, they released Mace Windu and a Battle Droid as preview dolls. They were at least prominently featured in the movie and toys you could actually play with, not some alien with a hat.

[mstrox 6,651]

Back in the olden days, before Star Wars relaunched in the 1990s, I played with all sorts of aliens with hats.  Walrus Man!  Hammerhead!  I never watched the Ghostbusters cartoon or the He-man cartoon, but I had tons of figures that interacted with 'em too, scale be damned.  Zuvio would have probably fit in with them.  It's a bummer that the toy market cratered and Hasbro can't make cool looking aliens anymore.

 

 

 

MEANWHILE...A spoilery interview with the cowriter of the movie.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-writer-sets-record-straight-perceived-last-jedi-jabs-1265168

 

He equivocates a little bit here or there, but knowing the writers' intentions may be helpful...

 

There is also some specific commentary about John Williams and his track title “A New Home.”

[Arpy 4,145]

Well, either it's a symbolic new home, for the resting place of the Skywalker Sabers, or Williams believed that it would become Rey's new home.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

It's a pretty horrifying glimpse into the making of this movie. Cliffsnotes:

 

"We came up with Rey's lineage at the last second."

 

"We had more scenes with Rose but they were removed because Carrie Fisher. We still love her!"

 

"Luke catching the lightsaber wasn't a jab at the previous movie, we swear. It was character development."

 

"Finn has the force."

 

"Force healing was something we liked from the EU and we decided it's a thing now."

[crumbs 14,306]

Since seeing the film, my interpretation of JW's track title is a reference to the lightsabers, not Rey. I think the way Terrio elaborates upon his and JJ's intentions there reaffirms that.

[King Mark 3,631]

I also like Babu Fric but he felt more like a side character of a Dreamworks of Pixar animated movie

[publicist 4,643]

 

I was finally dragged into this and, given all the bad press the movie received, it surprisingly went over relatively painless. The script is beyond awful, so kudos to Abrams for keeping it from keeling over (imagine Lucas would have directed it...yuck!).

 

A few basic impressions:

 

- the first 15 minutes felt like Twitch Feed - The Movie, but it got better afterwards

- both Ridley and Driver, this trilogy's token siblings, are fine actors that gave the mess a bit of gravitas, as much as was humanly possible

- no pity for Abrams, as he wholly brought this malaise over himself when he basically remaked SW in Episode VII: that's what it looks like when you've cornered yourself into fan service devoid of ideas, vision or anything relevant to tell

- cameos suck

- there was some excellent visual design and the part in the ruins of the Death star made me wish it wasn't for such a silly story

- Williams would have deserved a better career finisher, but he struggled manfully and from time to time could contribute something beyond breathless orchestral huffing and puffing (the bittersweet 'farewell' theme, the permutations of Ren's theme - basically everything leading up to Rey's choice)

 

...and on a wistful note, how much better it could have been if you started this thing fresh, not with another rebellion outfit against the empire, bringing *all* the old characters back and so forth. Ah well, now having finally seen all 9 Star Wars movies i now will never watch this stuff again and al i still hope for a release of the Williams prequels. 

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

I went in expecting to not even get into it, but I enjoyed it for what it was and a hell of a lot more than all the other Disney movies. Fully loaded with fountain Diet Coke and a large popcorn, after an excruciating insulting 30 minutes of previews delaying the start time, it was exactly what it should be. A popcorn space movie for kids.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

It was a great soap opera.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

I think going into production without a 3 film outline was catastrophic.

 

And I will agree with the discussion that happened sometime ago - Rian Johnson gave JJ nothing to work with. NOTHING.

 

Here is what JJ set up in Ep 7 for Rian and how Rian paid it off - 

 

Luke is finally discovered at the end of 7 - Luke dies at the end of 8

Knights of Ren are set up in 7 to be explored further - Ignored in 8

Rey's parentage a mystery in 7 - Solved in 8

Snoke set up the big bad villain in 7 - Killed in the middle act of 8

Finn set up as one the 3 leads in 7 - Trapped in a ridiculous side subplot in 8

 

Ep 8 gave no guidance to the follower as to how to follow it. I'd argue Ep 7 atleast set up various lines to be explored in 8. Not only did Rian trample all over them - he provided none of his own. Nobody had any idea at the end of 8 where the story could go. We knew at the end of Ep5 atleast something about what to expect. We knew at the end of Ep2 atleast something about what to expect. We knew absolutely nothing about what was going to happen in Ep 9 after Ep 8. The story had no momentum point, set up no mysteries, created no momentum or inevitability.

 

So JJ was forced to cook up the nonsense garbage that he did. Because he had nothing to work with. NOTHING was set up for him in Ep 8. Absolutely nothing.

 

I think the only option would have been - they should has asked Rian back. Saying Rian - you have put us in a corner. We don't know how to proceed. You show us the way and write the script for us. Have some skin in the game. Your name is going to be credited up on the screen on 9. So come join the fray and if there is blame - share the blame and if there is reward share the reward.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

10 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

And I will agree with the discussion that happened sometime ago - Rian Johnson gave JJ nothing to work with. NOTHING.

 

I categorically disagree. Arguably RJ left JJ with juicier stuff than JJ left RJ.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Rian Johnson set up the poetic arc of Luke catching the lightsaber rather than throwing it. He also presented the opportunity for a new villain: Palpatine's reanimated corpse attached to a crane! Just brilliant.

[TheUlyssesian 2,478]

7 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

I categorically disagree. Arguably RJ left JJ with juicier stuff than JJ left RJ.

 

Like what?

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Chewie's death was ruined by the fact that most trailers featured a scene with him flying the millennium falcon with lando.....

[Arpy 4,145]

1 hour ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

Like what?

The Resistance in tatters, Kylo embracing the dark side, Rey left to piece together the Resistance and the Jedi, quite literally with the broken Saber. The unrequited sexual tension between Kylo and Rey, the relationship between Finn and Rose, The return of the Jedi throughout the galaxy... 

 

***

 

 

I reckon Snoke shouldn't have been axed, instead have it be revealed he was Darth Plagueis returned to correct the error of Palpatine's ways. Keep the Force Dyad and make Rey a literal nobody, or a virgin birth like Anakin as an answer to the rise of the dark side. Like Snoke says: Darkness rises and Light to meet it.

[publicist 4,643]

I reckon it all could have been done without a virtual repeat of all this dark side shit, the insistence (by the screenwriters as much as the fans) on a blueprint of Episode IV's point of origin is a mistake. A good storyteller would have come up with a more original solution, and probably the gazillions of novelizations have already successfully done this.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Rey turning to the dark side and Kylo Ren turning to the side of good sounded kinda cool. I mean, Kylo Ren had absolutely no motivation to do anything evil in this except Palpatine offering him a bigger army. Honestly, you never got the sense he really wanted that. Why is this guy doing evil things? Because the script says so?

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

He wanted sexy Dark Rey

[Arpy 4,145]

Yeah Kylo's motivations aren't really explored and don't have much grounding until TLJ. Why would he want to become Supreme Leader? What was Snoke's goal? What was he pushing Kylo to become? Why have Rey killed.

 

Palpatine wanted Rey killed - but I guess that's a callback to ESB with Palpatine wanting Luke dead...

[publicist 4,643]

Nothing of this filmic soufflé could withstand even the tiniest bit of scrutiny. That's why I actually applaud Abrams for bringing it off.

[Bespin 8,480]

I agree on you.  They wanted to tell us so many things in only one movie.  This is why I said TLJ was a bit lazy, or a lost occasion to take his part of responsibilities.

 

One movie to close a story of nine movies, that's a lot:

 

- Palpatine IS the most powerfull Sith the galaxy has ever known, he always was. So he always was behind Snoke from the start. 

- Leia must die, so Kylo Ben will be the last Skywalker. 

- Rey is related to Palpatine by bloodline, so the Last Skywalker and the Last Palpatine will confront (physically they are two, but in the Force they are one, both of equal forces, a kind of balance in itself, very rare... and powerfull!).

- Kylo Ben will sacrifice himself to save Rey (that's the Ascension of Skywalker). 

- And oh, we have to end that "backstory" of that war between The Resistance vs The Whatever Order. 

- Rey will pay hommage to Leia and Luke by burying their lightsabers on Tatooine and by renaming herself to Rey Skywalker.

 

Lucas was clear years before the release of the last trilogy. (I have to find the exact quotes).  The new trilogy will features characters who'll have to make choices to be what they want to be, no matter where they come from and who they really are. This trilogy is all about choices and hope. 

 

 

 

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

3 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

 

Like what?

 

The struggle between Rey and Kylo Ren, who's now the big bad of the trilogy instead of someone's willing thrall?

 

The decimated Resistance having to reassert itself against the First Order. Poe as the new leader after Leia's tragic death. Finn with his new found goal of actually being a Resistance member rather than pretending to be one.

 

Rey coming to terms with her relationship with the Force.

 

That combined with a new plot are all interesting things that Ep 9 could have gone with rather than sticking an old, supposedly dead character on a crane and suddenly break out FIFTEEN THOUSAND Star Destroyers and a bunch of Sith lore stuff that does little than power this films scavenger hunt.

 

Oh well.

[Chen G. 3,949]

Exactly!

 

47 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Kylo Ben will sacrifice himself to save Rey (that's the Ascension of Skywalker). 

 

That's also the moral bankruptcy of the entire series.

 

Apperantly, Skywalkers can get a free pass for multiple homicides (including patricide and a massacre of teenagers) if they give CPR to a young woman. Despicable.

 

47 minutes ago, Bespin said:

Lucas was clear years before the release of the last trilogy. (I have to find the exact quotes).  The new trilogy will features characters who'll have to make choices[...]This trilogy is all about choices and hope.

 

You do realize all movies are about choices, right?

 

Lucas' precise words were that the sequel trilogy would be about "the necessity for moral choices and the widsom needed to distinguish right from wrong." To me, this reads as vague and generic to the point of being purposefully evasive. This was in 1983, by which time Lucas clearly made Return of the Jedi the ultimate chapter of the series, rather than a pit-stop on the way to a ninth chapter. But he clearly thought that to admit he truncated his series would be bad publicity, so he kept talking his head off about the sequel trilogy well into the 1980s.

 

There should never have been a sequel trilogy.

[Demodex 557]

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/12/30/star-wars-palpatines-return-was-apparently-kathleen-kennedys-idea-jj-abrams-rise-of-skywalker-emperor-rey-kylo

 

So now it was supposedly Kennedy's idea to bring back Palpatine. 

 

[Bespin 8,480]

NOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

It was planned from the start.

 

Quote

Kathleen Kennedy says Palpatine's return was in the blueprint for a long time. "We had not landed on exactly how we might do that, but it was always [to be in Episode IX]."

 

[Chen G. 3,949]

8 minutes ago, Demodex said:

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/12/30/star-wars-palpatines-return-was-apparently-kathleen-kennedys-idea-jj-abrams-rise-of-skywalker-emperor-rey-kylo

 

 

 

Nowhere does it say that Kathleen Kennedy had the idea of the Emperor's return before The Force Awakens hit theaters: only before Terrio came on-board The Rise of Skywalker.

 

The idea that Kylo's overall traejectory was always aiming towards an eventual redemption, repungant though such a concept may be - that I can see - just like I can see the concept of a "Dyad in the Force" being there from early on. The idea that the sequel trilogy should tie a bow around all nine films reads like an idea Kathleen Kennedy may have had, too.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

5 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

 

Nowhere does it say that Kathleen Kennedy had the idea of the Emperor's return before The Force Awakens hit theaters: only before Terrio came on-board The Rise of Skywalker.

 

The idea that Kylo's overall traejectory was always aiming towards an eventual redemption, repungant though such a concept may be - that I can see - just like I can see the concept of a "Dyad in the Force" being there from early on. The idea that the sequel trilogy should tie a bow around all nine films reads like an idea Kathleen Kennedy may have had, too.

 

Vader redeemed. Any problem there?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Þekþiþm said:

 

Vader redeemed. Any problem there?

 

He killed kids! What do you mean redeemed?

[Chen G. 3,949]

Vader was only made mass-murderer in retrospect. His worst deed in the classic trilogy was to kill Obi Wan.

 

Kylo Ren is a much, much more villanous character than Vader, actually. He also killed kids (Luke's other students), and he ordered the massacre of a whole village.

 

Vader couldn't bring himself to kill his own kin - Kylo could, and more than once.

[Demodex 557]

2 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Vader was only made mass-murderer in retrospect. His worst did in the classic trilogy was to kill Obi Wan. 

 

He stood by and watched a planet be destroyed.  And didn't Obi Wan tell Luke that Vader hunted down and destroyed the Jedi knights?  (I could be remembering that wrong.)