The Rise of Skywalker The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Mattris said:

This reddit post bolsters the 'multiple cuts of TROS' theory that was making the rounds in the weeks leading up to the film's release. Personally, I give it some credence. Release the JJ Cut!

 

He he he....

[Alex 2,833]

No wonder the score is hacked to bits if there’s a Disney cut, Lucasfilm cut, JJ cut etc etc

[crumbs 14,287]

Quote

 

A source said that this is the one franchise and the one piece of his work that he didn't want to mess up and instead it turned into his worst nightmare. When he found out that he was blindsided with the cut they presented, he said "what the fuck??" when Kylo was fighting the Knights of Ren at the end and the Williams music that was used for it was not what he wanted at all. He seemed to think it was out of place.

 

 

???

 

I mean, I think most of these rumours are just way too absurd to be true. Firstly, I would've thought JJ had final cut privileges written into his contract when he agreed to come back (they were desperate, let's face it). Could 15 minutes really have been cut out of the film by random Disney executives only a few weeks between "JJ's final cut" and the release? The post-production was based at Bad Robot, along with all the film's assets. How does something like that even happen if JJ doesn't approve? Why would they care about a bunch of random force ghosts appearing at the end? It just makes zero sense for Disney to intentionally sabotage their own property (that cost them $4B to purchase) just to tarnish JJ's name before he takes on a role at DC. That's tinfoil hat nonsense.

 

The only thing these rumours explain is why the film is so choppy and confusing, also why there's so many fragments of tracked music from TFA/TLJ all over the film, despite Williams having time to score everything. I do find it very odd that the clip they released with The Speeder Chase in November had the correctly placed music, only for the final cut to be a hacked up mess. I could see clueless executives not liking that cue because it's so old-fashioned (whereas I would've thought JJ would love and request that type of scoring!)

 

But my gut says this is just fanboy anger at Disney designed to create clickbait, fanning the flames and trying to absolve JJ of wrongdoing.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

I’ve heard through my grapevine over the last 6-8 months that things were more contentious than usual with the production and post-production of this film...so this particular bit of rumor dovetails with what I’ve heard. 

 

It certainly could be folks from BadRobot trying to do damage control. But that in and of itself tells you more about the production and the working relationship between the parties involved than anything. There’s no usual unified front here. 

 

 

2 hours ago, crumbs said:

Why would they care about a bunch of random force ghosts appearing at the end?

🇨🇳  

[Edmilson 7,370]

7 hours ago, Mattris said:

Release the JJ Cut!

 

Please, don't.

 

On 12/31/2019 at 5:27 PM, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Seems as though this one won't make as much as TLJ.

 

TLJ reached the 1 billion dollar mark on December 31st 2017, its 17th day of release worldwide:

 

https://variety.com/2017/film/news/box-office-star-wars-last-jedi-jumanji-2-1202650420/

 

For TROS to keep track of TLJ, it has to reach the billion mark on January 4th 2020, its 17th day on release, or before. Until Sunday, it was on $725m worldwide, compared to TLJ's $750m WW after the same amount of time. 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I think we can safely say that the attempt to repair the damage supposedly done by TLJ and unite the fans has utterly and spectacularly failed.

 

Blame can only go to JJ!

[Giftheck 916]

If there's any truth to that post, considering where it's posted, then it seems JJ might have had 0 say on the final product.

 

There was a video that I saw that has the interviewer ask the whole cast what they thought of the ending. Nobody was paying attention to JJ there, but it seems to me he was utterly unsurprised by their reactions.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

1 minute ago, Giftheck said:

If there's any truth to that post, considering where it's posted, then it seems JJ might have had 0 say on the final product.

 

 

 

JJ is one of the most successful directors working today. You really think he had zero input in the film he co-wrote and directed?

 

How did Rian Johnson get away with making TLJ if a far more famous director is being stiffled by Disney?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

6 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

JJ is one of the most successful directors working today. You really think he had zero input in the film he co-wrote and directed?

 

How did Rian Johnson get away with making TLJ if a far more famous director is being stiffled by Disney?

 

He’s upper mid-range success, renowned in the industry for being easy to work with. He’s THE studio director.

 

So you are both wrong and right at the same time. He probably had less input than Rian, because he is easy to work with, and two, he fucked it up by being a doormat, so it is in fact his fault. He signed his name in the end instead of quitting.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

He’s upper mid-range success, renowned in the industry for being easy to work with. He’s THE studio director.

 

So you are both wrong and right at the same time. He probably had less input than Rian, because he is easy to work with, and two, he fucked it up by being a doormat, so it is in fact his fault. 

 

JJ's problem is that he has zero vision.

And his lack of vision has ruined Star Wars now. Possibly forever!

[Giftheck 916]

8 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

JJ is one of the most successful directors working today. You really think he had zero input in the film he co-wrote and directed?

 

How did Rian Johnson get away with making TLJ if a far more famous director is being stiffled by Disney?

 

It really depends. Rian obviously had much greater creative control over TLJ than JJ had on TFA and after audience reception for TLJ, Disney was never going to allow that again, even if TLJ did make them a boatload of money. If Disney wanted the film this way and JJ wanted it another way, who's going to win overall?

 

What's there is mostly plausible enough to be possible, even if it's posted on a sub dedicated to Sequel hating. Ultimately, we will probably never truly know. It all more or less comes down to what @Blumenkohl said.

 

Also, Star Wars isn't 'ruined'. The non-Skywalker Saga stuff is and will probably still be going strong for a long time.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Just now, Stefancos said:

 

JJ's problem is that he has zero vision.

And his lack of vision has ruined Star Wars now. Possibly forever!

They will reboot it in 4 years with Junkie XL and no one will remember this trilogy.

 

We live in an era of disposable media,

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

3 minutes ago, Giftheck said:

Rian obviously had much greater creative control over TLJ than JJ had on TFA

 

Why "obviously"? What do you base that on?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

6 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

 

Why "obviously"? What do you base that on?

 

His bosses are typical board-room people. TFA got slammed for playing too safe. So they said give this guy creative freedom. 

 

TLJ got slammed for being too wild for Star Wars. So they said rein JJ in and do some fan service. 

 

These people are basically dumber than a toddler with very high salaries. 

 

TROS got slammed for being too much fan-service, so the next trilogy is going to be some “fresh-blood” controlled by one guy and told to make it his own Star Wars. If Dune does well, it’ll be Denis Villenefrenchist and it’ll be a more serious and gritty Star Wars.  

[gkgyver 1,645]

"During TFA, Disney was hesitant to hire John Boyega because a woman was front and center so they deemed that risky enough so bringing in a male lead who's black made them nervous."

 

LOL

What a bunch of psychos. 

[Edmilson 7,370]

That's one of the most idiotic especulations on the internet, and I've seen plenty.

 

J.J. is first and foremost a crowdpleaser, a director who knows how to produce stuff that critics may not all agree, but it will probably make a good chunk of the public happy. His movies/TV shows (or, better saying, products) may not be masterpieces or win the Palme d'Or at Cannes and the Golden Bear at Berlin, etc.,, but they please the majority of the audiences (with one exception, Into Darkness).

 

He was brought to TROS to make a lighter and more crowdpleasing Star Wars movie, unlike the dark and controversial The Last Jedi.

 

And he is the guy who put his name on definying, zeitgeist-capturing TV shows of the 2000s that enjoyed huge ratings, like Alias and Lost, and directed and produced successfull blockbusters movies, including the second movie to earn more than 2 billions at the box office on its original run (Titanic did it with re releases). 

 

Meanwhile, Rian Johnson was on the indie movie world, writing and directing stuff that critics and film nerds liked/loved, but weren't watched by a huge audience. Probably his biggest successes before TLJ were the Breaking Bad episodes he directed.

 

So yeah, I think Abrams has more power and leverage with movie studio bosses than Johnson ever did, and probably ever will have. This story of him being surprised with the final cut of TROS is probably utter internet bullshit - and one probably with more than a foot on sexism, putting the blame for the disaster on Kathleen Kennedy and not on him.

11 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

They will reboot it in 4 years with Junkie XL and no one will remember this trilogy.

 

 

But Junkie will direct the movie, star on it, write it, or all the three of them?

 

He doesn't look like a Jedi to me...  

 

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

6 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

That's one of the most idiotic especulations on the internet, and I've seen plenty.

 

J.J. is first and foremost a crowdpleaser, a director who knows how to produce stuff that critics may not all agree, but it will probably make a good chunk of the public happy. His movies/TV shows (or, better saying, products) may not be masterpieces or win the Palme d'Or at Cannes and the Golden Bear at Berlin, etc.,, but they please the majority of the audiences (with one exception, Into Darkness).

 

He was brought to TROS to make a lighter and more crowdpleasing Star Wars movie, unlike the dark and controversial The Last Jedi.

 

And he is the guy who put his name on definying, zeitgeist-capturing TV shows of the 2000s that enjoyed huge ratings, like Alias and Lost, and directed and produced successfull blockbusters movies, including the second movie to earn more than 2 billions at the box office on its original run (Titanic did it with re releases). 

 

Meanwhile, Rian Johnson was on the indie movie world, writing and directing stuff that critics and film nerds liked/loved, but weren't watched by a huge audience. Probably his biggest successes before TLJ were the Breaking Bad episodes he directed.

 

So yeah, I think Abrams has more power and leverage with movie studio bosses than Johnson ever did, and probably ever will have. This story of him being surprised with the final cut of TROS is probably utter internet bullshit - and one probably with more than a foot on sexism, putting the blame for the disaster on Kathleen Kennedy and not on him.

 

Your reasoning is terrible and divorced from the reality of film making. But at least you get right that the fault lies squarely with the director that signs his name in the credits. 

 

Quote

So yeah, I think Abrams has more power and leverage with movie studio bosses than Johnson ever did, and probably ever will have

 

He’s got a nascent $250 million deal with WB on the line, he’s not going to rock-the-boat and sour his reputation as the director who works well with suits. Whatever power he has, he is in a sticky spot and can’t exercise it without huge repercussions. And I don’t get the impression he is courageous enough to go down fighting for what he thinks is right. That’s the problem with JJ. He always delivers what the studio asks for. 

[Edmilson 7,370]

11 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

Your reasoning is terrible and divorced from the reality of film making. But at least you get right that the fault lies squarely with the director that signs his name in the credits. 

 

 

Wow, thanks for your insightful criticism of my post, made without a single inch of arrogance! With criticisms like this, we'll all contribute to make JWFan a greater forum for everyone!

 

12 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

He’s got a nascent $250 million deal with WB on the line, he’s not going to rock-the-boat and sour his reputation as the director who works well with suits. Whatever power he has, he is in a sticky spot and can’t exercise it without huge repercussions. And I don’t get the impression he is courageous enough to go down fighting for what he thinks is right. That’s the problem with JJ. He always delivers what the studio asks for. 

 

I agree with you... Or I would, IF I thought there was dispute (or the possibility of a dispute) concerning the final cut of TROS between Abrams and LFL.

 

As I said, JJ is a crowdpleaser, and he delivered the movie Lucasfilm thought it would please the fans and course correct the franchise after the divisive Episode VIII. The movie still were edited until the last minute, yeah, but because JJ (and LFL, of course) wanted it, not because Lucasfilm was worried with what he would deliver.

 

I'm not saying there weren't no preocupation, TROS was supposed to be the film that would make Star Wars unanimously beloved once again (or the closest thing to it, like the glowing reception the final two Avengers movies received from most fans and critics). But this preocupation was different than the one LFL had with Edwards on Rogue One and Lord/Miller on Solo. It may seem like a contradiction, but the way I see it JJ was to TROS what Ron Howard was to Solo, a more reliable director to deliver a product fans would love (in theory).

 

In other words, LFL trusted on JJ to deliver what fans expected, and the changes until they got to the final cut were made in agreement between the studio and the director. It's not like LFL stole the cut from him and did what they wanted, contradicting what Abrams tried to do.

 

Abrams is the guy who co-created and produced Lost and directed the biggest movie of all time on North America and the fourth biggest worldwide, on unadjusted grosses. He is no Zack Snyder, Gareth Edwards, David Ayer, David Fincher before Seven or, heck, even Tony Kaye - actually, very far from it.

[TSMefford 1,509]

@Edmilson You really think that Disney wouldn’t find a way to get their way no matter who was directing? 

 

I dont fully believe these rumors. Parts don’t make sense, but it would not surprise me in the slightest if it were true.

 

You act like directors are always in charge and will always get their way in collaboration with the studio and that is simply not true. Most of the time, it is somewhat true. But it’s certainly not out of the question for a studio, especially Disney to do what is stated here. The studio pays the bills, the studio is the giant corporation, and the studio WILL get what they want. We simply don’t know one way or the other what was in his contract.

 

I’m not going to defend the rumors, but I’m honestly surprised some people think something like this could or would never happen, yes, even to someone like JJ Abrams.

 

It’s the Disney “own everything” overlords for goodness sake. I highly doubt they’d let anything affect the bottom line.

 

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If JJ had final cut rights for TROS a studio really isn't allowed to mess with the cut he signs off on.

 

Simple as that.

 

Why would JJ, who's previous film made over 2 billion not demand final cut rights?

 

A lot of arguments here don't make sense to me.

[Giftheck 916]

55 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

So yeah, I think Abrams has more power and leverage with movie studio bosses than Johnson ever did, and probably ever will have. This story of him being surprised with the final cut of TROS is probably utter internet bullshit - and one probably with more than a foot on sexism, putting the blame for the disaster on Kathleen Kennedy and not on him.

 

It's funny you should say that because that particular post lays the blame squarely at Iger's feet, not Kennedy's.

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

Disney doesn’t dole out final cut rights. Either it’s Disney or it’s mutual (conditional on meeting release date obligations). 

[Alex 2,833]

I heard there’s a Kathleen Kennedy cut where it’s only footage of Rey

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

5 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

Why would JJ, who's previous film made over 2 billion not demand final cut rights?

 

[Giftheck 916]

1 minute ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

 

I assume you had something to say on the matter?

And I assume this was the comment in question.

 

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

3 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

Disney doesn’t dole out final cut rights. Either it’s Disney or it’s mutual (conditional on meeting release date obligations). 

[Giftheck 916]

Ah, so you meant to quote that and merge it with your reply, but got gazumped so it appeared as empty.

[TSMefford 1,509]

16 minutes ago, Stefancos said:

If JJ had final cut rights for TROS a studio really isn't allowed to mess with the cut he signs off on.

 

Simple as that.

 

Why would JJ, who's previous film made over 2 billion not demand final cut rights?

 

A lot of arguments here don't make sense to me.

 

They aren’t allowed to, but they might’ve. I really don’t think you’re giving studios enough credit for how crappy they can be. And as I said, who knows all the terms in his contract? I wouldn’t be surprised.

 

But I do agree that things don’t make sense. I’m just surprised people think a studio could never do something like this regardless of the Director.

 

The part I certainly don’t believe is Disney screwing up the movie to mess with JJ’s reputation and WB deal. That goes against the bottom line. Money. That bit honestly sounds like pure speculation on the source's part. IF there's a source at all. However, removing ghosts for China or all the other changes honestly don’t sound all that far fetched.

 

Again though, I would never be surprised to hear Disney messed with something in a dumb attempt to please too many and get more money.

 

11 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

Disney doesn’t dole out final cut rights. Either it’s Disney or it’s mutual (conditional on meeting release date obligations). 

 

I wouldn't know that for sure, but again, wouldn’t be surprised.

 

Seriously you guys this is DISNEY we’re talking about. You know, the same people who bought and now own Marvel, Star Wars, and an entire other giant movie studio? You really think JJ Abrams is enough to prevent them from doing whatever they want?

[BLUMENKOHL 1,068]

 

1 minute ago, Giftheck said:

Ah, so you meant to quote that and merge it with your reply, but got gazumped so it appeared as empty.

Yup

[publicist 4,643]

Well, what they *did* do was film a script and whatever scenes went missing, we still have the filmed scenes, all up on the big screen. What kind of cut scenes could salvage that shit?

[Edmilson 7,370]

35 minutes ago, Blumenkohl said:

Either it’s Disney or it’s mutual (conditional on meeting release date obligations). 

 

So I think it was almost certainly mutual. That's what I'm saying: Abrams is no Zack Snyder, there's no need for Disney/LFL/the Devil himself/John Williams/whoever the fuck it was to stole the cut from him and do it as they please, worsening the brilliant movie The Rise of Skywalker was when Abrams was editing it. It's simply ridiculous. 

 

Not like LFL and Disney to a larger extent didn't had done this before (R1, Solo, Thor: The Dark World, etc), but I just don't see a reason for them to do it without Abrams' agreement and/or involvement. He is too reliable and studio-friendly to get to this point.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Imagine outright denying that this reddit post could be right, after the whole movie and circumstances made it to the internet months before its premiere. 

[mstrox 6,637]

I'm outright denying that the reddit post could be right because it sounds like a really moronic conspiracy theory instead of an actual thing that would actually happen.

[publicist 4,643]

Anyone with the barest knowledge how such a movie ist set up logistically would just have a dirty laugh at the reality bending á la Reddit. Force ghosts, force sensitivity, longer death scenes, bla bla bla, the core of the story is on the screen and its main offenses would be as bad in a JJ cut, just that it would be less bumpy and jagged. It would probably have a better flow and still be moronic - the basic decisions were all made by that point.

 

 

[TSMefford 1,509]

8 minutes ago, publicist said:

Anyone with the barest knowledge how such a movie ist set up logistically would just have a dirty laugh at the reality bending á la Reddit. Force ghosts, force sensitivity, longer death scenes, bla bla bla, the core of the story is on the screen and its main offenses would be as bad in a JJ cut, just that it would be less bumpy and jagged. It would probably have a better flow and still be moronic - the basic decisions were all made by that point.

 

You know. You say that. But these days Disney shoots movies without finished scripts, without actors knowing who they're even talking to, scenes and key moments improvised or added at the last minute, changing directors midway through, comping actors into scenes just to keep a secret, etc. Not to mention whatever the hell happened with the production of Cats. I mean you even have films being drastically changed after dropping the first trailer (Sonic, New Mutants, etc.)

 

I have more than a bare knowledge of how things like this SHOULD be set-up, but that appears to go out the window a lot these days. I could honestly believe a good 65% of what's here. It's certainly not true, but some of you guys have too much faith in Hollywood and Disney. Some of these Blockbusters sound like nightmares these days. Hearing things like this don't shock me in the slightest. And honestly, THAT shocks me more than anything, that we're in a world where I wouldn't be surprised by this kind of stuff being true.

 

As a said, I don't believe the whole WB / Sabotaging JJ Abrams thing in the slightest. Doesn't make any sense. Maybe Disney did try to bid for Bad Robot, but there's no way they would try to make a bad film on purpose or change it simply for the sake of ruining a potential future Superman film that JJ might be involved with. That doesn't make sense. Disney wants money now. Studios hardly ever think big picture or play the long game with small chances of success. They wouldn't sabotage their own film on purpose.

 

I could believe changing stuff for China, even in the script phase. Happens often, see: Doctor Strange, Mulan, etc. I could believe Disney having ridiculous mandates for merchandise scenes, and other stuff like that. I definitely can believe Disney making a ton of last minute changes and being a pain throughout the post process, using ADR to change lines, CGI to replace or change things, even reshoots to patch up some changes. None of that is out of the question. I can also even believe a cut being done without JJ. It's happened before with other studios and directors. Just depends how desperate / under pressure for the money they felt.

 

What I will say also is that I like J.J.'s films. One thing he seems to always nail, without a doubt, is the pace (in my opinion). All his movies have an excellent sense of pace, and Rise of Skywalker does not have that. Wether this is because Disney stole the cut or because Abrams was still in charge of the cut, but still under immense pressure and studio notes, I don't know. Something feels off though. Probably another reason why I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of drama happened behind the scenes, which I do feel like something happened.

 

I mean the music for this movie certainly shows there was some sort of last minute changes and big shifts happening in the edit. An oddly large amount of tracked music from TFA/TLJ and the OT, cues chopped to bits, alternates and inserts, etc. I'm aware that most of that happens on the regular, but it also feels a bit more odd and abnormal than usual here.

 

None of us will likely ever know for sure. Lol. It's all just speculation. We can't say what happened or not at this point. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

https://www.awardsdaily.com/2019/12/24/star-wars-screenwriter-chris-terrio-on-ending-the-42-year-skywalker-saga/

 

This is so refreshingly candid and transparent and devastating.

 

Like it is so obvious they just made it up. There was no vision, no plan no nothing. They just went in and made an inoffensive product, off of a delivery line - like the parts of a car.

[TSMefford 1,509]

5 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

https://www.awardsdaily.com/2019/12/24/star-wars-screenwriter-chris-terrio-on-ending-the-42-year-skywalker-saga/

 

This is so refreshingly candid and transparent and devastating.

 

Like it is so obvious they just made it up. There was no vision, no plan no nothing. They just went in and made an inoffensive product, off of a delivery line - like the parts of a car.

 

Seems like a fine dude, even if the only thing of his writing I've ever liked is Argo.

[publicist 4,643]

35 minutes ago, TSMefford said:

You know. You say that. But these days Disney shoots movies without finished scripts, without actors knowing who they're even talking to, scenes and key moments improvised or added at the last minute, changing directors midway through, comping actors into scenes just to keep a secret, etc. Not to mention whatever the hell happened with the production of Cats. I mean you even have films being drastically changed after dropping the first trailer (Sonic, New Mutants, etc.)

 

I have more than a bare knowledge of how things like this SHOULD be set-up, but that appears to go out the window a lot these days. I could honestly believe a good 65% of what's here. It's certainly not true, but some of you guys have too much faith in Hollywood and Disney. Some of these Blockbusters sound like nightmares these days. Hearing things like this don't shock me in the slightest. And honestly, THAT shocks me more than anything, that we're in a world where I wouldn't be surprised by this kind of stuff being true.

 

The spin is that we have lost - maybe no masterpiece but a vastly better movie due to suits meddling. This is an ancient spin we've heard so many times  before, David, Goliath and so on. 

 

But nothing suggests this ever affected the script as such, just what i would label meat on the bones (mostly Di$ney seemed concerned keeping it below a certain length). And that these kind of movies are highly political due to their ability to make or break a studio or shareholder dividend, yeah well...they knew that before TFA.

 

So i'm not saying they didn't fuck with Abrams, just that it didn't matter much in the big scheme of things because the filmed script is stupid enough with the reborn emperor, idiot cameos and shit, so maybe, just maybe JJ did a good job of directing that carcass and all this is now some irrelevant additional fan drama - it just seems unlikely that  longer cut would present a vastly better vision of that particular 'saga's finish.

[TSMefford 1,509]

10 minutes ago, publicist said:

 

The spin is that we have lost - maybe no masterpiece but a vastly better movie due to suits meddling. This is an ancient spin we've heard so many times  before, David, Goliath and so on. 

 

But nothing suggests this ever affected the script as such, just what i would label meat on the bones (mostly Di$ney seemed concerned keeping it below a certain length). And that these kind of movies are highly political due to their ability to make or break a studio or shareholder dividend, yeah well...they knew that before TFA.

 

So i'm not saying they didn't fuck with Abrams, just that it didn't matter much in the big scheme of things because the filmed script is stupid enough with the reborn emperor, idiot cameos and shit, so maybe, just maybe JJ did a good job of directing that carcass and all this is now some irrelevant additional fan drama - it just seems unlikely that  longer cut would present a vastly better vision of that particular 'saga's finish.

 

Oh sure. I'm not saying Disney ever drastically changed the movie in post-production to the point where it would have been amazing, but it might have been a bet better than...just okay. I will say though that this alleged source was not involved until after a certain point in the script drafts (they claim they became involved after Lando was added to the script, apparently Lando was not in earlier drafts). So it's possible that Disney messed with them in script phase too, but who the hell knows. 

 

If there is a 3 hour JJ Cut, which I doubt, then I'd watch it out of curiosity, but I'd only expect it to take an Okay movie to an Alright movie place, maybe a Decent place. You'd probably have to ditch Chris Terrio completely to make it a good movie. Lol.

[publicist 4,643]

What Disney would gain by inserting 82-year old Billy Dee Williams into the proceedings will remain a secret. The script is a mess of bad fan service gone musty, and that's even without Lando. As it is, it's not nutty enough to really get cooking and too daft to be taken seriously. 

[TSMefford 1,509]

9 minutes ago, publicist said:

What Disney would gain by inserting 82-year old Billy Dee Williams into the proceedings will remain a secret.

 

Nostalgia, I guess? Everyone else is gone. Lol.

[TheUlyssesian 2,473]

15 minutes ago, publicist said:

What Disney would gain by inserting 82-year old Billy Dee Williams into the proceedings will remain a secret. The script is a mess of bad fan service gone musty, and that's even without Lando. As it is, it's not nutty enough to really get cooking and too daft to be taken seriously. 

 

Representation? You know that shit is important and all.

1 hour ago, TSMefford said:

 

You know. You say that. But these days Disney shoots movies without finished scripts, without actors knowing who they're even talking to, scenes and key moments improvised or added at the last minute, changing directors midway through, comping actors into scenes just to keep a secret, etc. Not to mention whatever the hell happened with the production of Cats. I mean you even have films being drastically changed after dropping the first trailer (Sonic, New Mutants, etc.)

 

I have more than a bare knowledge of how things like this SHOULD be set-up, but that appears to go out the window a lot these days. I could honestly believe a good 65% of what's here. It's certainly not true, but some of you guys have too much faith in Hollywood and Disney. Some of these Blockbusters sound like nightmares these days. Hearing things like this don't shock me in the slightest. And honestly, THAT shocks me more than anything, that we're in a world where I wouldn't be surprised by this kind of stuff being true.

 

As a said, I don't believe the whole WB / Sabotaging JJ Abrams thing in the slightest. Doesn't make any sense. Maybe Disney did try to bid for Bad Robot, but there's no way they would try to make a bad film on purpose or change it simply for the sake of ruining a potential future Superman film that JJ might be involved with. That doesn't make sense. Disney wants money now. Studios hardly ever think big picture or play the long game with small chances of success. They wouldn't sabotage their own film on purpose.

 

I could believe changing stuff for China, even in the script phase. Happens often, see: Doctor Strange, Mulan, etc. I could believe Disney having ridiculous mandates for merchandise scenes, and other stuff like that. I definitely can believe Disney making a ton of last minute changes and being a pain throughout the post process, using ADR to change lines, CGI to replace or change things, even reshoots to patch up some changes. None of that is out of the question. I can also even believe a cut being done without JJ. It's happened before with other studios and directors. Just depends how desperate / under pressure for the money they felt.

 

What I will say also is that I like J.J.'s films. One thing he seems to always nail, without a doubt, is the pace (in my opinion). All his movies have an excellent sense of pace, and Rise of Skywalker does not have that. Wether this is because Disney stole the cut or because Abrams was still in charge of the cut, but still under immense pressure and studio notes, I don't know. Something feels off though. Probably another reason why I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of drama happened behind the scenes, which I do feel like something happened.

 

I mean the music for this movie certainly shows there was some sort of last minute changes and big shifts happening in the edit. An oddly large amount of tracked music from TFA/TLJ and the OT, cues chopped to bits, alternates and inserts, etc. I'm aware that most of that happens on the regular, but it also feels a bit more odd and abnormal than usual here.

 

None of us will likely ever know for sure. Lol. It's all just speculation. We can't say what happened or not at this point. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

 

 

They should never hire directors like Clint Eastwood or Michael Haneke or some of these old fogeys. Because some of these old fogeys - shoot the fucking script. Come what may.

 

They will tell the suits - you fucking greenlit this screenplay and this is exactly what you are going to get.

 

I am a budding scriptwriter myself (so far have written 1.5 screenplays) and I can say this that it all starts with the script. It has to be as final as possible before filming begins.

 

These days, you don't need a script to green light a movie, you need a release date. Not even a title is necessary these days.

[TSMefford 1,509]

31 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I am a budding scriptwriter myself (so far have written 1.5 screenplays) and I can say this that it all starts with the script. It has to be as final as possible before filming begins.

 

These days, you don't need a script to green light a movie, you need a release date. Not even a title is necessary these days.

 

Oh agreed. That's how it should be done. Oh well! 

[Alex 2,833]

They had an 80 year old Billy Dee Williams punching punch bags to get into shape for 5 minutes of screen time

[mrbellamy 6,270]

Well it seems like he's still at with his trainers so if it's extending his life, more power to him

 

 

 

Someday we might look back on this and decide that saving Billy Dee Williams was the one decent thing we were able to pull out of this whole godawful shitty mess

[Chen G. 3,941]

Say what you will about Billy Dee Williams’ involvement in this film, there’s one scene with him which to my mind is by far the best of the whole movie. That being, Poe sitting by Leia’s corpse, full of self incredulity only for Lando to come and tell that back in their day they too had nothing but each other.

 

Its actually a wonderful, wonderful moment: it just needed about twice the runtime that it actually got.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

8 hours ago, Blumenkohl said:

 

🇨🇳  

 

It takes more than a bit of lip service to the Chinese. They'd be better off making Palpatine grow into a giant monster rampaging through Coruscant and Rey has to pilot the mecha Reybot to fight him.

[Arpy 4,145]

Can we just hold up and go back to that rumour about Williams' original music being toyed with for the scene with Kylo vs. The Knights of Ren. That music is incredible and doesn't seem to betray any musical ideal in the film - it's Kylo and Rey's themes united! 

 

I find it hard to believe that the music for that scene went over Williams' head, it's an important musical moment in the film and score.

 

How much is anyone willing to bet it was the sourpuss reddit brigade who wanted some epic showdown music ala Duel of the Fates? Hearing that scene for a second time, it's pure magic, it's very detailed and if you don't pay attention you'll miss them all - especially for the casual viewer who can't remember anything about the music.

[Unlucky Bastard 7,782]

7 hours ago, TSMefford said:

some of you guys have too much faith in Hollywood and Disney

 

I keep saying it but no-one else sees it, but Disney has become a like a cult or religious sect that nurtured the hearts and minds of its juvenile minions in the 1990s with overhyped cartoons for little girls, creating a legion of Millennial Disbots whose unwavering loyalty stands firmly with the corporate brand of Mickey.

 

Not me though. I was a Bugs Bunny kid in the 1990s.

[Not Mr. Big 4,639]

1 hour ago, Arpy said:

 

How much is anyone willing to bet it was the sourpuss reddit brigade who wanted some epic showdown music ala Duel of the Fates? 

THIS!