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The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread


Jay

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That line alone made me think the post was BS. I didn't really notice anything off with the music, nor do I imaging JJ did (I don't think that is something that someone at Disney would have tampered with, so it was probably JJ's choice to use that cue there). It seemed just like an obscure bit of wishful thinking on the poster's part. As Arpy said, he probably wanted something "EPIC!!!"

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If Disney really took over the production demanding more fan service, isn't it more likely Duel of the Fates would've been pasted over the whole score?

 

I think the simpler explanation is JJ just made a bad movie, and an associate of his is trying to push the blame onto Disney (knowing the toxic fandom hate Disney/KK/RJ and blame them for everything wrong with the ST).

 

It's not like JJ has some flawless record, especially with sequels (Star Trek Into Darkness was hot garbage too).

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4 hours ago, Þekþiþm said:

I'm impressed Williams didn't resort to his usual church music schtick in TROS like he did in TLJ and the prequels.

 

And I'm disappointed he didn't do just that :( 

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I disagree. They give gravitas to a dramatic, climatic battle, and helps diferentiating the music from the other action music on the score. Choir battles were everywhere on the 2000s, probably due to the success of Duel of the Fates:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And that's not even counting for older examples, like Dark Side Beckons, which gave an epic, tragic quality to the last battle for the galaxy on ROTJ:

 

 

Now compare this with the bland music Desplat wrote for the final confrontation between Harry and Voldy on Deathly Hallows 2:

 

 

Silvestri showed more enthusiasm in scoring the fight between Brendan Fraser, a bald ressurected mummy and a horribly digitalized The Rock than the last battle for the fate of the whole universe on the biggest franchise of Hollywood:

 

 

I'm glad that TROS has more choir than the previous two sequel trilogy movies, but still, I think a bigger presence at the very least on TLJ and TROS would've been great.

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I don't get it, you guys are dismissing the scores of The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, the prequels, Dark Side Beckons, etc., as being just trailer music? The idea of what a simpleton with no musical knowledge, like myself, have of what good music is?

 

Well, okay then. Guess I'll have to stop listening to these scores and go have a phD in musical theory or something, then I'll go back to here, where we can diss how horrible these kinds of scores are.

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4 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I don't get it, you guys are dismissing the scores of The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, the prequels, Dark Side Beckons, etc., as being just trailer music? The idea of what a simpleton with no musical knowledge, like myself, have of what good music is?

 

Well, okay then. Guess I'll have to stop listening to these scores and go have a phD in musical theory or something, then I'll go back to here, where we can diss how horrible these kinds of scores are.

 

It's fine in moderation, but when it roars constantly for, I dunno, "da feelz", I just get bored and tune out.

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9 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I don't get it, you guys are dismissing the scores of The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, the prequels, Dark Side Beckons, etc., as being just trailer music? The idea of what a simpleton with no musical knowledge, like myself, have of what good music is?

 

Well, okay then. Guess I'll have to stop listening to these scores and go have a phD in musical theory or something, then I'll go back to here, where we can diss how horrible these kinds of scores are.

 

It's just a matter of taste.  I'm not very big on scores that take Wagnerian pomposity and dial it up to 11 for extended periods of time, personally.  A little bit goes a long way for me.  I love the LOTR scores, Shore does the operatic thing better than anyone, but in terms of which one I listen to on its own the most for pleasure, it's definitely Fellowship, the least grandiose one (but still plenty grandiose!).

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9 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

I don't get it, you guys are dismissing the scores of The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, the prequels, Dark Side Beckons, etc., as being just trailer music? The idea of what a simpleton with no musical knowledge, like myself, have of what good music is?

 

Who talks about scores, you talk about 'moments'. The way it's advertised above is *exactly* the kind of knee-jerk louder-is-better philosophy you and many others automatically confuse with great music. And often it's not, simply due to the fact that it's the easiest, musically boring way to convince people they just witnessed the second coming. 

 

Problem is, when every third-rate trailer uses it, how can it still achieve said effect? Boggles the mind.

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I think Williams' ST scores would've been treated far kinder in the sound mix if he'd continued the type of choral excess of the prequels. It forces the sound guys to tone down their effects to allow for both vocal and orchestral elements in the mix, rather than just orchestral (which can easily be dialed down in the mix, and it clearly was).

 

Instead, many scenes abandon score altogether simply because the effects are so loud (such as the ocean battle). 

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7 minutes ago, crumbs said:

I think Williams' ST scores would've been treated far kinder in the sound mix if he'd continued the type of choral excess of the prequels.

 

No, if the church music is constantly omnipresent in an attempt to highlight everything as a moment of grand significance, then nothing is significant.

 

12 minutes ago, publicist said:

And often it's not, simply due to the fact that it's the easiest, musically boring way to convince people they just witnessed the second coming. 

 

Good thing The Final Conflict has it in the sweet spots.

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And also mixes it with musically more interesting devices, i. e. the satanic whispering in 'The Second Coming'. Most of Williams' ROTS isn't apocalyptic, excuse me, 'operatic' chorals, either. Key scenes are scored with adagio-writing that occasionally features mixed chorus. 

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2 hours ago, publicist said:

Who talks about scores, you talk about 'moments'. The way it's advertised above is *exactly* the kind of knee-jerk louder-is-better philosophy you and many others automatically confuse with great music. And often it's not, simply due to the fact that it's the easiest, musically boring way to convince people they just witnessed the second coming. 

 

Problem is, when every third-rate trailer uses it, how can it still achieve said effect? Boggles the mind.

 

Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying you know my tastes in film music better than myself? 

 

It's not like "has EPIC choir = better score", otherwise, I would have loved the variation Lorne Balfe did with choir for the Mission: Impossible theme on Fallout (I didn't). Or some scores for blockbusters from people like Steve Jablonsky or Rupert Gregson-Williams.

 

Heck, Giacchino uses choir constantly, and most of the time it's unremarkable, like Doctor Strange.

 

It's not the use of choir per se, it's HOW it's used and WHEN it's used. If Williams scored every action scene on the Sequel Trilogy with Duel of the Fates and Battle of the Heroes, it would be indeed tiresome and dull.

 

The examples I posted above are from climactic battles on their movies (with the exception of the Two Towers one, which occurs at the beginning): Neo vs Smith in Revolutions, Frodo vs Gollum in ROTK, Rick vs Imhotep vs Scorpion King in TMR,  Anakin vs Obi Wan in ROTS, Na'Vi vs human army in Avatar, Luke vs Vader and the Emperor in ROTJ. 

 

The use of choir on these scenes elevated them to operatic levels, giving them a tragic, epic quality, and highlighting to the viewer that this is the end, the last battle for the fate of the world/galaxy, everything is on stake... It's not just an action scene, it's THE final confrontation between heroes and villains.

 

It was usual to use choir on climactic battles until a few years ago. These days (as I highlighted with Deathly Hallows 2 and Endgame) they're scored like every action scene on the movie, with bombast, but little to diferentiate them from other action music on the same score.

 

As for the argument that these horrid trailer music are using fake choir it all the time, well, that's not really the fault of the composers, is it? "Oh, I won't write an outstanding piece for this movie because some third-rate trailer house will do an awful variation of it". 

 

Even still, I prefer when trailers use their imitation of film scores than those horrendous "slow, dark and disturbing" covers of pop hits, like this crap:

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Edmilson said:

Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying you know my tastes in film music better than myself? 

 

I understand all the links you posted and these are a sample of exactly that mentality, even if some are better executed than others (never was a fan of Shore's clumsy monster choirs). In 2020, it's just a terrible idea for a composer to punish audiences with this very same approach yet again. And i won't even go into Williams eschewing these things if not pummeled into them by the filmmakers: he clearly understands it's a tool that needs to be finely dosed to be effective.

 

 

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On Williams' case, I don't blame him as much as, for instance, Silvestri on Endgame, because I understood that he wanted to give TROS a more emotional climax, with Rey's theme and a more optimistic variation of Kylo's theme battling the Emperor's theme, not just being bombast for the sake of it.

 

Personally, I wasn't involved that much with that climax because I didn't like the movie. That said, despite the awful tracking, there was still some great moments, like Farewell.

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I didn't notice such approach in RoS, there was a short a capella choir outbreak that was very precisely synched to a certain moment, nothing like the suggested wholesale plastering of DOTF (no relation to any of the characters onscreen).

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While I think the use of choir in a score like ROTS is brilliant, a part of me desires orchestra only tracks on a hypothetical complete score release. I'm not sure if it was all recorded together, but Battle of the Heroes (orchestra) is a dream track. Kinda like Home Alone 2 where those silly Christmas song lyrics were abolished back to the netherworld from which they came.

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18 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

 

It's just a matter of taste.  I'm not very big on scores that take Wagnerian pomposity and dial it up to 11 for extended periods of time, personally.  A little bit goes a long way for me.  I love the LOTR scores, Shore does the operatic thing better than anyone, but in terms of which one I listen to on its own the most for pleasure, it's definitely Fellowship, the least grandiose one (but still plenty grandiose!).

I would take the last cues of Return of the King, just beautifully serene music, like a long relaxing sigh after a hard day. The Two Towers is more laid back in the middle with all the Rohan material developing, but then that goes for most scores - you're going to have moments of clarity and calm and moments of pure chaos and action. 

 

If one series is allowed to go full on epic choral majesty, it's Lord of the Rings. Revenge of the Sith is quite tame in comparison with respect to the choir.

9 hours ago, crumbs said:

Yes, it's completely irrelevant why a formerly dead villain is suddenly alive.

 

I like the idea floating around that it's Palpatine's spirit possessing his corpse. 

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1 hour ago, Arpy said:

I would take the last cues of Return of the King, just beautifully serene music, like a long relaxing sigh after a hard day. The Two Towers is more laid back in the middle with all the Rohan material developing, but then that goes for most scores - you're going to have moments of clarity and calm and moments of pure chaos and action. 

 

If one series is allowed to go full on epic choral majesty, it's Lord of the Rings. Revenge of the Sith is quite tame in comparison with respect to the choir.

 

Yes, the huge epic choir is done with more taste and judgment by Shore than anyone else, he knows how to structure a piece of music for dramatic impact.  I was just saying that FOTR is the one I naturally gravitate to more because the musical scope is slightly more restrained.

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I agree with the above.

 

I feel even Hayden Christensen's much reviled Anakin and even Portman's Padme are better defined and more fleshed out characters than Rey, Finn and Poe. These last 3 are just racing from plot point to plot point with not a moment to breathe.

 

1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

Adam Driver has, after the prologue, maybe three lines of dialogue without his helmet.

 

Is this true?

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20 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

While I think the use of choir in a score like ROTS is brilliant, a part of me desires orchestra only tracks on a hypothetical complete score release. I'm not sure if it was all recorded together, but Battle of the Heroes (orchestra) is a dream track. Kinda like Home Alone 2 where those silly Christmas song lyrics were abolished back to the netherworld from which they came.

 

Santa is here again YES

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It really is unfortunate that there were so many last-minute changes that happened that weren't for the best. John Boyega's comments about Rey are weird, though. I never got any sense of a romance between Finn and Rey. It seemed way more like brother and sister. He was probably upset with some other choice that Disney made and needed to blow some steam.

 

Also, JJ said that Rey and Kylo are like brother and sister in TFA--and I have to disagree. They see inside each other's heads. That's much more invasive than what a sibling relationship would be. It's also weird that in the leaks that came out in September/October or whenever, Rey and Kylo didn't kiss. Sure, it wasn't necessary, but Disney really put it in at the last minute because they wanted to please a group of fans? That's why I think social media is really hurting so many films and TV shows. (Like what happened with Kelly Marie Tran, too--JJ or Disney or both thought they should pretty much leave her out of TROS? Come on)

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5 hours ago, TheUlyssesian said:

Is this true?

 

I'm not sure... He is without his helmet for most of the second half of the movie (duel with Rey on Kef Bir, confrontation with the Emperor on Exegol), right? 

 

But still, I've been reading Scott's column for almost 5 years, and he is known for making some exagerated statements like that, lol.

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I agree with his column totally but I don't think the Kylo part is true. Scenes without the helmet include him revealing Rey's parentage in the hanger, his brief chat with Rey inside the Death Star, and his chat with his dad. Certainly more than 3 lines, though I can't think of any other instances.

 

He doesn't have any dialogue after the Han Solo chat, that much I know.

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5 minutes ago, crumbs said:

He doesn't have any dialogue after the Han Solo chat

 

Woah really? That's kinda weird

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1 hour ago, Jay said:

 

Woah really? That's kinda weird

 

I don't mind it, personally. Ben's change of heart was conveyed by Driver's performance. Frankly I'm stunned JJ didn't give him dialogue to explain what he was doing, seeing as he treats the audience like idiots for the first two acts (and felt compelled to spell out every convoluted plot detail via incessant dialogue, rather than visual/musical storytelling). 

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Can you imagine how JJ would write wholly musical/visual sequences like Paige's sacrifice in TLJ? That sequence is like two minutes long without a single word of dialogue; Johnson's visual storytelling is just superb, and paired with Williams' musical talent? Perfection. 

 

JJ would plaster it with idiotic dialogue. "I need to climb this ladder, because my pilot is dead! I'm trying to grab the detonator! I'm falling backwards because of an explosion! Ahhhhh! Look, I caught the detonator as it fell past my head!" 

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Questions for those of you who pay more attention to these things than I do:

 

Is there a name for the red zone in space everyone has to go through the get to Exegol?

 

Is there a name for the building on Exegol that Kylo meets the Emperor in and sees the Snoke clones?

 

Is the room where all the final confrontations happen just called the throne room?

 

Who or what are the observers during all this?  Dead Sith?  Living Sith?  Just regular people who worship Palpatine?

 

When Rey draws a saber to kill The Emperor, but then sends it to Kylo instead and he uses it to kill all the Knights of Ren, was that Luke's saber or Leia's saber that she gave him?

 

Thanks!

 

 

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@Jay Rey sends Ben the reforged Luke saber, whilst she uses Leia's. It's fitting that it should be that way since Kylo said that the Saber belonged to him in the previous film.

 

I believe the hooded people on Exegol are Sith Loyalists or Cultists. Palpatine calls them his 'Faithful' if I'm not mistaken.

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Those guys on Palpatine's hideout were probably Sith cultists, people who don't possess their powers, but admire and study the Sith culture anyway. In other words, they're Sith fanboys, lol.

 

Remember Max von Sydow's character, which they said it was a Jedi scholar or something, but not a Jedi per se? I guess it's something like this, but with Sith.

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