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The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

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On 1/8/2020 at 3:17 AM, Arpy said:

I seriously don't have the energy to think critically of these films as I once did. They're meant to be family flicks with magic and laserswords - that's the Star Wars I grew up with.

 

And cuddly bears, don't forget the cuddly bears

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1 hour ago, Balahkay said:

There was barely any time for the KOR as it is.  Johnson should have utilized them in TLJ. 

 

Indeed. As much as I like the design of the Praetorian Guard, it would've been cool if the Knights of Ren were used instead.

 

Maybe there could've been a subplot on TLJ on which the Knights, after the defeat on Starkiller, are getting more and more alienated from Kylo (which they think it's a weak leader) and gravitating more towards Snoke. This would reach its climax when Kylo killed Snoke, leading his Knights to turning against him.

 

Of course, JJ being JJ, this would get redone on TROS: "Not all Knights of Ren betrayed Kylo at the battle on the Supremacy, some of them stayed loyal, yada yada yada..."

 

4 hours ago, crumbs said:

I'm sure all these important details will be explained in some book or something, years later when nobody cares anymore. A bit like Sifo-Dyas (I figured it was a proxy of Sidious). 

 

Star Wars was always like this, details about the universe would get explained on books, comics, cartoons, etc. The difference is that the movies used to be satisfying by themselves, like, a random person could watch and enjoy them without getting lost on the story, while superfans could get more details outside of the movies.

 

TROS is nothing like that, with its borderline incoherent narrative. Another problem that plagued Crimes of Grindelwald as well.

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Rian knew Snoke's guards had to be killed so he intentionally didn't waste the Knights so 9 could do better things with them. He says so in the commentary I think.

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That's actually very depressing. The intention was that the Knight would play a big role on IX, but they ended up just being relegated to a ridiculous and small role.

 

And even if comics/cartoons/whatever eventually tries bringing them some dignity through prequels, the damage is already done, considering their ridiculous demise on TROS.

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1 hour ago, Edmilson said:

TROS is nothing like that, with its borderline incoherent narrative. Another problem that plagued Crimes of Grindelwald as well.

 

Good comparison, actually.

 

The difference being that Crimes of Grindelwald isn't a concluding chapter. Those have to be held to a higher standard.

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6 hours ago, Edmilson said:

TROS is nothing like that, with its borderline incoherent narrative

 

How is it even borderline incoherent?  I thought it was spelled out pretty well. 

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5 hours ago, Arpy said:

According to Wookiepedia, the KoR are also Force-sensitive but no evidence of this is suggested in the film.


Yeah but didn’t you read that comic from four years ago, Kylo’s Krazy Kerfuffle, issue 14, page 24 - clearly explains how the Knights of Ren are force sensitive. 

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:(

 

Quote

STAR WARS: THE RISE OF SKYWALKER Killed Off Another Original Trilogy Character And No One Even Noticed

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker has proved to be controversial for a number of reasons, and it's now been revealed that yet another fan-favourite character was killed off...and nobody even noticed!

172591.jpg

There were a few noteworthy casualties in Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker, and we now have another to add to the list which bound to come as a shock to longtime fans of the franchise.

 

In Return of the Jedi, we met Nien Nunb, an alien who served as Lando Calrissian's co-pilot aboard the Millennium Falcon. Since then, he's become something of a fan-favourite and also ended up playing a minor role in the sequel trilogy. Well, his time has come to an end, because the author of

 

The Rise of Skywalker: Expanded Edition novel has confirmed that Nunb died during the battle of Exegol. 

 

Apparently, after Emperor Palpatine hurled his Force lightning into the sky above, the Tantive IV fell from the sky and unlike Poe Dameron and many of the other Resistance fighters, the beloved alien and his co-pilot Urcos Furdam were unable to regain control of the ship and died as it exploded.

 

What a way to go, eh? 

 

Perhaps the biggest loss here is the Tantive IV being completely destroyed despite it making its surprise return in The Rise of Skywalker. According to the writer of the aforementioned book, this is a moment which can actually be seen in the movie itself, so we'll have to comb through that sequence once it arrives on Blu-ray to see if that is indeed the case. 

 

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-killed-off-another-original-trilogy-character-and-no-one-even-noticed-a172591

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19 minutes ago, Demodex said:

I read this morning that the movie may have been edited in such a way that the Tantive IV isn't destroyed onscreen and Nien Numb is still alive. 

 

« Thanks. » - The guy who wrote a novel that is about to be released and where this spaceship and character are featured.

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20 minutes ago, mstrox said:

There’s no escaping the fact that this series should have remained two movies long rather than nine.

 

Say what you want about the Ewoks and the neutering of Han Solo - ROTJ is still a good, fun movie. The "getting the gang back together" first act at Jabba's palace is great. The Special Edition musical number can go jump off a cliff.

 

Ewoks are fine... they're carnivorous little Critters, what's not to like? You know they ate the stormtroopers at the end - that's how they have all those helmets. And how metal is it that they are literally playing music using the helmets of slaughtered foes? Lots of fun.

 

Too bad the OST sounds so muted for ROTJ. What's up with that? 

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25 minutes ago, Fargo said:

 

Say what you want about the Ewoks and the neutering of Han Solo - ROTJ is still a good, fun movie. The "getting the gang back together" first act at Jabba's palace is great. The Special Edition musical number can go jump off a cliff.

 

Ewoks are fine... they're carnivorous little Critters, what's not to like? You know they ate the stormtroopers at the end - that's how they have all those helmets. And how metal is it that they are literally playing music using the helmets of slaughtered foes? Lots of fun.

 

Too bad the OST sounds so muted for ROTJ. What's up with that? 

 

I'm just poking fun.  I like all 11 Star Wars movies to varying degrees.

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6 hours ago, Chen G. said:

There’s no escaping the fact that this series should have remained six-movies long rather than nine.

No. They shouldn't have forced a gigantic storyline into the last film.

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43 minutes ago, Arpy said:

Is Rey's journey resolved by the end of TRoS? 

 

She spends the trilogy looking for belonging. Arguably, by calling herself a Skywalker, she has found it.

 

Musically, the deconstructed fragments of her theme in A New Home (none of which are the signature melody), interpolated around an entirely new melodic idea, seems to reiterate this completed journey.

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2 hours ago, Arpy said:
1 hour ago, crumbs said:

 

She spends the trilogy looking for belonging. Arguably, by calling herself a Skywalker, she has found it.

 

Musically, the deconstructed fragments of her theme in A New Home (none of which are the signature melody), interpolated around an entirely new melodic idea, seems to reiterate this completed journey.

 

 

So, when I look for a new belonging, I'll just skim through the obituaries in the paper and pick a name. Good to know. 

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9 minutes ago, Chen G. said:

Another interview with Chris Terrio, again suggesting that The Rise of Skywalker was made without any foundations in the way of a "plan"

 

https://www.polygon.com/star-wars/2019/12/5/20996444/star-wars-rise-of-skywalker-ending-chris-terrio-interview-skywalker-saga

 

Have you watched the film? Ofcourse it wasn't.

Its actually a very poor sequel to the two films that preceded it.

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So I'm going to be pathetic and reveal the plot ideas that have bounced around my head for weeks, that could have made Rise of Skywalker somewhat better, and actually live up to is name.

 

The gap between the second and third films in each trilogy builds some significance into each trilogy: in the Prequels, they bookend the monumental Clone Wars; in the Originals, the capture and rescue of Han, and the reveal of Luke's self-styled Jedi level-up. The gap between Ep 8 and 9 is useless, only blandly revealing that the Emperor's back and everybody already knows except us, until now. Bad storytelling.

 

Hide the Emperor. Kylo Ren is chasing the Rebels across the galaxy, fighting alongside his Knights of Ren so as to build a relationship with them that pays off with his betrayal later. Despite his victories, a Snokey/Palpatine voice is goading him to be as badass as Vader, which he's not, so he's getting stressed and losing his shit as a result. He researches the Sith further (on Dathomir, of course, EU fans) to try to find his place in that lineage, and he knows that Sith apprentices ascend by killing their masters, but even though he killed Snoke he doesn't feel like the boss yet. He also wrestles with the fact that badass Darth Vader did turn to the light side. Then he finds Palpatine, and doesn't feel up to the task of ending him...all the more reason to track down Rey, which the Emperor tasks him with. Along the way he is being dragged to the light... Leia forgives him the murder of his father and Luke admits to letting him down - "it wasn't your fault, but what happens now is your responsiblity": key insights into the Light side for Ben Solo.

 

Rey is not a Palpatine. As we learn in The Last Jedi, anyone could be with the Force, and she must find her own way. She trains with Leia but Leia is using her efforts to contact Ben - it's one way of bringing down the First Order from within, and the Rebels have little else. They attempt to drum up support from resistance sympathisers, but find people too intimidated. Rose, Maz and Dominic Monaghan help with this. Finn and Poe bicker, but amidst the stress of their slim odds, find a way towards solidarity. Finn, Poe and Rey follow a daring lead to Kamino, where the once-proud arch-cloners are enslaved to the First Order; they reveal their technology has been used to resurrect Palpatine and build more armies, and the Kaminoans prepare to overthrow their masters secretly, then help the heroes escape.

 

Their next lead takes them to Geonosis. They discover a new droid army that is arming a new fleet - we build towards the threat of the finale. Better to wrap up the galaxy and revisit celebrated locations with new eyes, rather than throw in endless new planets that have no character. As Kylo Ren tracks them down, yes, Rey does actually kill Chewie. This sends her towards the dark side; she can't control her power, nobody is here to train her, her Jedi master was essentially a coward. And the familiar temptation: the dark side has more powers.

 

A new lead sends them to the Old Death Star as we have as seen (resistance fighters help, but you can cut the horses). Before their duel, Kylo Ren senses that Rey has been beckoned by Palpatine too. Rey bests Kylo Ren in a duel, during which she destroys his helmet, they accidentally swap lightsabres and she kills (then heals) him when he is distracted by Leia. She flees further into the dark side. Ben Solo is shamed, no ship, no helmet, no lightsabre, and he starts to see he has no place as the most badass Sith. Then ghost-dad forgives him too. Conflicted Rey heads for Palpatine's lair, Ben Solo gives chase, anguished now more than angry.

 

The Resistance sends out its call for the end-game battle. They can't be sure Rey is able to destroy Palpatine, but they know they have to wipe out his clone facility and the sprawling new droid-operated fleet. That requires a team of commando engineers and fighters (enter Rose, Maz, Finn and others) to sneak into the command centre and set the destroyers against one another (no ragtag rebel fleet could actually wipe them out). Threepio's protocol droidery and R2's hacking skills are instrumental, BB8 can't have all the action. They also need to locate the cloning centre so that X-Wings and bombers etc. can destroy it. The battle reaches desperate lows, sacrifices are made, plans change on the hoof and they have to prevent rogue destroyers from reaching orbit.


Rey faces Palpatine, and he obviously tries to draw her to the dark side, even goading her to kill him. "Strike me down and I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine". She refuses and is bested by him, but Ben Solo arrives, conflicted. His Knights aren't convinced by his allegiance and they fight him, and in destroying his old students of darkness he truly becomes 'light side' (mirroring the reason he turned dark in the first place, the student betrayed by master). Ben comes to Rey's aid. He reveals that Palpatine's Sith ghost needs anchoring to a body, that the cloning facility is destroyed and that they could destroy him together. It takes a sacrifice on Ben's part to do so, and the Sith ancestor ghosts flee as there is now no longer a master OR apprentice. Rey says farewell to a dying Ben.


Stormtrooper squads press in on the heroes trapped in the destroyed clone facility, and they are nearly done for. Rose and Finn's relationship is forged in their expectation of death. But with the stormtroopers' leaders, the resurrection tech and the fleet gone, and surrounded by rebel ships, they are fighting to the death. Finn (dressed in stormtrooper guard since sneaking in) addresses them over comms and uses his history as one of their own to persuade them to put down their weapons and go free as individuals. They take off their helmets to greet each other as people, some of them are Jango clones, but must still find their way as people. The rebels take them in. The Empire is not only destroyed, but dissolved. The light side wins by virtue of peace.


The rebels celebrate, Chewie is memorialised with his long-awaited medal, and Han, Luke, Leia and Chewie, the 4 heroes of the Yavin Throne Room are finally gone. We find out what might be next for each hero: Poe has gone from smuggler, to hero-pilot, to... Republic general? Finn and Rose help the Republic, with Lando's help, to rebuild the parts of the galaxy destroyed by the wars. Rey does Jedi outreach in all the hard-up places they have visited, including Jakku, and spread the word of that mysterious myth: the Force. She finds one of those kids from The Last Jedi who has force powers. She ends up where she started (not necessarily permanently), but she is changed, and there are no more wars, only patient help towards the needy, and the possibility of an apprentice... the fate of a Jedi of the Light.

 

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TROS finished its fourth weekend with $478m domestic and $990m worldwide, which is, of course, not a bomb by any means, but still depressing for this franchise.

 

On US, it's BO is pretty much the same as Rogue One's after its fourth weekend, which is utterly humiliating. TROS is the finale of the Sequel Trilogy and the Skywalker Saga according to Lucasfilm, while R1 is a spin-off that features no previously known characters for the franchise. Also, R1 opened with about $20m LESS than TROS.

 

If it performs like R1 from now, it finishes its career with $533m, but if it performs like TLJ or Civil War, it will get to about $523m, which will be below 2019's TLK and, of course, below Rogue One.

 

To make matters worse, it'll probably finishes its career below the $540m adjusted BO of R1 or, in other words, it will have take less people to the theaters than Rogue One.

 

I'll say it again: The Rise of Skywalker, the finale of a nine movie saga, will end its career have taken less people to the theaters than fucking Rogue One. Now let that sink in.

 

Also, its foreign performance is pretty bad as well, with its cumulated foreign performance being well below stuff like Aladdin, Toy Story 4 and Hobbs and Shaw.

 

Again, not a flop and Disney will still make money out of this, but, when you compare with the other SW movies, or even other blockbusters, it's disappointing, to say the least.

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6 hours ago, Miz said:

So I'm going to be pathetic and reveal the plot ideas that have bounced around my head for weeks, that could have made Rise of Skywalker somewhat better, and actually live up to is name.

 

The gap between the second and third films in each trilogy builds some significance into each trilogy: in the Prequels, they bookend the monumental Clone Wars; in the Originals, the capture and rescue of Han, and the reveal of Luke's self-styled Jedi level-up. The gap between Ep 8 and 9 is useless, only blandly revealing that the Emperor's back and everybody already knows except us, until now. Bad storytelling.

 

Hide the Emperor. Kylo Ren is chasing the Rebels across the galaxy, fighting alongside his Knights of Ren so as to build a relationship with them that pays off with his betrayal later. Despite his victories, a Snokey/Palpatine voice is goading him to be as badass as Vader, which he's not, so he's getting stressed and losing his shit as a result. He researches the Sith further (on Dathomir, of course, EU fans) to try to find his place in that lineage, and he knows that Sith apprentices ascend by killing their masters, but even though he killed Snoke he doesn't feel like the boss yet. He also wrestles with the fact that badass Darth Vader did turn to the light side. Then he finds Palpatine, and doesn't feel up to the task of ending him...all the more reason to track down Rey, which the Emperor tasks him with. Along the way he is being dragged to the light... Leia forgives him the murder of his father and Luke admits to letting him down - "it wasn't your fault, but what happens now is your responsiblity": key insights into the Light side for Ben Solo.

 

Rey is not a Palpatine. As we learn in The Last Jedi, anyone could be with the Force, and she must find her own way. She trains with Leia but Leia is using her efforts to contact Ben - it's one way of bringing down the First Order from within, and the Rebels have little else. They attempt to drum up support from resistance sympathisers, but find people too intimidated. Rose, Maz and Dominic Monaghan help with this. Finn and Poe bicker, but amidst the stress of their slim odds, find a way towards solidarity. Finn, Poe and Rey follow a daring lead to Kamino, where the once-proud arch-cloners are enslaved to the First Order; they reveal their technology has been used to resurrect Palpatine and build more armies, and the Kaminoans prepare to overthrow their masters secretly, then help the heroes escape.

 

Their next lead takes them to Geonosis. They discover a new droid army that is arming a new fleet - we build towards the threat of the finale. Better to wrap up the galaxy and revisit celebrated locations with new eyes, rather than throw in endless new planets that have no character. As Kylo Ren tracks them down, yes, Rey does actually kill Chewie. This sends her towards the dark side; she can't control her power, nobody is here to train her, her Jedi master was essentially a coward. And the familiar temptation: the dark side has more powers.

 

A new lead sends them to the Old Death Star as we have as seen (resistance fighters help, but you can cut the horses). Before their duel, Kylo Ren senses that Rey has been beckoned by Palpatine too. Rey bests Kylo Ren in a duel, during which she destroys his helmet, they accidentally swap lightsabres and she kills (then heals) him when he is distracted by Leia. She flees further into the dark side. Ben Solo is shamed, no ship, no helmet, no lightsabre, and he starts to see he has no place as the most badass Sith. Then ghost-dad forgives him too. Conflicted Rey heads for Palpatine's lair, Ben Solo gives chase, anguished now more than angry.

 

The Resistance sends out its call for the end-game battle. They can't be sure Rey is able to destroy Palpatine, but they know they have to wipe out his clone facility and the sprawling new droid-operated fleet. That requires a team of commando engineers and fighters (enter Rose, Maz, Finn and others) to sneak into the command centre and set the destroyers against one another (no ragtag rebel fleet could actually wipe them out). Threepio's protocol droidery and R2's hacking skills are instrumental, BB8 can't have all the action. They also need to locate the cloning centre so that X-Wings and bombers etc. can destroy it. The battle reaches desperate lows, sacrifices are made, plans change on the hoof and they have to prevent rogue destroyers from reaching orbit.


Rey faces Palpatine, and he obviously tries to draw her to the dark side, even goading her to kill him. "Strike me down and I'll become more powerful than you can possibly imagine". She refuses and is bested by him, but Ben Solo arrives, conflicted. His Knights aren't convinced by his allegiance and they fight him, and in destroying his old students of darkness he truly becomes 'light side' (mirroring the reason he turned dark in the first place, the student betrayed by master). Ben comes to Rey's aid. He reveals that Palpatine's Sith ghost needs anchoring to a body, that the cloning facility is destroyed and that they could destroy him together. It takes a sacrifice on Ben's part to do so, and the Sith ancestor ghosts flee as there is now no longer a master OR apprentice. Rey says farewell to a dying Ben.


Stormtrooper squads press in on the heroes trapped in the destroyed clone facility, and they are nearly done for. Rose and Finn's relationship is forged in their expectation of death. But with the stormtroopers' leaders, the resurrection tech and the fleet gone, and surrounded by rebel ships, they are fighting to the death. Finn (dressed in stormtrooper guard since sneaking in) addresses them over comms and uses his history as one of their own to persuade them to put down their weapons and go free as individuals. They take off their helmets to greet each other as people, some of them are Jango clones, but must still find their way as people. The rebels take them in. The Empire is not only destroyed, but dissolved. The light side wins by virtue of peace.


The rebels celebrate, Chewie is memorialised with his long-awaited medal, and Han, Luke, Leia and Chewie, the 4 heroes of the Yavin Throne Room are finally gone. We find out what might be next for each hero: Poe has gone from smuggler, to hero-pilot, to... Republic general? Finn and Rose help the Republic, with Lando's help, to rebuild the parts of the galaxy destroyed by the wars. Rey does Jedi outreach in all the hard-up places they have visited, including Jakku, and spread the word of that mysterious myth: the Force. She finds one of those kids from The Last Jedi who has force powers. She ends up where she started (not necessarily permanently), but she is changed, and there are no more wars, only patient help towards the needy, and the possibility of an apprentice... the fate of a Jedi of the Light.

 

 

What you have here is credible.

 

With 3 massive problems - 

 

1. Since the trailers give away Palatine, there is no point in wasting time to set it up. There is some evidence that actually the Palatine reveal would happen later on but since marketing blew their wad, they changed the film.

 

2. There were serious constraints with anything to do with Leia. They made the horrible decesion to not CGI her. So basically you can't do much with the character at all.

 

3. I think this is a huge problem personally - you are making the entire trilogy Kylo's story. He's the protagonist. This kills the new trilogy. There is only 1 reason for the new trilogy to exist - that it has a female lead. Take that away and the new trilogy is offering nothing and can be binned. TLJ already had this problem - it was Kylo's movie. Disney emphatically wanted to make Ep 9 Rey's story.

 

--

 

Reasoning through the above makes you realize really how hard it was for JJ. This wasn't an easy movie to crack at all.

 

For point no. 1, I completely and completely blame Johnson. Because Ep 8 did not set up any plot direction, Ep 9 trailers had to explain the plot and premise of the movie. 

 

If your prior film ends with clear indication where it is headed, you can skimp on the plot and hide it better.

 

But Johnson set up nothing. So they had to have the Palpatine reveal in the trailer.

 

I like Ep 8. I think it's a good film. But there's no getting around the fact that it destroyed the franchise.

 

Kathy takes the blame too. They did not play the long game with this one.

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7 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

For point no. 1, I completely and completely blame Johnson. Because Ep 8 did not set up any plot direction, Ep 9 trailers had to explain the plot and premise of the movie. 

 

If your prior film ends with clear indication where it is headed, you can skimp on the plot and hide it better.

 

But Johnson set up nothing. So they had to have the Palpatine reveal in the trailer.

Maybe they, I dunno, shouldn't have fucking had Palpatine at all?

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15 minutes ago, Holko said:

Maybe they, I dunno, shouldn't have fucking had Palpatine at all?

 

No argument from me there. I feel even he added nothing to the film.

 

But just saying, once they chose him, and once marketing revealed it, their gig was up.

 

But the blame on Johnson would remain.

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Johnson did the movie he WANTED to do, like it or not, it's his vision for the franchise. 

 

I put the blame on LucasFilm, that idiotically didn't at least sat with the filmmakers and described the outline of the franchise. It's the very first thing you have to do when other people are going to work on your franchise.

 

Again, I bring the MCU example. If no one had told Gunn that Thanos would be the ultimate villain, he could have made Drax killing him to avenge the death of his family on the first Guardians movie. 

 

I mean, you want to give as much liberty to the filmmakers working on your franchise, please do this, but at least establish some outlines that they have to follow: you can't do this or that, but aside from that, do the movie you want to.

 

I know the Marvel Universe here is as beloved and admired as O.J. Simpson, but if Lucasfilm AT LEAST had some planning, they wouldn't be in this mess.

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Let's continue to bash Rian Johnson's level-headed Star Wars film that dared to take chances (successfully) and also make him synonymous with the Devil so when fans and Abrams cry about The Rise of Skywalker, they can say the Devil made them do it.

 

Or, perhaps, just maybe, it's the faulty planning of the entire trilogy that put these filmmakers in the situations that produced these films? 

 

Didn't Johnson set up the fledgling Resistance, Rey's bond with Kylo, the idea of identity and belonging, destiny and family? 

 

The problem is TRoS couldn't have possibly had the time and no director/writer on Earth could've saved it in one concluding film. This trilogy needed a better plan right from the beginning.

 

 

 

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It's definitely clear that Abrams did not have enough lead time on TROS. The film feels rushed, lazy and unambitious. The script needed another few passes (by someone who can write, so not Abrams or Terrio) to iron out the laughably convoluted plotting, and half the new elements needed to be removed OR fleshed out properly to justify their existence.

 

As it stands, the film is a perfect representation of 'shit thrown at a wall in the hope something sticks.' But maybe, with more time, Abrams might have recognised these issues before the impending deadline of production start. You can only delay those department heads begging for clarification on set designs for so long...

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Yeah, it has all the signposts of a rushed production, especially when it comes to screenwriting. I'm sure Abrams (and Terrio, for that matter) could have written a comptenent screenplay if he wasn't so pressed for time.

 

Also, when you rush preproduction, it tends to cascade through production and post-production and while it didn't have any bearing on the effects (which are quite spotless, I thought) it clearly did effect the edit, which is hopelessly choppy and breathless.

 

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Whilst I think most of the supposed leaks are fan theorist piffle, I think it's clear there were multiple cuts of JJ's film. There's moments and plotpoints which were clearly cut down right to the bone for the sheer sake of fitting everything in. Palpatine's return, the opening prologue, the Sith Dagger, Zori Bliss, Rose, Leia and Jannah are all cut so much that these things barely have any time to establish themselves, let alone have meaningful roles in the film.

 

I wish they'd established Jannah much earlier, teaming her up with Finn etc.

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