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The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

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How would you have done Episode IX differently?

 

(Some of this I posted earlier, but I have fleshed out my thoughts a bit.)

 

The fake “Trevorrow Script” makes me want to think up my own version just for fun, so here goes.

 

I have to say right off the bat I would have found some way to bring Luke back to life. They did it with Spock; hell, they did it with the Emperor; they could have done it with Luke. Hamill was clearly willing to do more, and was clearly eager for his character to have more of a chance to shine.

 

I would also have fought for IX to be not the last Episode, but for the series to officially become open-ended, and Kylo Ren not die till Episode X. I feel like just too much was crammed into this movie, plus the weight of being a trilogy-ender and a saga-ender was just too much. Just think of how many characters were crammed in.

 

I feel Kylo Ren had to be redeemed (as in TRoS). I went into this in my earlier post; yes I know not all agree. But it is hard to just accept him back on the good side after all he has done. He should have repented and sacrificed himself all at once, same as it was handled with Vader.

 

I like the old fan theory that Kylo Ren could have been on a “deep undercover” assignment from Luke to infiltrate the dark side. Obviously along the way he fell, but at least his original intentions would have been understandable and honorable.

 

Rey as the Emperor’s granddaughter is weak (and weird), obviously just a device to shoehorn the Emperor into the movie. I still like the idea of her as having been cloned from Luke’s severed hand, but if I’m honest, they really should have gone the obvious route and make her and Kylo Ren siblings. They needed an intense and compelling connection at the center of this story, and the “Force Dyad” mumbo-jumbo just doesn’t have the same oomph.

 

Bringing back the Emperor was okay, but, I think bringing back Snoke and explaining that it’s Darth Plagueis regenerating in clone bodies would have been superior. It’s more or less the same thing, but at least it would have made the universe seem a little larger.

 

Carrie Fisher, sorry, they should more or less have done what Star Trek: Beyond did — have a couple of folks take a moment to watch a brief holo-recording (perhaps from the Ewok Celebration).

 

I have lots of other gripes, like they could have cultivated a better sense of time and space (especially when it comes to journeys into the Unknown Regions), they could have been a little more dainty with Force powers and hyperspace physics, that sort of stuff. As I said, I thought too much was crammed in, like if they weren’t going to do anything cool with the Knights of Ren they should have just left them out till some future movie. Finn needed to become the “Samwise” of the series rather than being so sidelined.

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Like I said, I wanted for the final film of the series to be sufficiently apocalyptic, leaving a much drearier Star Wars in its wake. Ending the Jedi order (a striking concept The Last Jedi introduces and then cowardly doubles back on) is a good starting point, but killing off peoples' ability to use The Force - for bad or for good - is even better.

 

The McGuffin should have been an old Force relic that can give the person who wields it enormous Force powers (hence being coveted by Kylo) but, if destroyed, severes everybody's connection to The Force. Kylo takes possesion of the artefact, and in the ensuing struggle Rey ends up destroying it, leaving Kylo a powerless mess. 

 

Good triumphs, but at a steep cost. The perfect bittersweet ending, and one that doesn't leave much room for a dreaded Episode X in its wake.

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I can't overstate how much better the Trevorrow script is than what we got in Rise of Skywalker.

 

Someone here claimed it was 'stupid' and that's why it wasn't chosen, yet Rise of Skywalker is the absolute height of stupidity. The Trevorrow script, dubbed 'Episode 9: Duel of the Fates' is like the antithesis to what we got, if it was able to be produced with little creative compromise I believe it would've made this whole sequel trilogy worth it.

 

Just off the top of my head here's a quick comparison between the two scripts:
- The Emperor does not come back, he's just a hologram

- Hux isn't a joke of a man that gets killed instantly for his mind-numbingly stupid face-heel turn, he actually takes his place as Chancellor and helps lead the First Order whilst still having tension with Kylo Ren
- Kylo Ren doesn't get the cliche redemption end and there's no romantic relationship between him and Rey. This is a man that has doubled down on the dark side and unlike Vader it has left him devoid of the one thing that could save him - love.

- Actually draws from the good parts of the EU instead of some of the worst aspects (Dark Empire return of Palpatine, yet somehow doing it worse). We get to see the Kuat Shipyards, an Eclipse Star Destroyer, and the state of Coruscant under First Order occupation which with the way its described evokes the EU for me, a bit hard to explain why. Furthermore, even TCW gets some love by having it feature the planet of Mortis, a force well that naturally Kylo Ren would want to find and soak in the power of the force there.
- The script is driven by characters and their interactions and relationships with each other, not stitched together action scenes. There's no macguffin, let alone four, and it's all about Rey finally confronting Kylo Ren at the height of his power
- Rey doubts herself in realistic ways and actually demonstrates character and personality, she wants to live up to what it means to be a Jedi but she struggles with that and worries that its making her dangerous. It's probably the closest she's felt to being similar to Luke's character this entire trilogy.
- The legacy cast are not glorified cameos. I can't state how much better handled the OT cast is. While yes you do have the limitations of Carrie Fisher no longer being alive, Luke actually has a purpose in the story by visiting both Kylo Ren and Rey as a mentor. The interplay between Luke and Kylo would've been fantastic, as he attempts to convince him to turn away from this path but is shut out by Kylo, and mentoring Rey directly as he should've done in TLJ. Furthermore, Lando actually gets a realistic character arc, given the First Order rose from the Empire and took over everything he's feeling dispossessed and wondering if all of this was worth it. I understand completely where he's coming from, and that would've make his appearance near the end with his army of smugglers all the more satisfying ala Han Solo. Plus, R2, C3P0, and Chewie all get their hero moments and aren't just around as wandering comic relief.
They acknowledge Finn is a stormtrooper fucking finally. Finn actually leads a stormtrooper uprising near the end of the movie and has interplay with a specific First Order trooper that he knew when he was apart of it. They had such an excellent concept established with TFA then proceeded to do nothing with it in the subsequent movies, and this would've been so satisfying and made Finn a character that should've been there.
- The sexual sterility of the ST would've been amended with Poe constantly trying to flirt with Rey, its one-sided and she even uses that to her advantage to manipulate him to get to safety but it would've added some much needed humanity to these movies that the OT had.
- We get to see both Rey and Kylo Ren train, particularly the latter would've been incredible to see under the guise of the enigmatic, impossibly ancient and cruelly wise Tor Vallum, described as being almost eldritch in appearance. He would've taught Kylo Ren how to drain the life force from others, which, a new force ability actually being taught instead of pulled out of thin air would've been a first for the ST. However, the best part of this would've been him fighting vision Vader and losing horribly, I can't imagine how amazing this scene would be from a visual and a character standpoint, there's a lot of subtext there and even something on a meta-level. Vader has always been something Kylo Ren has tried to rise beyond in power, and now he faces that directly.

- Although I think TLJ is a terrible, terrible movie, I have a lot of respect for this script for achieving what it does without shitting all over what came before and giving the audience whiplash. It's actually completely congruent with TLJ, Rey is still nobody, Kylo Ren is the Supreme Leader, Luke follows through with his promise to 'always be with' Kylo Ren', and the First Order has subjugated the galaxy - and this movie shows how with their shipyards and iron rule on Coruscant as well as other planets.

That's just some of the good parts of this script, I highly recommend you check out the two podcasts Rob Burnett did on THEBURNETT NETWORK youtube channel to hear more details about this tantalising script.

 

For all those doubting the legitimacy I honestly have to ask - how? The source is reputable, backed up by other reputable sources as well, and its too intricate and congruent with the state of both this hypothetical movie's production and the Rise of Skywalker's production (there's a lot of similar elements), I think it's only a matter of time before the entire script is out in the public and I for one can't wait to read it.
 

 

PT2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m62H56LMB-U

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

Luke actually has a purpose in the story by visiting both Kylo Ren and Rey as a mentor. The interplay between Luke and Kylo would've been fantastic, as he attempts to convince him to turn away from this path but is shut out by Kylo, and mentoring Rey directly as he should've done in TLJ.

 

I cannot overstate just how poorly handled Luke's character arc is in TROS. What a horrific waste of that character to just turn up for one scene, spend half of it justifying his actions in the previous film (which that film already explained to anyone actually paying attention) and the other half being little more than a convenient plot device to help Rey (Here, a new lightsaber! Here, an X-Wing!) 

 

It's actually embarrassing just how much of a misfire so many things in TROS are, but this one almost takes the cake (other than needlessly reintroducing an old villain when Rian brilliantly set the stage for Kylo to take that place, and also for Luke to play a more important role in his development, another element needlessly discarded). 

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A great script is one thing, directing it and turning it into a great film is another and Trevorrow's track record didn't inspire much confidence before he was announced, and it still doesn't now. Jurassic World was a wreck, The Book of Henry was a misfire...

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2 hours ago, DarthDementous said:

They acknowledge Finn is a stormtrooper fucking finally. Finn actually leads a stormtrooper uprising near the end of the movie and has interplay with a specific First Order trooper that he knew when he was apart of it. They had such an excellent concept established with TFA then proceeded to do nothing with it in the subsequent movies, and this would've been so satisfying and made Finn a character that should've been there.

 

This bugs me as well! It was so obvious where they could've taken Finn's arc and given that character an entire purpose throughout the trilogy. TFA established the First Order's child trafficking recruitment then proceeded to do nothing with it, when it would have been a great showcase for Finn to liberate some child camps or something. You know, give his character some purpose instead of just tagging along pointlessly like everyone else. 

 

It's even more obvious after TLJ, where Rian focused heavily on giving each of the main characters their own storyline full of setup and payoff (love it or hate it). All 3 learn valuable lessons during that film. What the fuck do Finn or Poe learn in TROS? Abrams was so obsessed with reuniting them that he washed his hands of doing anything with them, except lazily pairing them with pointless new side characters who contribute nothing to the narrative except plot contrivances (A magic token to land inside Star Destroyers! Horses!) 

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You can see threads of where they wanted to take Finn's Stormtrooper past in the shoe-horned Kef Bir sequences with Jannah. If they had more time I would've liked to have seen more of her character and expand upon both of their Stormtrooper past whilst liberating other Troopers. 

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21 minutes ago, Arpy said:

A great script is one thing, directing it and turning it into a great film is another and Trevorrow's track record didn't inspire much confidence before he was announced, and it still doesn't now. Jurassic World was a wreck, The Book of Henry was a misfire...

 

Oh come on. Jurassic World was fun.

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41 minutes ago, Þekþiþm said:

 

Oh come on. Jurassic World was fun.

No, it was painfully obvious they had no new ideas and were solely cashing in on nostalgia for Jurassic Park. Probably the most disappointing film I've seen in a long time.

 

Jurassic World's success is entirely financial. 

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38 minutes ago, Arpy said:

No, it was painfully obvious they had no new ideas and were solely cashing in on nostalgia for Jurassic Park. Probably the most disappointing film I've seen in a long time.

 

Jurassic World's success is entirely financial. 

 

Ehh I liked the dinosaur fights and the score.

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Same, I don't completely despise it, but I don't think I can ever love it either. I like Chris Pratt's character!

 

I have a soft spot for Fallen Kingdom because at least they tried to do something different, with the mansion and all, but the story and writing are still blech.

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Jurassic World was dumb fun. And it had one of the best Gia pieces:

 

 

But Fallen Kingdom is atrocious. Not even Bayona being a better director than Trevorrow could've saved this movie from the utterly horrendous script. How this crap made over 1.3 billions at the box office still amazes me.

 

As for Trevorrow's script for Duel of the Fates (lol), yeah, it's no masterpiece, but I'm sure some tweaks could've turned into a good movie, one that honoured its trilogy and gave it a satisfactory ending. In other words, it had potential. Abrams' final script for TROS not only was poorly written but also flawed from the beginning, not even Tarantino, the Coen Brothers and a newly ressurected Herman J. Mankiewicz working together could've made that work.

 

But of course, when you listen to fanboys whining on social media to get inspiration for your script, the result can only lead to crap.

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Oh, that title would've certainly change. No way they would allow the movie to be named after a track on an album... right?

 

Maybe Trevorrow is just jealous that even Williams being a musician and not a screenwriter he still managed to come up with such an awesome title like Duel of the Fates.

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Wellp, I hope they publish the actual script. Obviously some people like the story, and if it makes them happy, great! Headcanon is a beautiful thing.

 

I’d also like to see a much longer cut of JJ’s film.

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32 minutes ago, TheUlyssesian said:

I think it is a good title. I think it certainly would be a boon for marketing. 

 

Rise of Skywalker is a garbage title. It does not mean anything at all, even in the context of the movie.

 

Didn't Rey become the first "Skywalker"? As in the replacement title of the "Jedi"?

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6 hours ago, Edmilson said:

Oh, that title would've certainly change. No way they would allow the movie to be named after a track on an album... right?

 

 

I'm sure it was just a placeholder name.

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It's the rise of both Ben and Rey.

7 hours ago, Edmilson said:

 

 

But Fallen Kingdom is atrocious. Not even Bayona being a better director than Trevorrow could've saved this movie from the utterly horrendous script. How this crap made over 1.3 billions at the box office still amazes me.

The same way the first film made a shit ton of money - people high on nostalgia for the original film.

 

The whole cloning, species endangerment/extinction bullshit was incredibly stupid. 

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10 hours ago, Þekþiþm said:

 

Didn't Rey become the first "Skywalker"? As in the replacement title of the "Jedi"?

 

It is just odd grammatically. Rey does not "rise" in any way in the film. And since there are so many skywalkers past and present in the sage that having an unqualified "Skywalker" makes no sense to me.

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I saw this again. The quote that kept coming into my head was Hitchcock’s thing about surprise vs suspense. Where surprise is a bomb you don’t see under the table goes off, while suspense is a bomb you do see under the table doesn’t go off.

 

The first two acts of this movie especially are like a bunch of random bombs going off. Snoke, Palps, Lando, Rey heals things, Chewie etc. Once Kylo turns, it’s not like it really makes any more sense but at least it’s less erratic.

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1 hour ago, mrbellamy said:

The quote that kept coming into my head was Hitchcock’s thing about surprise vs suspense. Where surprise is a bomb you don’t see under the table goes off, while suspense is a bomb you do see under the table doesn’t go off.

 

In essence, suspense is whenever the audience is privvy to information that the characters are not.

 

This sequel trilogy (especially the later two entries) has been much too preoccupied with surprising its audience, rather than favouring suspense and drama.

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Yeah, I think one very interesting factor in how people received TLJ was in whether they had a deep reverence for Luke Skywalker or always just kind of thought he was lame (i.e., prior to the Sequel Trilogy coming out).

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It was certainly something which affected some of the audience's perception of The Last Jedi. Some were expecting some lightsaber wielding Jedi Master, using the Force in some epic showdown with Snoke. I never thought of Luke as a particularly powerful Jedi, or that he was some legendary figure from the OT and I like how TLJ treats him as a human, rather than a fictitious superhero that I could tell some people wanted.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Arpy said:

Some were expecting some lightsaber wielding Jedi Master, using the Force in some epic showdown with Snoke.


But showing a tired, regretful and disillusioned old Luke wasn’t some bold decision of Rian Johnson: rather, it was one that was all but guaranteed in The Force Awakens. Not sure why people would expect otherwise, or - on the other hand - why some people found it to be such bold a choice. It was what we signed up for.

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I think more than being a badass, what people really wanted out of Luke on that island was to just discover that he was doing something active. They wanted him to be looking for something related to the history of the Jedi or the secrets of the Force, whatever, could be anything but just to invent some bigger thing that would keep him away. Even if he was just like a crazy delusional Force zealot meditating all the time and it turned out he was chasing nothing and had to be turned back to the fight that way, I think people may have been happier with that. The biggest problem people had was that he was just knowingly, intentionally wasting away for years while the First Order grew.

 

I still liked what Johnson did and Hamill’s performance was unexpectedly wonderful but I get that. It’s the only real criticism that I can basically understand, whereas other things like Luke’s temptation to kill Ben to me are really overblown. I don’t understand why people think Luke is above being so shocked by prophetic evil that it would fill him with an overwhelming temptation that he STILL refuses to act on and immediately makes him ashamed within seconds. Like...how is that not exactly what he would do in that situation? Just because he presses the lightsaber button? Get outta here.

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I don't know why people got so horrified with the portrayal of Luke on TLJ, it wasn't something bold or never done before. I just thought Johnson was following that trope of the old grizzled warrior that, after a life of war, suffering and trauma, isolated himself on a small, peaceful, spiritual place, on which he could meditate and work on his traumas. Until someone (usually a girl/woman) calls him back into action, and he has to put his skills allied to his wisdom into work.

 

I mean, there's Rambo on Rambo III, IV and, as far as I know, V as well; Wolverine on every single one of his solo movies (but mostly Origins and Logan); Bond on Skyfall (after the opening action sequence); Bourne on the 2016 movie... That's the ones I remember from head, but I'm sure there are some Schwarznegger/Chuck Norris movies that also do just that. Oh, and on arthouse cinema, there's Jim Caviezel on The Thin Red Line.

 

You can even argue that TLJ is a loose remake of Logan (Wolverine = Luke, Rey = X23, Mutant children = Resistance, Yoda = Charles Xavier, Reavers = First Order, Zander Rice = Snoke, etc). Not because Johnson got inspired by the Wolverine movie, but because they both drew from the same sources.

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Yeah, this movie will make money for Disney, but... Come on, to earn less than fucking Jumanji on the daily box office, despite Jumanji being on theaters for a week longer than TROS, it's totally humiliating and absolutely demoralizing for the franchise. 

 

Also, TROS, the ~epic finale for the Skywalker Saga~, has earned less in 29 days ($485m) than Rogue fucking One after the same amount of time ($488m on day 29, final box office of $532m), a spin off set 35 years before the current trilogy and not starring any of the known, beloved characters from previous movies. That pretty much guarantees that TROS will finish its career behind Rogue One, as well as Episodes VII and VIII, on american box office and probably worldwide as well. 

 

Sure, this ain't no mega flop like John Carter or Tomorrowland. But you can bet that Disney is not happy with this movie's performance.

 

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/date/2020-01-17/?ref_=bo_hm_rd

 

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 At that link, Star Wars outearned Jumanji every other day since its release.  I doubt Disney is worried about some weird one-day Jumanji surge. I’m sure they’re happy that their movie which tanked with critics will even come close to their earlier, better offerings.

 

if anything, they probably were more concerned about whatever this movie nobody ever heard of was doing topping them last week

 

33D58C8E-E8DC-47FB-8D66-8BE1A6CC6AB1.jpeg

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Yeah, but again: Jumanji is on its 36th day. Star Wars is on its 29th. Both are blockbusters that went into wide release since day 1, not an independent/Oscar movie that plataformed for a few days before expanding.

 

This is not a competition of SW vs Jumanji, is more of a sign that the movie is not connecting with the audiences as intended. If a silly kid flick that has been on theaters for over a month is at this moment selling more tickets on a daily basis than their costly blockbuster, it shows that Jumanji had better word to mouth than TROS. In other words, if audiences are displeased, it can lead to more troubles for the franchise going into the future.

 

24 minutes ago, mstrox said:

I’m sure they’re happy that their movie which tanked with critics will even come close to their earlier, better offerings.

 

Uhm... no, they are not. Considering $520m as a possible final BO for TROS, it'll mean that the movie will have a BO 44.5% smaller than Ep VII, 16.1% smaller than VIII and heck, 2% smaller than Rogue One. When Disney put $250m - $300m on LFL's hands to produce the movie, do you actually think they were expecting it to earn $100m less than TLJ and less than even Rogue One? The movie had to, at the very least, earn more than TLJ, not fall over 16% in comparison.

 

Again, the movie is no flop. It's an underperformance, which is different - and, in many ways, much more damaging to a franchise. BvS still made over $100m in profit for WB, but its performance is not well beloved by no executive.

 

To clarify, a flop is when a movie earns less than what its combined costs for production and marketing, making its studios to loose huge amounts of money. Eg: John Carter, Tomorrowland, A Wrinkle in Time, Ghostbusters 2016, Solo.

 

An underperformance is when a movie, despite being profitable, still disappoint in comparison to the expectations. BvS is the greatest example, the movie was supposed to launch a MCU-like franchise for WB/DC, but instead got terrible reviews, terrible word of mouth, had terrible performance after its opening weekend, failed to hit the billion dollar mark, and put its franchise on a dire situation that only got worse with Justice League. Its failure was so tremendous that made DCEU loose its Batman AND Superman.

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Yeah, when something like Bad Boys For Life or Like A Boss is stronger than a Star Wars sequel it just tells me audiences are indiscriminate towards total shit and will watch anything.

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On 1/18/2020 at 8:26 AM, Chen G. said:

 

In essence, suspense is whenever the audience is privvy to information that the characters are not.

 

This sequel trilogy (especially the later two entries) has been much too preoccupied with surprising its audience, rather than favouring suspense and drama.

 

Surprises are bait for online spoilerphobic culture. The filmmakers think that one shock moment from ESB should be the defining repeating motif throughout this whole franchise.

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