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The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS ALLOWED discussion thread

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6 hours ago, Gruesome Son of a Bitch said:

Prequels: Anakin trains to become a Jedi, turns to the dark side, Republic becomes the Empire following clone wars, Jedi are destroyed or forced in to hiding. Evil gains the upper hand.

 

Originals: New hero emerges and trains to be a Jedi, rebels fight and eventually defeat the Empire, hero learns the villain is his father, redeems him in final showdown. Evil is vanquished.

 

Sequels: ????

Sequels: John Williams jams with his band. 

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15 hours ago, BrendanT1993 said:

14 Healing Wounds (2:49) - Rey heals Kylo after stabbing him; Force theme at 0:40; holy shit Han's and Leia's theme at 1:44

 

I only hear Leia's theme here

 

Why would Rey go back to Tatooine to live at the end? Nothing good ever happened there. There's no reason for it to happen except "it's like poetry it rhymes"

 

Anakin was a slave there

Anakin's mom was tortured and killed there

Luke's aunt & uncle were burned & murdered there 

Han was frozen and sold to a big slug crime boss there

Boba Fett got sarlacc'd there

 

And Rey was already a poor scavenger and orphan on a similar desert planet. Why go back to that life

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3 hours ago, Disco Stu said:

 

Say what now?  The single greatest strength of this new trilogy, from a story perspective, is how these new characters just leap off the screen they're so charismatic and compelling.  I've enjoyed your posts on stuff like the music of Mandalorian and TROS, but clearly we're coming from different perspectives when it comes to these movies.  What else is new in the world of Star Wars!  Civil war without end!


If they're so compelling, why are the toys not selling? There were TLJ toys on clearance racks for months.
 

Rey had the potential to be a great character; her introduction in Act I of TFA was flawless. But since then, they've basically made her a Mary Sue. It gets boring seeing her win at seemingly everything, and know how to do things better than everybody.
 

The first red flag should have been when she seemingly knew more about how to fly the Falcon than Han and Chewie knew—and it had been their ship for decades. Then she pulled off a Jedi mind trick with no training whatsoever. Then she beat Kylo Ren—a guy trained in lightsaber combat by the son of the Chosen One aka the official leader of the Jedi Order post-ROTJ—in lightsaber battle... in the first film. Then she beat Luke himself in combat, in the second film. Then she lifted like 50 boulders without breaking a sweat or looking the least bit strained.
 

The fact that she was so overly powered that one of the novelization authors felt the only way they could reasonably explain it was by claiming she "downloaded" Kylo's Force powers when he interrogated her, is very telling. And now apparently she's set to take Anakin's big victory out from under him, and seemingly unseat him as the Chosen One. Where is the respect for the lore, for the past characters, for the SW universe? And you can claim they're so compelling, but don't shoot the messenger: what I said about how they originally had Luke in TFA a lot more, but he was the most interesting character, is something they actually said themselves.

 

Either way, glad you like my music-related posts; thanks a lot.

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What do you mean? I noticed that stuff from watching the films. (I saw each multiple times in theaters and own them.) Aside from obviously the bit from the novelization. Either way, I fail to see how your comment really rebuts any of what I said... They are valid points.

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It doesn't, but TFA is beloved around here. You might be chased off with sticks if you continue to defend criticisms of this film for too long. Or you will be thrown into Mattris' pit, affably named "Star Wars Disenchantment Thread".

 

There are only two kosher types of DT viewers; those who like the films, and those who do not disturb them.

 

Feel free to complain about the prequels though. This is PC.

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2 hours ago, Tydirium said:

Rey had the potential to be a great character; her introduction in Act I of TFA was flawless. But since then, they've basically made her a Mary Sue. It gets boring seeing her win at seemingly everything, and know how to do things better than everybody.
 

The first red flag should have been when she seemingly knew more about how to fly the Falcon than Han and Chewie knew—and it had been their ship for decades. Then she pulled off a Jedi mind trick with no training whatsoever. Then she beat Kylo Ren—a guy trained in lightsaber combat by the son of the Chosen One aka the official leader of the Jedi Order post-ROTJ—in lightsaber battle... in the first film. Then she beat Luke himself in combat, in the second film. Then she lifted like 50 boulders without breaking a sweat or looking the least bit strained.
 

The fact that she was so overly powered that one of the novelization authors felt the only way they could reasonably explain it was by claiming she "downloaded" Kylo's Force powers when he interrogated her, is very telling. And now apparently she's set to take Anakin's big victory out from under him, and seemingly unseat him as the Chosen One. Where is the respect for the lore, for the past characters, for the SW universe? And you can claim they're so compelling, but don't shoot the messenger: what I said about how they originally had Luke in TFA a lot more, but he was the most interesting character, is something they actually said themselves.

 

Rey 'knew more' about the Falcon than Han and Chewie did becuse she knew the modifications Unkar Plutt had made and they did not. She nearly crashed the damn thing on her first flight, so I'd hardly qualify that as 'knowing more than Han and Chewie'. She only really knew about what Unkar Plutt had done to the Falcon.

 

The mind trick thing... could have been telegraphed better, I agree. If they'd even given a handwave comment about how Kylo had seen her having used the Force before, it would have explained it better. But it also wouldn't be the first time that somebody uses the Force with no training and gets away with it either. Anakin might have been the 'Chosen One', but at age 8 he was able to read the minds of the Jedi Council (or at least, that's implied what's going on in that weird little test in TPM). Luke, with very minimal training, could focus the Force enough to not need a targeting computer.

 

She beat Kylo Ren after Kylo had taken a shot to the gut from a weapon that had blown Stormtroopers away, right after killing his father - an act even Snoke mentioned split his soul 'to the bone'. She knew how to wield melee weapons. There was something of an unfamiliarity with the lightsaber though, and had she been facing an uninjured and balanced Kylo, she would have lost.

 

She only 'beat' Luke in combat by summoning the lightsaber. Up to that point she was incapable of breaking through Luke's defence. That's called cheating, so I don't think it counts.

 

The lifting rocks - again, I'll give that to you too. Three lessons of training would not have been enough to attempt that skill with minimal to no effort. It would have been better had she had Chewie blast it with the bowcaster or the Falcon's guns or something. Or, heck: have it so that she received assistance on that from Luke as a last act.

 

All in all, I'd say Rey was just a typical Star Wars Jedi character with not that much development.

 

As one last addendum, Anakin has always been 'unseated' as the Chosen One - even in Legends. He didn't succeed in killing the Emperor and ending the threat of the Sith forever there either. The Sith went on for over 100 years after his time.

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4 minutes ago, Gistech said:

She beat Kylo Ren after Kylo had taken a shot to the gut from a weapon that had blown Stormtroopers away, right after killing his father - an act even Snoke mentioned split his soul 'to the bone'. She knew how to wield melee weapons. There was something of an unfamiliarity with the lightsaber though, and had she been facing an uninjured and balanced Kylo, she would have lost.

Also Kylo never had any intention of killing or even really hurting her.

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How did Rey know how Jedi mind tricks worked? I.e. how did she know to state a phrase in a way that the other person first repeat, and then think themselves. She's never been around anyone who would know about that.

 

My 2014 Chevy Colorado is all busted up from these p(l)ot holes we're driving through.

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She saw into Kylo.

 

She's also a substitute for the audience who grew up on Star Wars - if she knows of Luke and Han, she could have heard "fairy tales" of the Force and powers.

 

Also she just tries it like "well what else is there to do, why not?".

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5 hours ago, Tydirium said:


If they're so compelling, why are the toys not selling? There were TLJ toys on clearance racks for months.
 

It's fine if you don't like the sequel trilogy, not saying you should, but the relative under performance of the Star Wars brand has very little to do with adult fan reception of the series. Toys R Us recently filed for bankruptcy. Hasbro has been taking losses for years. Even LEGO has been reporting lower numbers for at least two years. This is a mere symptom of a much larger trend that fans are using as evidence to further their personal agenda.

 

Unfortunately, Hasbro seems to be hellbent on continuing in a dismal direction, but LEGO has still has hope. They're a bit over saturated, sure, but there's hope. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Fargo said:

How did Rey know how Jedi mind tricks worked? I.e. how did she know to state a phrase in a way that the other person first repeat, and then think themselves. She's never been around anyone who would know about that.

 

My 2014 Chevy Colorado is all busted up from these p(l)ot holes we're driving through.


I also wondered that for a long time, but then I remembered Kylo tried to mind trick her in the previous scene. "You will bring me to Luke Skywalker" or something like that. I wish it was set up a bit better, but it makes sense.

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28 minutes ago, montgocloud said:

It's fine if you don't like the sequel trilogy, not saying you should, but the relative under performance of the Star Wars brand has very little to do with adult fan reception of the series. Toys R Us recently filed for bankruptcy. Hasbro has been taking losses for years. Even LEGO has been reporting lower numbers for at least two years. This is a mere symptom of a much larger trend that fans are using as evidence to further their personal agenda.

 

Unfortunately, Hasbro seems to be hellbent on continuing in a dismal direction, but LEGO has still has hope. They're a bit over saturated, sure, but there's hope. 

 

 


I also wondered that for a long time, but then I remembered Kylo tried to mind trick her in the previous scene. "You will bring me to Luke Skywalker" or something like that. I wish it was set up a bit better, but it makes sense.

 

Point 1: I have a big Smyths in my town (the UK's equivalent/ascending replacement for Toys'R'Us), and the shelves are almost always full for more or less every brand they have there.

 

Point 2: the scene you're thinking of takes place in TLJ. TBH, it was a bit laughable that he would attempt to try a mind trick on Rey given she had always 'awakened' by that point.

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I like TLJ as a stand-alone. It’s not perfect and the bad bits are pretty bad (Holdo and Canto Bite) but it falls down as the second act of a trilogy. It basically goes in its own direction and then leaves scorched earth behind it making it difficult or even impossible to build anything off it and wrap up a nine episode saga. It all goes back to not even having a basic outline of where the story was going or what the ST was supposed to achieve. Aside from making money. 

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Canto Bight was fun. All the costumes and scenery, wacky music with a tongue-in-cheek Steineresque moment, and even that little drunk alien who had an arc and it was a cartoony joy to see him get all the cash at the end, while BB-8 was loaded with coins to shoot. Both are literal pay-offs, which amuses me.

 

Either give me RP Moff Tarkin in a serious drama with full fanfares, or give me fun. Originals are firmly the former, Prequels have something of both, TFA is neither.

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8 hours ago, A Ghost From Highwood said:

I’m just grateful that these movies are scored by John Williams. Because none of these give people consistent stories. Now they can’t even sell crap. 

 

I think Lucasfilm has delivered consistent stories with a clear through-line. I'm confident that all will make sense in the end.

I'm confident they will begin to "sell crap" at at blistering rate, starting in a week.

 

6 hours ago, Bilbo said:

I like TLJ as a stand-alone. It’s not perfect and the bad bits are pretty bad (Holdo and Canto Bite) but it falls down as the second act of a trilogy. It basically goes in its own direction and then leaves scorched earth behind it making it difficult or even impossible to build anything off it and wrap up a nine episode saga. It all goes back to not even having a basic outline of where the story was going or what the ST was supposed to achieve. Aside from making money. 

 

Do you have any evidence to support the theory that Lucasfilm didn't have "a basic outline of where the story was going or what the ST was supposed to achieve"? Do you think they presented the first two episodes of the Sequel Trilogy in this manner primarily to 'make money'?

 

26 minutes ago, First TROS March Accolyte said:

Either give me RP Moff Tarkin in a serious drama with full fanfares, or give me fun. Originals are firmly the former, Prequels have something of both, TFA is neither.

 

Do you think TFA isn't original or fun? Heading into Episode IX, do you think Rey is on a Hero's Journey?

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13 minutes ago, Mattris said:

Do you think TFA isn't original or fun? Heading into Episode IX, do you think Rey is on a Hero's Journey?

It was an incompetent copy pasta by people who didn't even understand the film they were copying. Seeing this done by a ridiculously rich corporation after they conned me to pay them for a ticket, was insulting. "Humour" was cringy and out of place, and there weren't even details or world-building to get intrigued by, like there were in TLJ.

 

Rey is on a Mary Sue journey. The more she smashes, the worse it looks. The only real 'hero' in these films is Poe.

In TLJ "subverting expectations" terms, the only thing that would be really fun for me, would be for Palpatine to destroy these characters, and end the film laughing---cue end credits. The second thing would be a continuation of Reylo. None of the two are happening, so... I'm going there just for Williams.

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I'm afraid you have grossly underestimated JJ and Lucasfilm. I'll just say this for now: Rey is not a Mary Sue... or a hero. She will never be a Jedi, nor did she ever want to be one.

 

I'll be posting my final Episode IX theory soon. Good thing spoilers are allowed in this thread!

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I make predictions (theories) with the films and canon as source material. To substantiate them, I sometimes quote cast and crew interviews.

 

In a recent interview, JJ Abrams said of TFA: "It felt, to me, like a way of saying, ‘Let’s go back to a Star Wars that we know, so we can tell another story.'”

So by definition, the Sequel Trilogy is not a Hero's Journey.

 

Regarding Rey's strong affinity to use the Force, JJ said while smiling, "Yeah, spooky, right? It’s a fair point. It’s not an accident."

 

As Leia's Resistance representative, Rey went to Luke in an attempt to get him to come back with her ("We need your help".) Luke did not teach her anything about the ways of the Jedi. In fact, he wanted the Jedi "to end." Rey cannot be a Jedi if she doesn't receive instruction. Reading the (stolen) Jedi texts doesn't count unless she practices those teachings and values on-screen.

 

Anyone who thinks the trilogy to end the Star Wars Saga will feature a 'nobody from nowhere' who saves the day and takes the Skywalker name - or anything of the sort - will be proven wildly misguided. Trust me, JJ and Lucasfilm know better. Like the Emperor, JJ has something special planned. 

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16 minutes ago, Mattris said:

I make predictions (theories) with the films and canon as source material. To substantiate them, I sometimes quote cast and crew interviews.

 

In a recent interview, JJ Abrams said of TFA: "It felt, to me, like a way of saying, ‘Let’s go back to a Star Wars that we know, so we can tell another story.'”

So by definition, the Sequel Trilogy is not a Hero's Journey.

 

Regarding Rey's strong affinity to use the Force, JJ said while smiling, "Yeah, spooky, right? It’s a fair point. It’s not an accident."

 

As Leia's Resistance representative, Rey went to Luke in an attempt to get him to come back with her ("We need your help".) Luke did not teach her anything about the ways of the Jedi. In fact, he wanted the Jedi "to end." Rey cannot be a Jedi if she doesn't receive instruction. Reading the (stolen) Jedi texts doesn't count unless she practices those teachings and values on-screen.

 

Anyone who thinks the trilogy to end the Star Wars Saga will feature a 'nobody from nowhere' who saves the day and takes the Skywalker name - or anything of the sort - will be proven wildly misguided. Trust me, JJ and Lucasfilm know better. Like the Emperor, JJ has something special planned. 

I'm intrigued by your take on this... but I'm also flummoxed by your about-face. We all remember when you were adamant that Disney royally screwed up with TLJ, that they'd have to beg forgiveness of the fans and basically disown the whole movie. But now TLJ appears to be perfectly fine; you even mention above that LFL "delivered consistent stories with a clear through-line." What gives??

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Indeed, that was the case with me. Not anymore.

 

Suspecting that 'my eyes had deceived me and that I should not trust them', I took a step back from my disappointment and consulted the official source material - the films and (new) canon material, as well as the Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith novelizations - and learned more about the lore. I also discovered a multitude of clues, including metaphors and cryptic language, that foreshadow character arcs and events to come in The Rise of Skywalker. Eventually, I gained an entirely new perspective on Star Wars and realized the through-line theme and narrative of the Saga.

 

With the specific manner in which Episodes VII and VIII were presented, it was Lucasfilm's intention to trick the masses. At times, Disney/Lucasfilm employees insinuated that they were 'making it up as they go.' I'm positive that these kinds of statements were intended to deceive and distract. It worked too well... and many prideful/pessimistic/ignorant people have lost hope to 'salvage' the Saga when it was made precisely as intended.

 

I can assure you all, JJ and Lucasfilm had a worthy, trIXie plan for the Sequel Trilogy from the beginning. The proof is in the canon material. Even with eight of the nine episodes of the Saga available (as well as a swath of canon material volumes to comb through for clues), the fandom - and world at large - seems to have no idea what's in store for the finale.

 

But I do.

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There's no need to theorize about what happens in this film, the entire plot has already leaked out. It's posted on the previous page if you haven't seen it. 

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16 hours ago, Gistech said:

Point 2: the scene you're thinking of takes place in TLJ. TBH, it was a bit laughable that he would attempt to try a mind trick on Rey given she had always 'awakened' by that point.

 

You're right, I was thinking of the interrogation scene in TFA but quoting a scene from TLJ. My knowledge of Star Wars is folding in on itself and I don't know what is what anymore! 

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1 minute ago, Fargo said:

Is that supposed to be Snoke's voice saying "My boy"? Sounds too deep for Sheev.

 

It seems they've done some voice modulation for Palpatine's voice. Definitely Ian McDiarmid.

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1 hour ago, Fargo said:

Is that supposed to be Snoke's voice saying "My boy"?

 

No, his is "You have ever heard!"

 

Damn though, does Ian McDiarmid has a way of taking the stupidest lines imaginable and willing them off of the page. I can't see the inclusion of the character working to the film's benefit, but a part of me is excited to see what the actor will pull off with a director he can actually work with.

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