Fabulin 3,505 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 I thought about it in a following fashion: late 1950s to late 1960s - early period (still finding his voice) early 1970s - transitional early/middle period (Williams was on to something, especially in the disaster scores, and experimented a lot) late 1970s till the end of 1980s - middle period (the flowering, main blockbuster block) early 1990s till the mid 2000s - third period (reform around the time of Jurassic Park and Schindler's List) mid 2000s - ? - fourth period (marked by a relatively more introverted tendencies) What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Edmilson 7,265 Posted November 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2019 That's a pretty interesting discussion! I personally classify Williams' career like this: The late 1950s to the mid-1960s: The jazzy era, as he was still Johnny Williams. The mid-1960s to the early 1970s: Beginning of film scoring career and early successes specially with director Mark Rydell Early 1970s to 1975: The "music for the disaster movies of Irwin Allen" era From Jaws on 1975 to Temple of Doom on 1984: The apex of his career as a film composer, on which he wrote some of his most beloved and iconic scores.. From The River on 1984 to Far and Away on 1992: The "trying new stuff" era. Not wanting to be known just as a action/adventure composer, William scored movies from more diverse genres such as Empire of the Sun, The Witches of Eastwick, Stanley & Iris, Always, Far and Away, along with the Oliver Stone movies and the Home Alone movies (which, despite their success at the box office, were less "fantastical" than most of Williams hits so far). More traditional blockbusters besides the HA movies were only The Last Crusade and Hook. From Jurassic Park on 1993 to The Patriot on 2000: An era on which Williams planted the seeds for later works, whether on action adventure movies (the JP franchise, The Phantom Menace, The Patriot) or on smaller drama movies (Nixon, Saving Private Ryan, Amistad, Seven Years on Tibet) From A.I. on 2001 to Munich on 2005: The era on which Williams music has a distinct, more modern sound. His music was introduced to a new generation with the Potters and Prequels, but they remained different from his 70s/80s classics, much like his dramatic stuff had a new, distinct flair (A.I., Minority Report, Memoirs of a Geisha, Munich). From The Kingdom of the Crystal Skull on 2008 to today: The later era of Williams music, that is a little more subdued, a little less "show-offy" and maybe a little more intimate. What do you guys think? Ricard, BuzzLightyear and Fabulin 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 1975 is the begining of his independence period for sure. @SteveMc at which year do we start his maturity period already? SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SteveMc 2,674 Posted November 29, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 29, 2019 This is how I divide his career. The 50s represents a student period, so I would keep that separate From about 1960-1974 we have the Early Period Here, Williams really began his career in the concert hall and for the screen. At first, he kind of divided the two fields, trying to write "serious" concert works and lighter film and TV works. As his concert career did not really take off, Williams seemed to begin to devote more creative energies to his dramatic works, now also using the name "John" for them. Jane Eyre perhaps represents his first fully mature work. The next period I call the Heroic Period which lasted from 1975 to about 1986 The death of his first wife, Barbara, is the event that divides the periods and, as Williams has said, marks a major turning point in his life and art. Williams's music in this period is marked by two things: subject material that reflects heroic themes and events, and characters; and, music that represents a struggle with and triumph over challenges in life. The transition piece here is the Violin Concerto, which, like his trio of disaster scores in a sense, deal with the emotions of a sudden calamity. After this, Williams seems to have become more personal in his music, even as he began scoring more and more high profile works. The intense forces of nature and exhausted triumph in Jaws. The reaching for something higher in the artisic triumph that is CE3K. The straightforward, ambitious heroics of the Star Wars movies, Superman, and Raiders of the Lost Ark, with their love themes that range from yearning, to acceptance (Death and Transfiguration quote in Superman) to romantic renewal. And, finally, the utter triumph and joy in the last sequence of E.T., where Williams, now at the pinnacle of American music, gives a symphonic statement that calls to mind the Finales of Beethoven's Heroic period. This period is followed by what I guess I can call the Reflective Period. This is a rather brief one, lasting from 1986 to maybe 1996. Here we find Williams thinking about his legacy, trying to craft music that can stand alone in a sense. He returned to more concert music writing. And, his film writing underwent a change to a more subtle approach. Scores like Empire of the Sun, Born on the Fourth of July, and Schindler's List are prime examples, but even his blockbuster scores, like The Last Crusade, Hook, and Jurassic Park are marked by this shift. For me, this represented Williams at his compositional peak. Next comes what I call John's Experimental Period, which started in about 1996 and lasted until 2005 or so. (KOTCS, and the late 00s concerti represent kindsof inter-period works) This period was marked by Williams beginning to be more eclectic in how he approached film projects. He began to be a little more adventurous with many scores, even more operatic, even, than he had been before. The Prequel Scores, A.I., and Memoirs of a Geisha are some prime examples. His concert works also began to really push the boundaries of modern romanticism. Finally, we have John's Late Period. Starting in about 2011, Williams started to write music that has felt a little reflective, where he has streamlined things, but has returned to a sort of straightforward vitality. Yet, the music he has written for film in this period are quite distinct from anything he has done before, even in recent years. Semi-retirement has allowed him to be more selective with his projects, and spend possibly some more time on them. Also, I find he has made strides in terms of structure in his concert works. Cerebral Cortex, Fabulin, The Illustrious Jerry and 6 others 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Well, we agree on the years, but what you call the Heroic Period, I call it the Independance Period, and what you call the Reflective & Experimental Periods, I call it the Maturity Period. SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 . SteveMc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,385 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Quite a few, but they are rarely neat and tidy like the above suggestions. Quite a few cross over into each other, since Williams has operated on so many arenas, also outside film music -- and one thing has influenced the other and vice versa. I have my own periods that I've charted out, from 1932-2019, but it's all too complex to lay out here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted November 30, 2019 Author Share Posted November 30, 2019 . SteveMc and Muad'Dib 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,385 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Ha, ha...something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMc 2,674 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 46 minutes ago, First TROS March Accolyte said: I wonder to what extent was Williams' "Reflective Period" shaped by the type of films Spielberg and Lucas, his formerly major employers, were doing. It was perhaps more of a reflective period for them. Well, even something like Home Alone has him writing a piece like "Star of Bethlehem" which seems to be very self-aware of its seriousness, without becoming self-important. Holko 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted November 30, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2019 It's really a lot simpler than most folks put it, but to each their own. Here's my response: Period 1: pre-Seven Years in Tibet Period 2: Seven Years in Tibet (c. 1997) Period 3: post-Seven Years in Tibet To make it a little easier to interpret I've created a three act plot diagram of John Williams' career from my point of view. crumbs, Bespin, Ricard and 11 others 4 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 🤣🤣🤣 That’s almost that, but for very sentimental reasons I would use Sabrina instead! The Illustrious Jerry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,385 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Ha, ha....good one, Illustrious Jerry. Although all jokes aside, SEVEN YEARS IN TIBET is actually symptomatic for one of these 'sub periods' or 'sub categories' in Williams' history that I've charted out -- what I call the 'cello period' (roughly from the mid 90s to the mid 2000s) and his extensive work with Yo-Yo Ma in both film and concert music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 796 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 For me: 1959-1974: The early years 1975-1982: The creative peak years 1983-1993: Succesful years, with some creative peaks (Born On The Fourth Of July, Home Alone, Jurassic Park, Schindler’s List, ...) 1994-2005: Slightly darker, more personal years, with some creative peaks (A.I., Harry Potter) 2008-present: The latter years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor 7,385 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I love how many of you group 1959-1975 as simply his "early years". That period has SO many different aspects and sub periods and evolutions; perhaps more than any other in his musical life. MikeH 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Before and after Jane Eyre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 1,799 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 22 minutes ago, Thor said: I love how many of you group 1959-1975 as simply his "early years". That period has SO many different aspects and sub periods and evolutions; perhaps more than any other in his musical life. There is an interesting 1991 John Caps article ("John Williams: Scoring the Central line") that divides Williams' periods as follows: a) his jazz and comedy apprentiship beginning with Checkmate (1959) and ending with A Guide for the Married man (1967) b) apparent transition into serious scoring with the Reivers (1969) culminating in Jaws (1975) c) unprecedent reign as the most successful film composer in history from Star Wars (1977) to E.T. (1982) d) his gradual mellowing in later 1980s into a refined romanticism which was sentimental in Accidental Tourist (1988), peaceful and tempo-less like New Age dream in Always (1989), pianistic and ceremonial in Presumed Innocent (1990). Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naïve Old Fart 9,449 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Two stages: Close encounters of the Third Kind. The rest. Ricard and Bespin 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lairdo 725 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I think there is an interesting parallel to (although not identical to) Williams' performance periods. I am including playing, band leading and arranging (for other people's music) 1950's-1965 - Keyboard/Band Leader: Jazz player / film score session pianist - here I include his own band, the work at Fox, playing for Henry Mancini & Elmer Bernstein, Shelly Manne, Mahalia Jackson and his work with Previn on various albums. 1965 - 1979 - Quiet Period: Occasional performance work including his mostly arranging work on Valley of the Dolls and Fiddler, the Paul Williams album and his classical piano duet Serge Prokofiev: Sonata for Cello & Piano; David Ward-Steinman: Duo for Cello & Piano. 1980 - 1993 - A Performance Conductor Emerges: Boston Pops leadership period. Also includes leading things like the LA Olympic Opening Ceremonies and Oscars telecasts. 1993 - 2015 - Conductor Emeritus I: Regular Boston Pops, Tanglewood, Hollywood Bowl and other full concerts 2015 - Present - Conductor Emeritus II: Handful of performances each year, often splitting duties with another conductor Ricard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabulin 3,505 Posted November 30, 2019 Author Share Posted November 30, 2019 . Edmilson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post The Illustrious Jerry 3,356 Posted November 30, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted November 30, 2019 For @Bespin. Bespin, _deleted_ and Jurassic Shark 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Montre 79 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 I’m loving the different names for his 1990-2005 period. It is my favorite period of his by a wide margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,205 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Two periods. 1932-2011 making some progress in composing 2011 - 2024 the best mature era Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bespin 8,457 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Personally, I'm currently in my OOP period. Jurassic Shark and _deleted_ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,382 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 The Early Period The Heroic Period The Reflective Period The Experimental Period The Late Period I like that categorization, @SteveMc. Of course the transitions are not crystal clear, but that is a good ground for a more profound analysis. Ricard and SteveMc 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmilson 7,265 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 8 hours ago, First TROS March Accolyte said: Conductor Emeritus II is one of the greatest sequels ever It's better than Conductor Emeritus 3D, for sure, but not as good as the surprising fourth part of the saga Conductor Emeritus IV: The Revenge. Fabulin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ludwig 1,120 Posted December 1, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 1, 2019 I came up with a breakdown of Williams' film output into style periods for an academic chapter I wrote on Williams' theme writing a couple of years ago. It was in John Williams: Music for Films, Television, and the Concert Stage. See below. There are several points supporting the divisions between the periods, but my study of his theme writing further bolstered them. Basically, I took one theme from each of his films to be the "main" one (if he composed the theme, of course, so excluding those based on others' pop songs or musicals) and included a primary new theme from any sequels. What I found was that: Whereas in the first period, Williams' main themes tended to state an idea and repeat it (e.g., Daddy-O, The Man Who Loved Cat Dancing, and The Poseidon Adventure) Williams' second period showed a marked shift towards themes that stated an idea then varied it (e.g., Superman fanfare, E.T., Imperial March). I think this is something we all kind of know about Williams' style, and it really became apparent in this period. While the first two periods showed an overwhelming preference for long-lined themes based on 8-bar models, his third period regularly included either much shorter themes (like Nixon, Amistad, and Minority Report) or ones that are more amorphous because they're drawn out way beyond a more regular 8-bar model (e.g., the dinosaur theme in Jurassic Park, Duel of the Fates, and Catch Me If You Can). The fourth period shows a return to the long-lined theme as the norm, the sole exception thus far being Tintin's motif from The Adventures of Tintin. I did this work to justify some further conclusions I made about Williams' theme writing and their associations in the film, but it was good to draw some divisions in his output. As others above have stated, you could certainly get more granular with further divisions, but the four I proposed seemed to me pretty convincing distinctions at a very broad level. And it seems many others here agree with 1975, 1993, and 2008 as new beginnings of sorts. Falstaft, lairdo, Disco Stu and 10 others 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brundlefly 2,382 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 6 hours ago, Ludwig said: And it seems many others here agree with 1975, 1993, and 2008 as new beginnings of sorts. Yes. And the difference between 2005 and 2008 is undeniably clear, unlike any of the other transitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 1,799 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 7 hours ago, Ludwig said: the sole exception thus far being Tintin's motif from The Adventures of Tintin I think I'll disagree with this. Tintin has a regular 8-bar theme. 4.17-4.30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falstaft 2,097 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 11 hours ago, Ludwig said: I came up with a breakdown of Williams' film output into style periods for an academic chapter I wrote on Williams' theme writing a couple of years ago. It was in John Williams: Music for Films, Television, and the Concert Stage. See below. Your chapter is a wonderful contribution to John Williams studies, and I'm glad you brought it up @Ludwig I know accessibility is a bit of a problem with this volume, given its steep price tag, but really, if you're curious about its contents, I urge you to get a copy (or, better, request your local library to order one)! 4 hours ago, filmmusic said: I think I'll disagree with this. Tintin has a regular 8-bar theme. I think I side with @Ludwig on this one. That statement you've linked to is quite exceptional, the only "extended" iteration of the Tintin main motif in the score, which is otherwise always treated as a 2 or 4 measures long motto--even in wonderful, broad instances like at the end of "Capturing the Plane." I take the climax of "Pursuit of the Falcon" to be a thematic transformation, rather than the definitive or purest form of the theme. In that sense it's quite similar to Kylo Ren's A-theme, which does get extended grammatical version at the end of the Last Jedi (well, 3/4ths of a grammatical theme...it's frustratingly stunted); but the "definitive" motif is still clearly just 2 or 4 bars. (There's also the question of how coherent the "Pursuit of the Falcon" climactic statement is as a 8-bar theme, given the internal modulation and the lack of a clear cadential final phrase, but that's getting quite into the weeds!!) Ludwig 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
filmmusic 1,799 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 34 minutes ago, Falstaft said: That statement you've linked to is quite exceptional, the only "extended" iteration of the Tintin main motif in the score, Well, there is an alternate main title music (not available in recording), that uses the exact same iteration of Tintin's theme as soon as the title appears, so I used this as the "original pure theme". of which we hear snippets here and there in the film. This "heroic" version (it states "heroically" in the sheets in both instances) sounds like having a too clear profile to be a metamorphosis of a main motif. At least to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay 37,042 Posted December 11, 2019 Share Posted December 11, 2019 pre-Barbara's death post-Barbara's death _deleted_ and The Five Tones 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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